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Vegetables
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Message 1.Â
Posted by stalteriisok (U3212540) on Saturday, 5th January 2008
no - not thatchers cabinet !!
what vegetables were available during the Roman occupation ??
out of cauliflower, radishes, cabbage, carrots, swedes, parsnips, turnips, sprouts, broccoli etc etc
how many were available - if they werent - when and where did they come from
obviously potatoes have a well known origin
ST -
Message 2
Posted by TwinProbe (U4077936) on Saturday, 5th January 2008
I assume you mean available in Britain. I'm no botanist but I can tell you what is generally believed. Aside from wild parsnips and field mushrooms few vegetables are native to Britain.
Peas were part of a Neolithic package. The following are thought to have been introduced in the late Iron Age or Roman period. Some may have been introduced on more than one occasion.
Leeks (Egypt)
Onions (Egypt)
Garlic (Egypt)
White raddish (Egypt)
Turnip (Persia)
Lettuce, cabbage, broccoli (Persia)
Broad Beans
Vines, walnuts and chestnuts were Roman introductions but were marginal in Britain's climate. Almonds, figs, olives apricots and pomegranates could not be grown commercially.
As well as potatoes post-medieval S. American introductions included:
Potato
Tomato
Runner Bean
Maize
Peppers (capsicum)
Sunflowers
Peanuts
Good eating!
TP -
Message 3
Posted by stalteriisok (U3212540) on Monday, 7th January 2008
TP
thanx
amazing we only had turnips - all the others grow here with no problem tho!!
"I'll have the steak with turnips and mushrooms then please"
no spam then lol
st -
Message 4
Posted by fascinating (U1944795) on Tuesday, 8th January 2008
Don't know what you mean by turnips - the Brits did not have them until the Romans came.
Yes, the Romans transformed, for the better, the diet of the native Britons. -
Message 5
Posted by Jim Reuss (U10298645) on Tuesday, 8th January 2008
Salteriiosk, Your post made me smile, as it reminded me of a skit I once saw on the show, "Spitting Image", in which Margaret Thatcher and her cabinet members were dining at a restaurant.
Mrs. Thatcher: (to the waiter) I'll have steak and a baked potato.
Waiter: What about vegetables?
Mrs. Thatcher: They'll have the same. -
Message 6
Posted by stalteriisok (U3212540) on Tuesday, 8th January 2008
j-reuss
aha thats because it was precisely that sketch that my opener was based on lol
its still one one of my favourites !!
st -
Message 7
Posted by Alaric the Goth (U1826823) on Friday, 11th January 2008
I’m sure that Ray Mears would point out a few other vegetables that were eaten in Britain before the Romans! Some of which he ands others are attempting to get us to eat again.
Those which spring to mind are wild garlic, wood sorrel (‘shamrock’), nettle, salad burnet and seaweed (‘laver’ and one or two other kinds).
And ‘mushroom’ does not do justice to the cornucopia of edible fungi that exists in our woods and fields. -
Message 8
Posted by fascinating (U1944795) on Friday, 11th January 2008
A rather sorry-sounding list in comparison to those brought to us by the Romans.
Do you know of any fruits that the iron-age Britons had access to. -
Message 9
Posted by stalteriisok (U3212540) on Friday, 11th January 2008
surely blackberries - they are everywhere in my garden
i started this post after we had prepared a cauliflower for dinner and my daughter asked the thread question lol
next question is - the cauliflower prepared was the middle white bit (florets) - the rest - leaves and stalks were binned -
in times past (until 1950s ?) would all the bits have been used - surely everything was used - nothing was trimmed and binned
sprouts - we take the outer layers off - potatoes, carrots etc we peel - surely its only a recent thing ??
st -
Message 10
Posted by TwinProbe (U4077936) on Friday, 11th January 2008
"Dearly beloved, isn't it a sin?
When you peel potatoes you throw away the skins.
The skins feed the pigs and the pigs feed you.
Dearly beloved isn't this true?"
What an interesting question. When did we start peeling vegetables? The skins are perfectly wholesome of course. In the past the neglected pieces of vegetable could be fed to pigs or hens, or added to a stock pot kept on the simmer. Even adding the outer portions to a compost heap would be helpful. I guess today that these arts are rapidly passing into oblivion.
Of course Alaric was correct to mention the marvelous fungi - but mistakes in identification lead to a fair number of cases of liver failure every year. Maybe they knew more in the Iron Age, or maybe (thinking of the Emperor Claudius) they didn't.
Best wishes,
TP -
Message 11
Posted by Hossam-Aboulfotouh (U2914961) on Monday, 14th January 2008
What do you know about the ancient history of the eggplant? The wiki enclouds quit some information on it; do you eat it in England in these days?
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Message 12
Posted by Hossam-Aboulfotouh (U2914961) on Monday, 14th January 2008
Sorry, I meant the wiki includes some information on it, and in Netherlands they do not eat it.
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Message 13
Posted by islanddawn (U7379884) on Monday, 14th January 2008
I see the people in the Netherlands have very discerning tastes regarding their vegetables.
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Message 14
Posted by Hossam-Aboulfotouh (U2914961) on Monday, 14th January 2008
In my limited experience the dutch people don't eat eggplant; 16 years ago, in the dormitory of one the universities in Netherlands, during one of the weekly social evenings that during which every body were asked to cook one of his local food, one of our Dutch colleagues, in the university, told us that her father have a ranch, and the eggplant is one of its main products. I asked her how you cook it here, she said we do not eat it and we do not know how to cook it, I said unbelievable; it is one of the most delicious foods. She said do you know how to cook it, I said yes, brings me some and I will show you; the next time she went to visit her family in that ranch she brought with her 3K, I cooked them, and when she and the rest of the colleagues tested it, they finished it at once, and I wrote for them how to do it.
This is not all about that particular thing; there is something more and perhaps mysterious to say on the eggplant in the ancient Egyptian history, let me write it. -
Message 15
Posted by Hossam-Aboulfotouh (U2914961) on Monday, 14th January 2008
In the temple of Denderah, there is a picture from the days of the fourth dynasty, see it below in that link,
Some had thought it's a lamp because they could not read what is written there, and made some hypotheses about it as you may read. It is a picture of two eggplants, that inside each of them, there is something like a snake; what do you think it meant, from your point of view? -
Message 16
Posted by islanddawn (U7379884) on Tuesday, 15th January 2008
They don't look like eggplants to me, wrong shape. More like zuchinni. Or are they another plant altogether and the snakes are used to express that the plant is poisonous. Well I suppose the same expression could be made about eggplants too!
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Message 17
Posted by Jim Reuss (U10298645) on Tuesday, 15th January 2008
TwinProbe,
In the past year I read an interesting book on the development of our culinary habits and cuisines from the Middle Ages to the present. Unfortunately I can't remember either the author's name or the book's title. It was a French professor (female), and the main idea was how the European understanding of food and food preparation has changed over time due to elements of social conditioning and a desire to emulate the status diets of the wealthier classes. -
Message 18
Posted by PaulRyckier (U1753522) on Tuesday, 15th January 2008
Twinprobe,
I add to J. Reuss, but it is mostly in French, I wonder why?
And it is not a female: Bruno Laurioux: Une histoire culinaire du Moyen-Age (a culinary history of the Middle Ages).
Histoire de cuisine et des cuisiniers (History of the kitchen and the kitcheners) Jean-Pierre Poulain and Edmond Neirinck Delagrave 2004 ISBN2206032929
In English translation: "Food: A Culinary History" by Jean-Louis Flandrin.
Warm regards to both,
Paul. -
Message 19
Posted by Jim Reuss (U10298645) on Tuesday, 15th January 2008
Thank you Paul, though it is disturbing to find that my memory is so faulty regarding the author.
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Message 20
Posted by PaulRyckier (U1753522) on Tuesday, 15th January 2008
J,
in fact you can be right with your memory. After all there are soooo many Frenchmen and Frenchwomen (Françaises) writing about culinary items. I wonder why.
Warm regards from your friend,
Paul. -
Message 21
Posted by TwinProbe (U4077936) on Tuesday, 15th January 2008
I'm really sorry to say that culinary history is not really my thing. To be frank I find cooking vessels more interesting than their contents. Despite this I'm sure plenty of French speaking readers will be taking note.
With thanks,
TP -
Message 22
Posted by Jim Reuss (U10298645) on Wednesday, 16th January 2008
"...there are soooo many Frenchmen and Frenchwomen (Françaises) writing about culinary items. I wonder why."
I'm guessing it's because that good food is one of the great pleasures in this life, and therefore worthy of examination, as well as appetite.
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Message 23
Posted by Hossam-Aboulfotouh (U2914961) on Thursday, 17th January 2008
Re 16: You may see it zucchini, no problem; but the poison inside the eggplant or the zucchini, as you have suggested, might be the immediate meaning of that image. Why he made it in the form of symmetrical portrait: one for the Jed (male) on the right side and one for Diana or Nadah (female) on the left side? Did he mean the event of poisoning, or something else?
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Message 24
Posted by Anglo-Norman (U1965016) on Thursday, 17th January 2008
Maybe they knew more in the Iron Age, or maybe (thinking of the Emperor Claudius) they didn'tÂ
Allegedly it wasn't so much the mushrooms as what a kindly poisoner added as seasoning that carried off Claudius.
So when did carrots arrive - do we have the Normans to thank for them? -
Message 25
Posted by TwinProbe (U4077936) on Thursday, 17th January 2008
Hi Anglo-Norman,
Don't take my pitiful attempts at humour too seriously. I believe that the orange carrot was created by Dutch horticulturists as a compliment to the House of Orange and introduced in the 17th century.
Regards,
TP -
Message 26
Posted by Sambista (U4068266) on Friday, 18th January 2008
I'm 90% certain that wild carrots are native to Britain, and can still be bred up by selection in a couple of generations to be of culinary size. Fat Hen and a number of other "weeds" - including Ground Elder - can be cooked and eaten as spinach. Field beans (tic beans or horse beans) are thought to have been a major foodstuff in this country in Iron Age (pre-Roman) times. Like broad beans, they are actually a vetch rather than a bean or pea.
Re cauliflowers. The green is the best part! We only cut away the "woody" bits of the core, and any really tired or tatty outside leaves (which we stick in the hen run as an activity centre). Similarly, the sprout top is the best part of the plant. The woody stem gets cut into chunks for the rabbits to eat. -
Message 27
Posted by RainbowFfolly (U3345048) on Friday, 18th January 2008
Hi Urnie,
ummm... These weeds - have you any idea what they taste like through experience? If they're palatable, I wouldn't mind giving them a try - or at least "letting" my friends try them first.
...any really tired or tatty outside leaves (which we stick in the hen run as an activity centre).Â
That's just like me when I was a child at Christmas - more interested in the box and packaging than the toy that was inside...
Cheers,
RF -
Message 28
Posted by Sambista (U4068266) on Friday, 18th January 2008
The only three I've eaten are
1) Nettles. Young stinging nettles (before they go all string & wooden) are fine in a soup or stew. Not tried them on their own.
2) Dandelion. As a salad, but needs blanching (stick a flower pot over the leaves. Wait until leaves are thoroughly etiolated before picking). As part of a mixed leaf salad, this is fine, very like chicory. Don't eat too much, especially late at night, as it is a powerful diuretic, hence its French name, pissenlit.
3) Sorrel. again can be added to leaf salads (has a definitive "sour" tasteall of its own) or in soups.
Well worth finding out the Latin names of wild plants. Any that have a second name of "officinale" are or were once considered to be edible, so become candidates for "food for free" entusiasts.
Nuts. Should have said 4 - I've eaten laver bread for breakfast. Not wildly keen on it, though.
I suspect that to modern palates most would be like Paul Hogan's comment in Crocodile Dundee - You can live on it, but it tastes like dung" -
Message 29
Posted by generallobus (U1869191) on Friday, 18th January 2008
Urnungal
Try those young shoots of nettle briefly held over a bbq flame. I saw Ray Mears doing it and thought I'd have a go. Delicious. -
Message 30
Posted by RainbowFfolly (U3345048) on Friday, 18th January 2008
Cheers Urnie - don't suppose you know of any relevant books or websites? I'm assuming I'll need NHS Direct immediately after eating the young shoots of nettles that I've "briefly" held over a cigarette lighter and found that I've started talking like Marlon Brando in "The Godfather"...
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Message 31
Posted by Sambista (U4068266) on Friday, 18th January 2008
Richard Mabey's "Food for free" is probably the easiest to lay hands on.
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Message 32
Posted by generallobus (U1869191) on Friday, 18th January 2008
Rf
I thought the nettle idea was a bit suspect so I got my girlfriend to try one first - I'm so gallant. The flames got rid of the hairs and nasty stinging acid and left the shoots tasting really nutty. Try it this spring, you'll be surprised how good they taste. -
Message 33
Posted by Sambista (U4068266) on Friday, 18th January 2008
Tell you one we've all missed - water cress.
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Message 34
Posted by islanddawn (U7379884) on Friday, 18th January 2008
Dandelions are also great if you blanche the leaves for about 2mins in boiling water, then add a little olive oil, lemon juice & sea salt. Very popular in Greece.
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Message 35
Posted by Sambista (U4068266) on Friday, 18th January 2008
If they are in grease doen't that suggest you've overdon the olive oil?
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Message 36
Posted by RainbowFfolly (U3345048) on Friday, 18th January 2008
Hi IslandDawn,
Can I eat the dandelions that grow up through the cracks in my patio? I do like the sound of them in olive oil, with a splash of lemon and salt.
Cheers,
RF
p.s. sssshhhh.... Don't tell her, but I think you're a better singer than Priscilla - and unlike her, you'd never throw Mariah-Carey-like tantrums if you ever got left out of the kitty-chorus... -
Message 37
Posted by TwinProbe (U4077936) on Friday, 18th January 2008
Hi Urnungal,
Only a minor piece of pedantry but I believe that 'officianale' in a botanical name means that the plant was once in a pharmacoepia, not that it was edible.
Many of such plants are indeed edible eg dandelion, ginger, rhubarb, and lemon balm (Melissa officinalis) is sort of edible. I'm not sure what happens if you eat Lungwort or Eyebright, but Vincetoxicum officinale (Ipecacuanha) is decidedly sick-making. Mandrake (Mandragora officinalis) can be fairly deadly, if over-indulged!
Best wishes,
TP -
Message 38
Posted by islanddawn (U7379884) on Friday, 18th January 2008
Very funny Urnungal, it must be Friday!
Hi RF
I don't see why you can't eat your patio or urban dandelion, although probably not a good idea if you have sprayed some weed killer (the lazy gardener's choice) beforehand! Greeks pick their dandelions from the fields, so why not from patios too! Actually they use a lot of things here that grow wild, sage & camomile for tea, oregano, fennel, thyme, capers etc. -
Message 39
Posted by islanddawn (U7379884) on Friday, 18th January 2008
"p.s. sssshhhh.... Don't tell her, but I think you're a better singer than Priscilla - and unlike her, you'd never throw Mariah-Carey-like tantrums if you ever got left out of the kitty-chorus..."
I think you are getting in pretty deep water here RF! -
Message 40
Posted by RainbowFfolly (U3345048) on Friday, 18th January 2008
I will still need to wash the fox urine off the dandelions first though right?
I think you are getting in pretty deep water here RFÂ
And here was me thinking I was a landlubber digging myself into a deeper and deeper hole!
It sounds like my plan of using that old horse chestnut of divide and conker on you kittens has failed...
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Message 41
Posted by islanddawn (U7379884) on Friday, 18th January 2008
If you prefer the taste & smell of ammonia with your mountain greens or horta (in Greek), then go for it.
Kittens we may be, but we didn't come down with the last shower either! -
Message 42
Posted by priscilla (U1793779) on Friday, 18th January 2008
Oh my God, RF. you're Bruce Forsythe in disguise..... all that guff about 'you're my favourite'
Deep water indeed. Eat your celery from good ol' Sicely for which one or the other is named and see what that does for you.
Not mt best regards, P. -
Message 43
Posted by RainbowFfolly (U3345048) on Friday, 18th January 2008
Sorry, I got a bit tongue-tied. What I really meant to say was that you're both better singers than Caro...
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Message 44
Posted by islanddawn (U7379884) on Friday, 18th January 2008
Is there no end to your cheek!
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Message 45
Posted by RainbowFfolly (U3345048) on Friday, 18th January 2008
It was all Nordmann's doing - he held a loaded gnu to my head. I don't know if you've ever faced a loaded gnu but their breath smells so bad a man will agree to pretty much anything...
RF -
Message 46
Posted by Hossam-Aboulfotouh (U2914961) on Friday, 18th January 2008
Is any body there specialized in botany?
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Message 47
Posted by Backtothedarkplace (U2955180) on Friday, 18th January 2008
Is any body there specialized in botany?Â
No, sorry. Will bestiality do instead? -
Message 48
Posted by Hossam-Aboulfotouh (U2914961) on Friday, 18th January 2008
Bestiality is a very known trend of arts. Are you following that trend? Tell me more.
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Message 49
Posted by Hossam-Aboulfotouh (U2914961) on Friday, 18th January 2008
I meant how you deal with vegetables, using that trend?
You know, Van Gogh, in his masterpiece the Potato Eaters, did use different trend, what would you do If you was him, grafting the meaning of poverty, in such portrait, using the Bestiality trend? -
Message 50
Posted by an ex-nordmann - it has ceased to exist (U3472955) on Saturday, 19th January 2008
Don't make me use my gnu again!
Van Gogh's The Potato Eaters is a seminal piece of vegetable art and has nothing really to do with poverty, or ears for that matter. It is a paean to the tuber and its subterranean qualities (subtly implied by putting a bottom edge to the painting). The man was a genius with potatoes, even if you had to speak to his right side when ordering a bag of chips. And, incidentally, a wizard when it came to batter burgers. The world might have prematurely lost a great artist in his passing, but Ecclesfield lost its greatest provisioner of one-and-ones in western civilization.
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