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Ancient British chewing with German chompers?

• Message 1.Ìý

  Posted by an ex-nordmann - it has ceased to exist (U3472955) on Sunday, 21st October 2007

  A recent edition of "Making History" on Radio 4 mentioned some research done a few years ago on skeletal finds in Norfolk from the late Roman period that indicated, from an examination of the tooth enamel, that the teeth's owners, although nominally British upon burial had been born in Germany. The research apparently supports the view that the Saxon inroads into British territories was in full swing way before the Roman army's withdrawal.
  
  Does anyone know more about this research? How definitive were the conclusions? How many bodies were examined to reach such an emphatic claim? And probably most interestingly, how does enamel indicate German birth?

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• Message 2

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  Posted by Triceratops (U3420301) on Sunday, 21st October 2007

  Hi Nordmann,
  
  It's something to do with the formation of the tooth, makes it possible to identify the area the person was born and raised.
  This site will explain it better;
  
  
  
  Trike.
  

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  Posted by an ex-nordmann - it has ceased to exist (U3472955) on Sunday, 21st October 2007

  Interesting, Trike, thanks. But even the graph used to illustrate oxygen isotopic values in drinking water on the website shows that the Norfolk pattern today would correspond with huge swathes of Western Europe. Given that water content in this sense would change only at a geological rate, would it not have been true that the same applied in the 4th century, and that therefore the claims are rather brave?
  
  I hope not myself, being a great fan of the notion that the Saxons & Co arrived in droves and with Roman blessing long before their presence was announced as alarming, never having to "invade" as in the traditional version of events, but simply began to assert themselves politically after Roman withdrawal. But can so much be deduced from a few peoples' teeth, and from isotopic patterns that are not as geographically exact in their inference as to locate a tribal homeland?

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  Posted by Triceratops (U3420301) on Sunday, 21st October 2007

  I'm really not certain how it works Nordmann.I remember a programme with Francis Prior and they were investigating the skeleton of a young woman in Yorkshire.The enamel test identified her as coming from Scandinavia, I think the age date was the 6th century and they concluded she was an economic migrant.
  Maybe there is some way of narrowing the area down.
  
  Trike.

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  Posted by TwinProbe (U4077936) on Sunday, 21st October 2007

  Hi Nordmann,
  
  This is my sort of area. The heavy stable (ie non-radioactive) isotopes of strontium (87Sr/86Sr) and lead, and stable light isotopes of oxygen (17O/18O) have been widely applied to questions of residential mobility.
  
  The isotope 87Sr derives from 87Rubidium decay and the ratio (87Sr/86Sr) tends to reflect the underlying geology in specific areas. ‘Young’ low Rb containing rocks tend to generate low 87Sr/86Sr ratios; more Rb rich rocks generate higher ratios.
  
  The ratio between 17O/18O is based on climate rather than geology. As air laden with water vapour moves eastwards from the Atlantic over Britain and Europe it is progressive depleted of the heavier isotope 18O.
  
  The isotopes of Sr and O are bound in bone and tooth enamel. The bone is 'remodeled' in living humans over the last 10 years of life; tooth enamel remains unchanged chemically after first forming in childhood. Maps of stable isotope levels now exist for many parts of Europe. Examination of tooth enamel shows where the skeleton was born, and bone where is lived for the latter part of its life. These techniques have been applied to famous skeletons such as the Amesbury 'archer' and the Iceman.
  
  This is a rather simplified account. The science is often easier that the archaeological interpretation of the results. Will it do?
  
  Regards,
  
  TP

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  Posted by an ex-nordmann - it has ceased to exist (U3472955) on Monday, 22nd October 2007

  It more than does, I suppose TP, since I have absolutely no knowledge of this technique whatsoever.
  
  But I'm still puzzled slightly. How certain are the researchers that a particular ratio, or for that matter any particular level of oxygen isotopes, corresponds with precision to a particular geographical spot? Knowing that the climatic factor is so important to the process simply raises more doubts in my mind. At least geology is stable in the timeframes involved but climate, as we know, can be very erratic.
  
  For example, if Europe underwent a period of some decades when the predominant frontal movement by which air and rain are transported happened to waver to a south-western origin (as happened in the 1700s), then Germany would be the recipient of less precipitation and air that has been stripped of more of its heaver 180 isotope. Tooth enamel measurements would then have to shift correspondingly, wouldn't they? Or am I missing something?
  
  Given how relatively close Norfolk and Saxony are in climatic terms, could such an emphatic faith in what the tooth enamel reveals be misplaced? Could the same evidence not be used to signify that the people were born in Norfolk after all, and simply that Western Europe weather patterns during their childhood had led to drier weather in their locality more associated with the western extreme of the continental land mass?

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  Posted by priscilla (U1793779) on Monday, 22nd October 2007

  And were the remains of a resident? Is that proven? The Roman army was comprised of many recruits from mainland Europe. Doubtless many stayed on to settle and farm - a deserter,even. Or is that me being creatively simplistic again? I'll get a job on Time team if I keep this up.
  P.

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  Posted by Backtothedarkplace (U2955180) on Monday, 22nd October 2007

  Hi Nordmann, It cropped up in the programme Meet the ancestors a couple of times. They seem quite sure that its accurate. But Ive never seen a program outlines how it works although I think its something to do with the water being drunk in early child hood?
  
  I'd have thought they would have to have some sort of base line to follow ie people who they know for a fact were born in a certain area, the exact workings are probably beyond me.

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  Posted by TwinProbe (U4077936) on Monday, 22nd October 2007

  Hi Nordmann,
  
  You raise problems of interpretation which are highly pertinent to stable isotope analysis. The 17O/18O ratios from the Alpine area and Scandinavia are (working from memory) similar. If you found a skeleton on Salisbury Plain you would have to decide which area of origin was more likely on other grounds.
  
  Major climactic changes alter the results, indeed the same ratio in ice and sea-bed cores has been used to estimate average northern hemisphere temperatures. A definitive answer to the questions you pose would require a current practitioner I imagine, but I believe that Norfolk and Saxony are far enough apart for the techniques to work. It's not so much their climates are such, but their distance from the Atlantic that counts.
  
  Stable isotope analysis has other interesting uses. I'll avoid technical details (unless you are really keen) but these techniques have demonstrated when maize cultivation spread to North America (AD800-1000) and can distinguish between skeletons who ate a terrestrial diet from those who ate a largely marine diet.
  
  Regards,
  
  TP

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  Posted by an ex-nordmann - it has ceased to exist (U3472955) on Monday, 22nd October 2007

  
  It's not so much their climates are such, but their distance from the Atlantic that counts.
  Ìý
  
  That's the bit that puzzles me, since the term "distance from the Atlantic" refers to the distance the air (and water it bears) travels to arrive at a point, and not the physical distance of that point from the ocean. In certain conditions that could well prevail for one or more generations, the mean distance in those terms must therefore undergo severe distortion, rendering the technique unusable as a means of identifying birthplace without concrete knowledge of the climatic conditions that prevailed. I must be missing something. Forgive the stupidity if I am.
  
  Fascinating stuff though, I've been reading up about it since you brought it up and must now admit total confusion compounding my earlier ignorance!

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  Posted by Triceratops (U3420301) on Monday, 22nd October 2007

  Here are a couple of websites which may be of interest
  
  
  paragraph 3.12 refers to dental investigation.
  
  
  
  Trike.
  
  

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• Message 12

  , in reply to message 7.

  Posted by Docdogsbody (U6435748) on Tuesday, 23rd October 2007

  Priscilla,I think you are right,because,I have just been reading about Arminius (1ad til 19ad)who was in service in the Roman Legions(a Cherusker Furst),better known as "Herman der Cherusker")He could have well been in England before he turned on the Romans in his homeland and drove them back to the Rhine,and freed the North of Germany from the Romans.

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  Posted by englishvote (U5473482) on Wednesday, 24th October 2007

  priscilla
  
  And were the remains of a resident? Is that proven? The Roman army was comprised of many recruits from mainland Europe. Doubtless many stayed on to settle and farm
  Ìý
  
  I would have to agree, unfortunately I did not hear the programme that Nordmann is referring to. And I would also like a few more facts before jumping to conclusions.
  
  But the Roman army had many German recruits throughout its stay in Britain. Roman military units would have been transferred between different regions and a mainly German unit could easily have been transferred to what is now Norfolk.
  Any retiring Roman soldier would have received either land or enough money to purchase some land. Many would undoubtedly have remained within the province in which they had last served in. So to have found human remains in Britain that show the person to have been born in Germany and been buried in Britain is not exactly surprising.
  Of course if the remains were female then this would change the issue totally. But to base a theory of German migration prior to the Roman army leaving Britain on such circumstantial evidence cannot be wise. A German tooth does not a migration make!
  

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  Posted by TwinProbe (U4077936) on Wednesday, 24th October 2007

  Hi englishvote,
  
  Yours is a very important point, and it applies to any scientific test in archaeology. Once you have obtained a result you still have to provide an interpretation. As you correctly say a 'German' skeleton in East Anglia could be: a Roman soldier, a Saxon mercenary invited in by a British king, or a peaceable Saxon farmer.
  
  To help to differentiate between these possibilities we might be aided by an accurate date for the skeleton, or knowledge about the circumstances of the inhumation. There are difficulties in the calibration of radiocarbon dates between the Iron Age to the post-Roman period and I doubt if the date could ever be accurate enough to provide a determination. Really early Saxon burials in East Anglia tend to be urn cremations. If we were dealing with an actual skeleton the choice might therefore depend on the presence of Roman military equipment or the typology of a later Saxon shield boss or spear. If the skeleton in question was not an attended burial it would be worth studying any other adjacent material.
  
  It's a fascinating question but we really need more information, and even then the interpretation would be difficult.
  
  TP

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