Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔ

Ancient and ArchaeologyΒ  permalink

Was pre-Norman England a Feudal Society?

• Message 1.Β 

  Posted by OrganettoBoy (U3734614) on Tuesday, 27th March 2007

  I've always thought that feudalism in England was imported and imposed by the Normans. Is this so, or was there some sort of feudal society pre-exising in Anglo-Saxon England?
  
  How about Scotland. Was there feudalism in Scotland and if so was it imported (by whom)?
  
  How about in Wales and Ireland before Norman intervention in those lands?

  Link to this forum: Was pre-Norman England a Feudal Society?

  Report message1

• Message 2

  , in reply to message 1.

  Posted by an ex-nordmann - it has ceased to exist (U3472955) on Tuesday, 27th March 2007

  Most definitely not in Ireland where a loose tribal system of alliances had prevailed for centuries and wealth was still being measured in many parts in terms of livestock - meaning that the 'wealthier' kingdoms (and kingdoms is rather loose a terminology here) had 'vague' borders at the best of times, since large herds, on the move in search of pasture, tended not to over-respect political boundaries and often brought their owners in tow!
  
  The Vikings had introduced a rather stricter hierarchical administrative system but had failed to extend its use beyond their own territories, mostly fortified towns. Their introduction of commerce however had met with rather more success and by the time Strongbow & Co arrived the Gaelic chiefs had bought into the new system (literally) big time, and had begun amassing - and falling out over - material and territorial acquisitions valued in monetary terms.
  
  It is a moot point, but indications are that the old Gaelic system would have evolved into a form of feudalism simply because it would eventually have had to ape the predominant European power structures in order to survive. Alternatively one can argue that it was its failure to do so fast enough that led to its vulnerability once the Norman adventurers saw an opportunity to exploit its resources to their own ends.

  Link to this forum: Was pre-Norman England a Feudal Society?

  Report message2

• Message 3

  , in reply to message 1.

  Posted by HenryMartel (U2353098) on Wednesday, 11th April 2007

  The concept of fuedalism being a Norman invention imposed on England post-1066 is not borne out by the Doomsday book, which shows that to a large extent, the only thing that changed for the majority post-conquest was the name of the lord of the manor being Norman as opposed to Saxon. The fact is that by rewarding his loyal knights, William replaced the defeated Saxon upper and middle classes in most cases. The legacy of Norman rule was merely to formalise the existing structures of theins and villeins. The poor still were the slave labour of the landed, who themselves held land belonging to the king as reward for services such as providing soldiers in times of war. There is little difference in the actual structure of society after William in comparison to late Saxon class structure and division of land. The Normans indeed took the highly developed system of law and governance and used it to assert their own rule (with the addition of a large number of castles obviously).

  Link to this forum: Was pre-Norman England a Feudal Society?

  Report message3

• Message 4

  , in reply to message 3.

  Posted by an ex-nordmann - it has ceased to exist (U3472955) on Wednesday, 11th April 2007

  But it must be stressed that the Normans did effectively institutionalise feudalism to an extent that the Anglo-Saxon administration never dared, or possibly never could. William and his successors excised in short order two principles from the social structure that in effect had epitomised it - the Ceorl and the Hide. The Ceorl, a free man in the context of his times and representative of a class that had been the very backbone of the old administration, was made subservient to his feudal master to a degree that all but eliminated his class overnight.
  
  In a similar manner the Hide, a unit of land often managed by a 'Theow' (in theory a slave but in practise a person with legal rights, including that of holding enough land to support his family) had for centuries been the cornerstone around which the whole land ownership principle had been defined. So endemic was it to the English system that the 'Hundred Eolder' - he who 'managed' a hundred hides or more for his superior, the Earl - often had as much power, or more, than his supposed betters. Harold's dependency on this class when conducting his campaigns in 1066 are testament both to the Eolders' and, by extension, the Theows' influence, just as it is to the essentially agrarian character of the system over which he presided. Despite the crucial importance of the defence against Scandinavian and Norman aggression, Harold still had to concede to his soldiery from this class their right to go home and save their crops - a contingency that had quite a bearing on Harold's final muster for Hastings, a battle that coincided with just such a period.
  
  Under William the Theow became a serf and the 'Hundred Eolders' lost their position. The Hide reverted to being simply a small plot of land, in other words, and lost its political clout entirely.
  
  While it is tempting therefore to point to the upper echelons of society for proof that Norman feudalism was simply the old order under new management, it is to the lower classes and their all-but complete political annihilation that one must look to for evidence of how William's victory did indeed herald a transition from a society with a primitive but effective form of representation and diffusion of power, to the strict social pyramid that feudalism imposed with a large, powerless, slave class at its fundament.

  Link to this forum: Was pre-Norman England a Feudal Society?

  Report message4

• Message 5

  , in reply to message 1.

  Posted by Vizzer aka U_numbers (U2011621) on Tuesday, 5th June 2007

  How about Scotland. Was there feudalism in Scotland and if so was it imported (by whom)?Β 
  
  It was introduced in a formal way by David I in the 12th century. David had been raised at the court of Henry I in England and was thus imbued with Norman feudal thinking.
  
  Interestingly feudalism was only finally formally abolished in Scotland in 2004 as a result of the Abolition of Feudal Tenure (Scotland) Act 2000, the Title Conditions (Scotland) Act 2003 and the Tenements (Scotland) Act 2004.

  Link to this forum: Was pre-Norman England a Feudal Society?

  Report message5

Back to top