Ancient and ArchaeologyΜύ permalink
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Message 1.Μύ
Posted by OrganettoBoy (U3734614) on Monday, 26th February 2007
A question occured watching Time Team last night:
Who owns what is uncovered in an archealogical dig? I presume that generally it is the land owner unless it's treasure trove or whatever it's called that has to go to court to decide whether it belongs to the queen or not. What about skeletons? Again I presume that if they were christian burials then they get reburied in consecrated ground, but what about pagan burials?
Are there any artefacts that automatically don't belong to the landowner?
What about archaeolical digs under water (sea, rivers or lakes)?
Just curious, -
Message 2
Posted by thegoodbadugly (U2942713) on Monday, 26th February 2007
good question organettoboy,
in ireland the law is flexable as to say the government decides what you can keep and what you cannot,they decide what moneys you get in lieu of compensation which is always a fraction of its worth,
i think that you should be given market value for your find instead of the way things are. -
Message 3
Posted by stopmeandslapme (U1430972) on Monday, 26th February 2007
I would imagine the archealogists make private arrangements with the landowner over any potential valuable finds and probably donate the rest to the nearest decent museum once their study has been concluded.
Who said anything about ireland? This is the website of the BRITISH Broadcasting Corporation, there's nothing for you here. -
Message 4
Posted by thegoodbadugly (U2942713) on Friday, 2nd March 2007
stop me and slap me,are you in denial of your history in ireland,do they history books in england still to this day contain the history od everywhere else but ireland.
as for there is nothing for me here,i tend to agree with you sometimes as to the state of some of the posts posted here by you and others.
if you are british then why is there three countrys in britan like,what is exactly britan then.
and remember stop me and slap me this irish saying translated into english for you but you might be familiar with it anyway.
our day will come. -
Message 5
Posted by stopmeandslapme (U1430972) on Friday, 2nd March 2007
our day will come.Μύ
Is that a threat?
You're not going to send more travellers here are you?
Please don't. -
Message 6
Posted by generallobus (U1869191) on Friday, 2nd March 2007
"our day will come"
I could be wrong here but I think it's a republican phrase, roughly pronounced "chocky ar lar". -
Message 7
Posted by Mick Mac (U5651045) on Friday, 2nd March 2007
Stopmeandslapme said:
Who said anything about ireland? This is the website of the BRITISH Broadcasting Corporation, there's nothing for you here.Μύ
Why do you adopt this stance towards the Irish? Are you just prejudiced against Irish people? Or is it just our opinions sometimes annoy you?
There are many Irish posters on this site who have made, and continue to make, quality contributions to it, although some of the best of them have lately gone quiet. Should we all depart?
There are people from the U.S., Canada, India, Belgium, Germany, South Africa, Australia, New Zealand,, Denmark, Poland, etc., on this website (it is a WORLD WIDE website afterall). Is it just the Irish with whom you have a problem?
I take it, also, you are fully aware of the absurdity of including the people of Northern Ireland in your generalisation, or maybe it is only some of the people of Northern Ireland you object to - those who don't think like you. If your prejudice is directed at Irishmen from the Republic then really you should try to overcome it and realise that there is plenty to admire about the Republic and its citizens.
And that brings me to the concept of freedom of speech, a much cherished freedom in a democracy. Don't you believe in it? Or can't you hack it with Irish people on equal terms? You may feel that they are misguided in their views. You may feel educationally superior to them. Why not try and educate them, then? Best of luck to you.
As I say, freedom of speech and equal terms. I think this forum is an even playing field and there should be no room for personal attacks and exclusivity. That is for those who cannot argue the issues fair and square.
That is just my opinion, mind you! Hope you are not offended,
Paddy. -
Message 8
Posted by stopmeandslapme (U1430972) on Friday, 2nd March 2007
You foreign WUMs come onto this forum, which I pay for, and ruin it with your anti-English rants. Do you not have your own websites? I don't mind the genuine posters, I'm a big fan of Norman for example.
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Message 9
Posted by Mick Mac (U5651045) on Friday, 2nd March 2007
Stopmeandslapme said:
You foreign WUMs come onto this forum, which I pay for, and ruin it with your anti-English rants.Μύ
'Anti-English rant'? In reply to a general question about treasure trove and archaeological artifacts an Irish poster said:
in ireland the law is flexable as to say the government decides what you can keep and what you cannot,they decide what moneys you get in lieu of compensation which is always a fraction of its worth,...i think that you should be given market value for your find instead of the way things are.Μύ
How can you categorise this response as an 'anti-English rant'?!! Your response, on an international forum such as this, was to tell him he had no right to offer his opinion in the first place!
You also say:
Do you not have your own websites? I don't mind the genuine posters, I'm a big fan of Norman for example.Μύ
On the world wide web I go onto any site that grabs my interest and on which I can communicate competently with others. That is the nature of the web.
You say that you don't mind 'genuine' posters. Maybe the Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔ will give you a job weeding out the undesirables!
You further claim that you are a 'big fan of Norman'. I take it that you actually mean the 'Nordmann' whom you recently accused as follows:
As for bigotry, is that not the reason that you [Nordmann] hang around a foreign website messageboard dragging up historical grievances? I don't go on German websites having a go at them for half-flattening our capital city.Μύ
You seem to be confused as there is certainly no admiration implicit in this accusation, is there? I think most contributors would agree that Nordmann is unquestionably one of the most knowlegeable, impartial and exemplary posters on this forum (although he occasionally does have his moments!). But I can also admire your restraint in not going onto German sites attacking them over the war.
Apologies for taking this thread off topic. From now on I shall confine my remarks to history.
Paddy -
Message 10
Posted by Stoggler (U1647829) on Friday, 2nd March 2007
Stopmeandslapme
I also pay for this board and I welcome people from other countries as I feel their opinions and ideas can be enlighening and I might actually learn something. I for one am not for blinkered bigotry and open my arms to the varied and entertaining discourse that we often have here. -
Message 11
Posted by stopmeandslapme (U1430972) on Friday, 2nd March 2007
Paddy,
the person that you are defending had this to say in answer to the question "What became of English pubs?":
they are al crap thats why, when the english hooligans were trashing europe where were they singing and drinking, the irish bars thats where.Μύ
Is that an example of an anti-English rant by a foreign WUM or what?
As for Norman, he does seem quite knowledgeable although he could do with learning some civility. -
Message 12
Posted by thegoodbadugly (U2942713) on Friday, 2nd March 2007
stop me and slap me whats a wum,
i am sending loads of irish travelers to england as we speak the invasion begins now,so get your tin hat and your anti irish stick and dig your self a fox hole.
and as for what has become of english pubs they are all crap,if you remember euro 2004 where were all the english thugs standing and singing in the irish bar thats where,and what were they drinking guinness of course,
you do not seem to like irish people anyway,
and for the record i do not pay any money to the bbc for useing this message board and as far as i know neither do you this is a free board,
i pay for ntl which pays the bbc and itv to broadcast in ireland.
and for the record my girlfriend is polish and my nephew is half english and i have loads of cousins in england,so calling be a racist is a waste of your time,
any sign of those irish travellers yet.
to quote keith moon from the who -
Message 13
Posted by thegoodbadugly (U2942713) on Friday, 2nd March 2007
mind that drum kit.
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Message 14
Posted by widget (U2260877) on Monday, 5th March 2007
Hi there, take a look at the Portable Antiquities Scheme's website
Some really good info. -
Message 15
Posted by an ex-nordmann - it has ceased to exist (U3472955) on Tuesday, 6th March 2007
Who owns what is uncovered in an archealogical dig?
Μύ
In England, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland the law is the same. Archeological digs are conducted under licence and this licence is issued on the basis that the items removed become disposable property of an appointed agent of the state, almost always a museum run by the state, a university or college approved by such a museum authority or an agreed agent of comparable authority (sometimes a local authority, city corporation etc). The land owner has no ownership rights whatsoever but can be compensated by prior agreement or if he/she successfully prosecutes a compensation claim through the courts.
What about skeletons?
Μύ
The same law applies in all the above countries. In practise these are rarely retained in the possession of the appointed authority but are disposed of according to the circumstances. Human remains must also undergo a prior inspection by the police and/or coroner regardless of how old they might be deemed to be. There is no legal compunction to 'rebury christian remains' on consecrated grounds, though sensitivities in this area are most often respected.
Are there any artefacts that automatically don't belong to the landowner?
Μύ
All.
What about archaeolical digs under water (sea, rivers or lakes)?
Μύ
The same, if it is privately owned. Where the water is publicly owned the law is even more straightforward since compensation is not an issue.
Two things to add:
The above law covers licensed digs. In the case of accidental 'finds' the 'finder' in England and Wales can claim compensation up front. In Scotland and Northern Ireland the claim is met after a period in which the 'find' is assessed in terms of heritage value. Since 1996 in Ireland the finder has no great rights whatsoever.
Stopmeandslapme was wrong to so readily dismiss thegoodbadugly's reference to Irish law since it was the legal case following the finding of the Derrynaflan Hoard in Tipperary that precipitated the introduction of new Treasure Acts in all the countries on these islands. In that case the finders challenged the state's right of acquisition under 'bona vacantia', a hangover from the days of English law when this was interpreted as royal prerogative. In essence they were challenging English law, and their ensuing 1987 victory in the Irish High Court raised alarm bells as much in England as in Ireland. Ireland responded with the 1996 National Monuments (Amendment) Act and England and Wales with the 1995 Treasure Act. Both are worded in remarkably similar ways and both give their respective National Museum authorities a huge say in how trove should be disposed of. Northern Ireland and Scotland have vested this authority in a form of coroner's court but in essence have enacted the same laws. The only essential difference is that the Irish have effectively stopped use of metal detectors except under license while in the UK they are permitted but encouraged to report their finds since they are more readily assured compensation. In all cases non-reporting of 'finds' has been deemed to incur a penalty in proportion to the value of the find plus a hefty fine.
Of all the issues that could be possibly raised on this board which might highlight the value of contributions from outside the UK and in particular from the Irish Republic, this one (contrary to the notably bigoted opinion of one of the thread's contributors) is indeed of the utmost relevance in that respect, since the law as it stands at this moment in time on the Wiltshire Downs owes almost everything to events that accurred in a field in Killenaule, South Tipperary in 1980. -
Message 16
Posted by PaulRyckier (U1753522) on Tuesday, 6th March 2007
Nordmann,
thank you for this post.
Warm regards,
Paul. -
Message 17
Posted by stopmeandslapme (U1430972) on Wednesday, 7th March 2007
Norman,
the question was about archaeological digs, not accidental finds or metal detecting.
In England and Wales, one only HAS to report finds that either are gold or silver artefacts more than 300 years old or coin hoards (2 or more coins constituting a hoard). Is the rule the same abroad? -
Message 18
Posted by an ex-nordmann - it has ceased to exist (U3472955) on Wednesday, 7th March 2007
My answer concerned archaeological digs. I mentioned incidental 'finds' only because it was one such event in Ireland 27 years ago that led to the legislation governing archaeological digs now in the UK, and I would not have even bothered mentioning that if it had not been for your rather rude put-down of my compatriot's input in this thread with regard to its relevance (he is not always the maker of most relevant posts but in this case he was quite on subject for once).
In answer to your question however (and I am assuming from its phraseology that you either count Scotland and Northern Ireland as 'abroad' or assume their legislation to be the same as England and Wales) then the answer is that one would be very foolhardy indeed to assume an item's age without having it verified by an approved agent, even in England. England and Wales have the laxest criteria in that there is room for an 'honest mistake' in that regard. In Scotland the penalties are so high for non-compliance that one is almost forced to have the find evaluated officially. I am not sure if this must be done by an official of the office set up for this purpose or if one can simply go to the museum with it. In Northern Ireland they have begun to apply the law so strictly that it is resembling the Republic's own legislation regarding national monuments and treasure trove. I know of one case where someone was arrested when trying to move an unregistered find to Scotland to have it evaluated not knowing that it must be done in NI or that its relatively recent vintage (150 years) did not exempt it from being subject to verification in NI first.
Further abroad (ie. any country apart from Norway) I cannot vouch for. In Norway however, where no one to my knowledge pays Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔ licence fees, they are also remarkably free from the strictures that apply in the UK with regard to treasure trove. There is an obligation to report the find but compensation if it is 'acquired' by the state is considerable and quickly effected. -
Message 19
Posted by stopmeandslapme (U1430972) on Wednesday, 7th March 2007
The Irish law seems a bit harsh whereas the English/Welsh law seems a bit lax. I think 300 years old is a reasonable period to determine what is and what isn't significant however, in England it only applies to gold/silver artifacts. If say, I found an ancient English item of jewellery made out of bronze, there would be absolutely no requirement for me to tell the FLO. Also the number of coins that constitutes a hoard is 10 if the coins are of base metal, a hoard of 9 ancient English bronze Units would be exempt. On the other hand, I wouldn't expect a treasure trove inquest over every Roman bronze that was dug up. The law needs a bit of tweaking though it is up to the finder to apply some common sense. If every find over 300 years old were reported to the PAS and they had the responsibility to instigate cases of potential treasure trove that might be an improvement.
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Message 20
Posted by thegoodbadugly (U2942713) on Friday, 9th March 2007
has anybody ever dug up anything good that posts here,
if so lets know. -
Message 21
Posted by stopmeandslapme (U1430972) on Friday, 9th March 2007
Depends what you call good? My best find is an ancient English silver Unit featuring a head with braided hair on one side and a horse on the other.
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Message 22
Posted by Anglo-Norman (U1965016) on Friday, 9th March 2007
Treasure Trove (which was Common Law) doesn't exist anymore, having been replaced by the Treasure Act.
Human remains are hugely complicated. In essence, any human remains on Church of England property, including pre-Reformation, are the responsibility of the C of E. Immediate reburial is preferred, but if you wanted to lift them you would have to apply for a licence from the Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔ Office under the 1857 Burial Act (which could be sorted out in a day, usually, assuming the remains are over 100 years old)), but you'd also have to petition the relevant Diocesan Consistory Court under the terms of Faculty Jurisdiction. You would then have to argue your case in court. That process could take weeks or even months. The C of E has a strong presumption against disturbance of remains except for their own safety, or if there are good scientific or archaeological reasons. Even then, apart from in exceptional cases, the Consistory Court will only allow a set period for study before reburial.
Pagan burials used to be easier - you only needed a Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔ Office licence - but these days some pagan groups, particularly the Druids, are increasingly claiming they should have legal jurisdiction over all pagan remains. -
Message 23
Posted by OrganettoBoy (U3734614) on Friday, 23rd March 2007
Thanks for your replies.
What happens if i'd found a roman mosaic under my land? Presuming it would be reburied are there restrictions on what use the land could be put to? I.E. no building, no ploughing. If it is not dug up who owns the land above it? If I dug a hole and found this mosaic, do I have to report it even if I filled the hole in and left it alone (that is I found an architectural treasure but made no effort to remove it and then covered it up).
BTW, this is a theoretical question
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Message 24
Posted by an ex-nordmann - it has ceased to exist (U3472955) on Friday, 23rd March 2007
It all hinges on how dumb you want to play it afterwards should you rebury it and it later be found out that you had seen it. It also hinges on whether you approach your find as 'treasure' or 'monumental'.
Under the 1996 Treasure Act in the UK (excluding Scotland and NI) you have fourteen days to report to the coroner anything that you might have reasonable grounds to assume is 'treasure'. Under the law the definition of 'treasure' extends also to anything the Secretary of State decides on archaeological or heritage grounds should be included under the definition, and there's the legal nicety. For the Secretary of State to make the judgement the find must have been first reported to the coroner. But for the find to be reported to the coroner the finder must have grounds to believe it is treasure. If it is something that the finder feels is not treasure then it all becomes very messy indeed. So far the 'Codes of Practise' as set out by the Secretary of State are very much the same as what the law itself stipulates and are obsessed with coins and the like, so are not very helpful in deciding what should happen with your hypothetical mosaic, but should you regard your find as potential treasure yourself then at least the recommended action exists under the Code.
The Ancient Monuments and Archaeological Areas Act 1979 is a better bet for finding out what you should do next legally. Like the Treasure Act it is purposefully vague in its description of how actual finds might conform to what constitutes a 'monument',and again much is left to the discretion of the Secretary of State and his famous 'Codes of Practise'. This time however one of the generalities is that a 'monument' is any building or part of a building above or below the ground. It sounds almost laughably vague in fact, but in other words the onus is clearly on the finder to ensure that whatever they have unearthed is not a 'monument', and therefore the reporting of the find to the coroner within fourteen days is highly recommended, and nigh on cumpulsory. While the coroner is deciding no further excavation is allowed, nor any work that might impact on the find in any way. If it is deemed to be in fact a Roman mosaic, and therefore covered by the act on grounds of heritage, the next step (to excavate further, protect it as it stands, or do nothing) will be decided after an archeological assessment and a negotiation with the land owner re compensation for the disturbance, if any.
In both cases covering your find up and leaving it alone, if it was discovered later that you did so, could leave you open to prosecution on the grounds that you wilfully concealed treasure and/or a potential national monument with a view to disposing of the property personally at a later stage. -
Message 25
Posted by OrganettoBoy (U3734614) on Friday, 23rd March 2007
Cheeres Nordmann. I suppose it's complicated too by the fact that the monument may not be recognised for what it is, especially if it's in a bad state.
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