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Ancient French translation help

• Message 1. 

  Posted by Artorious (U1941655) on Tuesday, 20th February 2007

  Hi all
  
  I need some help translating this passage. I have the gist of it and most of the meaning but some of it escapes me. Anyone good at a mixture of ancient French and Latin. From the 15thC I think. It's a geneology of Brittany / Armorican kings, including some links to British/Welsh kings. It seems to confirm that Arthur had a sister called Emma, who maried Budic. It also mentions someone or something called Rinvallons Murmazou who I have no idea about. He/it appears in a context to do with Great Britain and the places Gollom and Gorethom. The other names mentioned are sound and I know of them and their history. What though has Rinvallon got to do with this. I dont understand the words properly linking him to the story. Could Rinvallon be something like Rhufon or somesuch?
  
  Celuy Constantin engendra troys filz, c'est
  assavoir Constans, Aurelius Ambrosius et Uter Pendragon, qui furent l'un après l'autre roys
  des Bretons de l'isle. Constans et Aurelie Ambroise moururent sans enffans, mais Uter engendra le preux roy Artur, qui luy succeda en l'isle, et Emme, qui fut royne de ceste Bretaigne, femme du roy Budic, filz Audran. Car apres la mort dudit roy Audran, frere ainsné du roy Constantin leur pere, dont est parlé dessus, regna en ceste Bretaigne pour luy ledit Budic, son filz, qui epousa ladicte Emme, fille Uter Pendragon et seur Artur, en laquelle il engendra Hoel surnommé le Grant, qui fut roy apres luy et acompaigna Artur son oncle a ses comquestes. Hoel le Grant engendra ung filz semblablement appellé Hoel, lequel degenera des vertus de ses antecesseurs, par quoy les princes particuliers de son royaume fistrent entreulx batailles, lesquelles je lesse a present pour brevité. Et partie en fut degastee par les Frixons.
  
  Mais quant ce vint a la cognoissance196 de Rinvallons Murmazou, qui demouroit es derrenieres isles de la Grant-Bretaigne situees entre Gollam et Goretham, il print199 sa porcion d'avec ses deux freres Urbienus et Donothus, qui tous troys estoient ducs et du lignaige royal,
  filz de Deroc, lequel Deroc estoit filz de Guitollius201, Guitollius filz de Urbienus, Urbienus filz de [f° 7r°] Cathonus, Cathonus filz de Geroncius. Et vint Rinvallons habiter la region de Alethense, a prèsent nommee
  Macloviense ou Saint-Maclou, dont il chacea les Frixons et se fist roy du pays.
  
  
  Ledit Rinvallons engendra deux filz nommez l'aisné Deroch et le puisné Caburnes. Deroch, qui regna apres Rinvallons son pere, engendra Ryathan ; Riathan engendra Jona; Jona engendra Judual et Judual engendra cinq filz nommez l'ainsné Juhael, le second Haelon, le tiers Deroch, le quart Doethuval et le quint Archael. Juhael, le premier filz Judual, qui luy succeda, engendra quinze filz et quinze filles ; et fut le premier appellé Judicael, lequel fut roy apres luy et est saint ; le second fut nommé
  Eoch, le tiers Eumahel, le quart Judhanoc, le quint Doethuval, le sixiesme Worhael, le septiesme Larhael, le huitiesme Rumas, le neufviesme Rinnaldus, le dixiesme Judhovoretus, le unziesme Haelon, le douziesme Judoch, le troyziesme Gueman, le quatorziesme saint Guenoc et le quinziesme Juhael, qui fut postume, c'est-a-dire qu'il207 nasquit2O8 apres la mort de son pere. Les noms des filles furent sainte Eurielie, Omenna, Bredoie, Guen, Cleor et Prust.

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• Message 2

  , in reply to message 1.

  Posted by PaulRyckier (U1753522) on Tuesday, 20th February 2007

  Artorious,
  
  I don't know about the stories.
  I only give a translation for what it is worth. It is nearly modern French IM
  
  Last part of first paragraph.
  Hoel the Great fostered a son, named semblably Hoel, who degenerated the virtus of his predecessors, by which the own princes of his kingdom made battles between themselves, which I don't name now (presently)for brevity.
  
  And a part of it (the kingdom?) was devastated by the Frisians? (the Germanics?, those from the North of France?)
  
  But when it came to the knowledge of Rinvallons Murmazou, who resided in the last? (last-called?) islands of Great-Britain situated between Gollam and Goretham, he took his portion, together with his two brothers Urbienus and Donothus, who all three were dukes and from royal lineage, son of Deroc, this Deroc was the son of Guitollius...and so on...and Rinvallons came to live in the region of Alethense, presently named Macovliense or Saint-Maclou from which he chased away the Frixons and made himself king of the land (country?)
  
  The socalled Rinvallons, fostered two sons, the oldest Deroch and the then-born Caburnes. Deroch, who reigned after his father Rinvallons, fostered Ryathan, Ryathan fostered Jona and Jona fostered Judual and Judual fostered five sons name the oldest Juhael..the second ...and so on...Juhael the first son of Judual, who succeeded to him fostered fifteen sons and fifteen daughters and the first was named Judicael, which one was king after him and was a saint? was holy?, the second was named ....the fifteenth, who was posthume, that's to say that he was born after the dead of his father. The names of his daughters were Sainte Eurielie....
  
  But I have only six names and the author said fifteen! daughters....
  
  Weren't daughters that important that you had to name not all of them
  
  Warm regards,
  
  Paul.

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• Message 3

  , in reply to message 2.

  Posted by Artorious (U1941655) on Tuesday, 20th February 2007

  Hi Paul,
  
  Fantastic, thanks. That seems to clear up my problems with the understanding of how Rinvallons is related to the others.
  
  So the way I read it Deroch and Caburnus are sons of Rinvallons. Still not sure though who he is in an historical sense. He should be Gudal / Guitol.
  
  Then there is the problem of Urbienes and Donatus being brothers of Rhinvallons. The Donatus could be Antonio / Anwn, son of Magnus Maximus. Urbiennes though is not listed as a son of Maximus. He is either son of Kynan or Kadien.
  
  This makes me think Rinvallon is Magnus Maximus possibly. He did indeed invade Gaul and chase off any Frisians. This would be about 383AD.
  
  Damn it I have it. I now know the whole relationship and why Deroch and Caburnus are stated to be his `fostered' sons. It is explosive and is the proof I was looking for!. I think a book may be in order if I can just get the time to write it.
  
  

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• Message 4

  , in reply to message 3.

  Posted by Artorious (U1941655) on Tuesday, 20th February 2007

  er.. just one problem. I dont know for sure that Rinvallons is Maximus. Need a bit more study there...Any ideas on that name? Could it be Owain Finddhu? Maximus' other son. Perhas that would make more sense. Urbienes I will have to ponder on.

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• Message 5

  , in reply to message 4.

  Posted by Artorious (U1941655) on Tuesday, 20th February 2007

  Ah I see where there is confusion. There is DeroC who appears to be father of the three brothers and has British ancestry, then there is DeroCH who appears to be fostered son of Rinvallon. All very confusing. More research needed but the answer is close.
  
  
  
  

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• Message 6

  , in reply to message 5.

  Posted by Artorious (U1941655) on Tuesday, 20th February 2007

  Ok, Rinvallons must be Riwal Mawr so Deroch is Deroch II. Deroc is Deroch I.
  
  

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• Message 7

  , in reply to message 3.

  Posted by PaulRyckier (U1753522) on Thursday, 22nd February 2007

  Artorius,
  
  although I don't know anything about these stories, I am so glad that I was able to help you.
  
  Warm regards,
  
  Paul.

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• Message 8

  , in reply to message 7.

  Posted by Artorious (U1941655) on Thursday, 22nd February 2007

  Hi Paul,
  
  Many thanks.
  
  I now know the whole shebang. I know who Arthur was, and to prove it I also know who Modred is. I can even tell you were Modred lived, his dastardly deeds, and he was most certainly an evil character and even where one of his victims is buried. I can also tell you the name of Arthurs son.
  
  I know who Vortigern was, and Vortimer. I also know who Uther was or wasnt.
  
  I have also dicovered the first british Pendragon,(not Uther) the reason behind the name,
  who used it and why.
  
  I also know who Hengist and Horsa were, where they came from, who they fought, exactly when they arrived.
  
  I can't tell you though any more of this as I have approached a book publisher. This is totally explosive. I am though looking for a co-writer as it is a big udertaking. Whats fascinating is that the myths behind all of this hold so many truths...they really do contain history.
  

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