Ancient and ArchaeologyΒ permalink
Giza Plateau's Mapping Project
This discussion has been closed.
-
Message 1.Β
Posted by Hossam-Aboulfotouh (U2914961) on Friday, 8th December 2006
Last Wednesday, December 6, 2006, there was a lecture by Mark Lehner in the American Researches Center in Cairo at 6pm. Despite it was a rainy evening and the streets were very crowding, I was eager to attend his lecture to hear what he talks about, and thus I was the first audient that entered the ARCE's conference hall at 5:10pm. It is a very intimate place and remained the same since I gave a lecture in it 10 years ago, on development policies for Historic Cairo. Mark was there with his assistance preparing the data show for his presentation; I seated in the first row without interrupting them. By 6:10pm he started his talk; there wasn't any empty chair in the hall. He showed us the progress of his project; and some of its outputs, particularly the survey maps of the village that he and Hawass claimed it was the settlement of the workers who built Giza pyramids. The man is excellent presenter, and he knows how to master the event by his amazing charisma and that makes every body awake during his talk. Afterwards, two of his assistance presented the outcomes of a training course that they organized for some young Egyptian archaeologists in the excavation site. Then Mark started to talk again to thank the members of his team, and introduced them for audience. The director of ARCE thanked Mark, and said now is the time for questions. One of the ladies asked Mark "do the trainees speak English? He replied "not all of them but we will handle that in the future." I was the second and last questioner. I asked him three questions, which came to my mind during his talk.
First, why they kept the temporary workers' village after completing the implementation of the pyramids? Usually if we built a mega project and built a temporary village for its workers, we demolish it after completing the project.
Secondly, from your survey maps, I noticed that the fabric pattern of this village is irregular and even, in the architectural plans of the buildings, the walls are not parallel and do not follow the axis, i.e., the rooms are neither perfect rectangular nor are they squares; it is unlikely the builders of this village are those who built Giza pyramids, with perfect geometrical accuracy and perfect cardinal orientations?
Thirdly, we know from the books of many ancient and medieval historians that Giza pyramids were built before the great flood, did you find any thing related to the great flood in the remains of this village?
I could not imagine that he will not be able to answer the three questions in a convincing way. For the first question he said this is a colony for workers. For the second question he said, while hinting to the irregular site plan, the walls are parallel and refused to show the audience the detailed architectural plans again. For the third question he said the great flood was mentioned only in religious books. Then ARCE's Director said, no more questions thank you.
On my way home, I was thinking on how to classify the value of this kind of excavation. No doubt, it is very interesting to see the physical plan of an ancient Egyptian village close to Giza pyramids; at least it shows many planning and architectural components of the living environment, either indoor or outdoor. However, saying it is the village of the pyramids builders lack the scientific evidence. I also, noticed that while Mark was speaking about the architectural and physical planning components of that village, he wasn't familiar with the architectural and physical planning language, thus he was not able to specify which building was for what function, he made very wrong assumptions; it seems that there are no experienced architects and physical planning academicians among his team of experts; all of them are archaeologists. Finally, one can say Mark and his team have done very excellent work, which could be the basis for further studding the architecture and physical planning of this village, i.e., in Master and PhD theses, in order to identify its land uses, its spatial structure, its core and secondary functions, and its economic base, using the social sciences that stand outside the realm of mere archaeological field.
Hossam Aboulfotouh, PhD. -
Message 2
Posted by Nik (U1777139) on Saturday, 9th December 2006
Hi Hossam. I have a mate with a PhD in Egyptology (who might had been in this conference since he must be in Egypt this time!) who is also the first that told me about the Egyptian myths regarding the pyramids and precataclysmic times.
My views about human civilisation and its evolution through time are quite known here (e.g. my strong belief in the existence of few relatively progressed cultures in precataclysmic times, i.e. a bit earlier than 10,000 B.C.). For many people that share the above basic idea, the pyramids consist of the first target to search since even ancient Egyptians themselves (... around 2000 B.C.!) pondered on how their ancestors had built such constructions.
However I do not jump into conclusions that easily easily. For example, archaic Greeks also pondered on how their ancestors built the walls of Tirynth and attributed them to Cyclops (!) in the same manner we ponder today how ancient citizens of Athens built the Parthenon in only 8 years (from scratch to finish) while today even the best of world-class construction companies would require the same or a bit more years to built something cheaper, less classy and not at all spectacular.
On the other hand your questions on such details as the "workers' town" are really very interesting and very constructive. If this town is supposed to be a town built for housing the workers that constructed the pyramids it has to provide with certain hints relating it to the construction of pyramids. A dating that gives similar era with the pyramids is simply not enough as the dating for the pyramids itself theoretically could be erroneous.
If that had been the "workers' town" it had to be quite populated... at least some 20-30,000 people. The population should had been in majority men. Most habitants should be of technical professions and that should be reflected in the findings (tools, materials etc.). Your point about the bad quality of housing is valid though there are explanations: e.g. that this was built in the beggining of the project in no time and without much organisation (if each built his own house himself) - who cares about workers anyway? On the other side, one could say that most workers were not slaves but experienced and highly skilled technical staff accompagned with high ranking officers that certainly could not tolerate living in low quality houses within an unorganised town (first of all, an unorganised town means common sanitary problems - cholera etc.). They would probably live in a village nearby but close enough to supervise the project - have archaiologists found anything like that?
We also know that the pyramids had been the national pride of Egypt while Sphinx had been covered almost completely with sand and excavated back in the mid-2nd millenia B.C. (i.e. the first known official archaiological project!!!!) thus it is known that Egyptians did some restoration, hence theoretically one could say that this village had been a later creation built for that reason especially if its size is smaller than the one expected for that kind of project. -
Message 3
Posted by an ex-nordmann - it has ceased to exist (U3472955) on Saturday, 9th December 2006
What 'Great Flood' is this that you keep referring to? The mythical one? There is no Nile flood that I am aware of that is referred to as 'the great' of its kind, so I assume that it is the biblical one you refer to. It sounds to me like Dr Lehner's response - given that he was obviously addressing an audience who he figured would be as grounded in pragmatic reality as his own discipline demands - was diplomatic in his response and quite correct. It makes me wonder also just what your own PhD is in, Hossam-Aboulfotouh!
-
Message 4
Posted by Hossam-Aboulfotouh (U2914961) on Sunday, 10th December 2006
Thanks Nickolaos for your comment; in the realm of physical planning, it is easy to identify the professions of those who planed the vernacular or spontaneous physical fabric, i.e., the irregular patterns. They are not engineers, architects, contractors, land surveyers or megalithicians. They had different profession completely far from the realm of construction. This is "a -b-c" in physical planning.
Nordmann, it seems that you too know very little about the great deluge of Egypt. Mark said the same thing, "I know only the Nile flood that comes every year, the great flood was mentioned only in religious books." I was not hinting to any religious books, as reference to my question. It seems that the archaeologists and historians of these days are not able to see, analyze and understand the huge amount of historic, physical and multi-disciplinary information that exist in our land and in our ancient libraries. The religious books give only few hints about the historic events without any kind to details. You cannot understand what is written there without having the opportunity to keep searching on them, till finding the missing parts. Let me give you an example; from the Bible, you cannot know what the profession of Moses was before he went to Sinai in the first time? What was his name in the ancient Egyptian language, and how to write it in Hieroglyphs? Where exactly he passed and Pheraon sunk, in the sea? The answers of these questions are not that difficult to those who knew the true history of the events that were occurred on the land of Egypt; any body will be amazed when he knows the answers of these three examples from your Bible; and the Bible, and the Quraan too, contain many of these knots.
To tell you more about the great deluge of Egypt, I would like to know your scientific back ground, in order to reply in the pragmatic way you seek. Besides, did you see the first and second questions are not pragmatic too? -
Message 5
Posted by an ex-nordmann - it has ceased to exist (U3472955) on Sunday, 10th December 2006
You cannot tell me about which flood you are referring to until you know my educational qualifications? Is it a secret?
-
Message 6
Posted by Hossam-Aboulfotouh (U2914961) on Sunday, 10th December 2006
No it is not secret; but you have built the knot and you must disassemble it.
-
Message 7
Posted by an ex-nordmann - it has ceased to exist (U3472955) on Sunday, 10th December 2006
What on earth are you talking about? What knot?
Was there a 'Great Flood' that happened only in Egypt then? When did it happen? -
Message 8
Posted by cloudyj (U1773646) on Thursday, 14th December 2006
"Secondly, from your survey maps, I noticed that the fabric pattern of this village is irregular and even, in the architectural plans of the buildings, the walls are not parallel and do not follow the axis, i.e., the rooms are neither perfect rectangular nor are they squares; it is unlikely the builders of this village are those who built Giza pyramids, with perfect geometrical accuracy and perfect cardinal orientations?"
Why would they workers care if their houses were perfectly square or had parallel walls? The need for exact alignment of the pyramids was important, not the alignment of a stone masons hut. I used to work on a construction site, the building we were building was built to very exacting specifications (just like the pyramids) and a lot of time an effort was spent following the plans exactly. However, our version of a workers village was a mass of portacabins sprawling over the nearby field where the deliverers had dumped them - the portacabins did their jobs perfectly and there was simply no reason to line them up neatly. This doesn't mean we didn't build the chemical plant. -
Message 9
Posted by cladking (U6255252) on Thursday, 14th December 2006
I am amazed at the difficulty of finding topographical information about the Giza Plateau and most of lower Egypt on the net. Maps of most sorts tend to be poor. Pictures of the area are sparse. Information from The Mapping Project is especially frustrating sometimes.
Much of the problem is the search engines are driven by money more than key words but it seems that some information about the pyramids is being withheld. Do you think this is the case? -
Message 10
Posted by Hossam-Aboulfotouh (U2914961) on Friday, 15th December 2006
Hi Cloudyj, the example you are hinting to, is not a planning model for workers village, you are speaking about scattered rooms, here and there, for few but normal people and not a village for 5000 persons at least, and among them live the best Architectonicians of Egypt at that time.
The fabric pattern of all ancient Egyptian workers' villages were regular of the class "linear-compact," and these types were planned by physical planning experts, the fabric pattern of jump growth. The fabric pattern of the village that Mark and Hawass claimed it is the workers village of the pyramids builders is irregular of the class "spontaneous-compact," the fabric pattern of incremental growth.
The key here is the right angle; who planned, using the right angle, no matter the direction of planning (not cardinal) axis is? -
Message 11
Posted by Nik (U1777139) on Saturday, 16th December 2006
If I got the full point above Hossam, in contrast to other existing Egyptian workers' villages that present a pattern of building that shows that they were created in a small period of time (i.e. within a project) while this workers' village in Giza presents a pattern that shows it was created and evolved slowly over time (i.e. not within a particular project) just like any other village. If this point hold true (based on findings and logic) then this is certainly not any workers' village.
-
Message 12
Posted by Hossam-Aboulfotouh (U2914961) on Saturday, 16th December 2006
Hi Nicolaos, what you have said is correct.
-
Message 13
Posted by cladking (U6255252) on Sunday, 17th December 2006
Dr. Hossam Aboulfotouh:
Are you familiar with the traditional explanation for the formations found around the pyramids such as those on the Amenemhat I's pyramid? These appear to be carved from natural stone. They even exist at Giza due south of the quarry. Are you familiar with the geological explanation for how these occurred? Have you observed any of these yourself?
Can you lead me to where to find information about them? Any information whatsoever would be extremely important to me. The only thing I'm pretty sure of at this point is that they are limestone because the sides are nearly verticle in some places. -
Message 14
Posted by an ex-nordmann - it has ceased to exist (U3472955) on Sunday, 17th December 2006
Cladking, maybe you're the guy to ask since you've a lot invested in the aquatic side of things vis a vis the architecture of the pyramids. Have you a clue what 'the great flood' might have been in an Egyptian context? The guy that posted this thread says he won't tell me what he's talking about unless I reveal my educational qualifications to him.
-
Message 15
Posted by cladking (U6255252) on Sunday, 17th December 2006
Fools (and crackpots) rush in where angels fear to tread, but I'm fairly confident he is referring to the account of the great flood in the bible.
I've seen dozens of references to this while researching "the aquatic side of things", and they usually provide some of the best resource information.
The most common thing seen is a claim from incient times that these were in the middle of the sea and that they had water lines far up their sides before the casing stones were pulled off. -
Message 16
Posted by an ex-nordmann - it has ceased to exist (U3472955) on Sunday, 17th December 2006
Ah! Then Lehner is indeed a very patient and polite man.
-
Message 17
Posted by Hossam-Aboulfotouh (U2914961) on Monday, 18th December 2006
Hi All,
It is strange that experts of the aquatic side of things of these days, particularly those who claims that they are studied Giza pyramids, do not know about earth' water/flood cycles, or what the master priests of ancient Egypt "Jedars" called the "law of the letter N." If one was able to read and understand our Hieroglyphic texts and was able to understand this particular law and its all set of astro-mathematical formulas, he would not need to search on the subject in somewhere else, any way the following are some few words for the questions, from our golden historic books.
Cladking, the king that you, and Egyptologists, pronounce his name as Amenemhat-I and his followers were from Sinai tribes and its vicinity. They were not as educated as those who built Giza pyramids. Thus, they imitated pyramids without understanding the original purpose of them or the astro-mathematical laws used in their architectonic designs. They designed them only as tombs; and used many of the fallen stones of the buildings and pyramids of the old kingdom that were destructed by the great deluge, and used mud in their buildings. They were the horses riders, and the term "Sino-Sourte, means the best horse rider (horseman) of Sinai tribes. And they are different from Hokasos, who invaded Egypt in other period.
Nordmann, today, the world uses dating systems, e.g., "BC - AC", "BH -AH," etc., related to any of the known events in the history of humankinds, beside the other astronomical dating systems. Similarly, in the ancient world, historians were using "BF-AF," before and after the flood, "BEx-AEx," before and after Exodus, or "BAlx, BAlx," before and after Alexander, and many other astronomical and none astronomical dating systems. Concerning the great flood or the great deluge, it was the last tsunami of the Mediterranean that sunk Nile Delta till Helwan, and that was the main cause of ending the old kingdom of Egypt. The exact time of it, in relation to other chorological dating systems, was well known to the great historians of the golden ages and not the historians of these days, the latter need to learn more on the true history of Egypt. -
Message 18
Posted by an ex-nordmann - it has ceased to exist (U3472955) on Monday, 18th December 2006
Ok Hossam-Aboulfotouh, so when - using modern dating - did this tsunami sink the Nile Delta, with a force that not only destroyed physical landmarks but apparently the society's ability to rebuild, the loss including the application of their accrued knowledge?
What evidence exists geologically to support what you say is discernible from ancient hieroglyphic references?
I understand that a tsunami of that magnitude would have to have been precipitated by a seismic event which itself would have been bound to have affected an area much greater than that of the upper Nile estuary. What evidence exists outside of Egypt, geologically, archaeologically, or culturally to demonstrate that this was so?
Do the hieroglyphs record a traumatic but short-lived catastrophe (typical of tsunami, but not in accordance with the stated effect of the disaster according to you) or do they make reference to lengthy submersion (typical of the biblical flood proposition, for example, and the earlier religious beliefs from which it was derived - but typical of nothing known on earth apart from polar meltdown combined with an extreme tilting of seismic plates which, to our knowledge, has never happened)?
You place great faith (and I emphasise the word faith) in obscure cultural references to events that would surely have left more evidence in their (literal) wake than exist, especially if they had happened as you describe them. I would be interested therefore in what, besides supposition - modern or ancient - informs your view. -
Message 19
Posted by Hossam-Aboulfotouh (U2914961) on Monday, 18th December 2006
Ok, Nordmann, it seems that you would like to change the topic of this thread from "Giza pyramids mapping project" to "great deluge." Any way I am out of Cairo at the moment and I will be back by Wednesday.
-
Message 20
Posted by an ex-nordmann - it has ceased to exist (U3472955) on Monday, 18th December 2006
With some answers, I hope. The issue was one you raised yourself, criticised a 'qualified academic' on the strength of your views, and now refuse to discuss at all, even though it was you who made it central to your argument.
The onus is on you Hossam-Aboulfotouh to clarify that argument. If it is one purporting to draw scientific conclusion from religious texts or otherwise erroneous conjecture by the ancients then we need to know. This is a history message board, not a forum for crackpot scientific theory postulated by the religiously motivated for whom the separation of fact from fiction is a challenge unfortunately beyond them. Other forums exist for that kind of stuff. -
Message 21
Posted by cladking (U6255252) on Monday, 18th December 2006
Dr. Hossam-Aboulfotouh:
Thank you very much for the information on the Amenemhat I pyramid. It is helpful. I am surprised that there is no expert opinion on the function of the large structures attached to them. They are larger than the Great Pyramid so I did expect them to be incorporated in the prevailing theory somewhere.
"It is strange that experts of the aquatic side of things of these days, particularly those who claims that they are studied Giza pyramids, do not know about earth' water/flood cycles, or what the master priests of ancient Egypt "Jedars" called the "law of the letter N." If one was able to read and understand our Hieroglyphic texts and was able to understand this particular law and its all set of astro-mathematical formulas, he would not need to search on the subject in somewhere else, any way the following are some few words for the questions, from our golden historic books."
Please note that my expertise (and name) comes from a field that is one of the older ones on the planet but still came nearly 2000 years after the pyramids were built. I knew no more than the average man about the pyramids as recently as a few months ago. Indeed, I worked backward from the observation that it was impossible to build such large structures with ancient technology without the help of something for use as a counterweight.
It is fascinating how ALL the known facts simply want to fit into this crackpot idea. -
Message 22
Posted by Hossam-Aboulfotouh (U2914961) on Thursday, 21st December 2006
Nordmann, I would like to remind you that the main purpose of this thread was to show that the village that Mark and Hawass claimed it was for the workers of Giza pyramids lacked the architectonic and physical planning evidence, i.e., its architectonic and physical fabric patterns are spontaneous/irregular. Thus, any physical planning academician will conclude that, it neither was an ancient Egyptians' workers village nor was it built by the highly skilled pyramids designers. Since you did not respond to my questions on your opinion regarding this fact, it means you HAVE NOTHING TO SAY on this subject, and if you or any body has any counter argument concerning this particular point, which he thinks it may support the postulation of Mark and Hawass, welcome.
Because, it is obvious that the above point is outside your area of interests or specialization, you decided to focus only on the great deluge, imagining that it is factitious story and that has no real evidence and may be outside my domain of interests and/or my academic studied. You imagined wrongly too, that my information is based only on the few stories that were mentioned in the religious books. Besides, you tried to play the role of the moderator of this board, saying "we need to know" and "this is not the board of that kind of stuff." From your replies, I noticed that, some time, you speak like an academician, however, in many cases you forgot that you are speaking with an academician too, i.e., if you are a real academician you missed to flow the academic rules when discussing scientific subjects on public boards. In this kind of boards we say opinions, supported by published (and I mean published) scientific researches, or if any body asking about the sources or possible references for the research he pursue, any body may help him to find these things. You said "we need to know," then I may ask you for what purpose? Do you believe that the answer would help you to disprove the fallacy of the postulation of the pyramids' workers' village? My answer will not help you in this case at all.
As I said, based on the rules of the academic realms, my reply would be only to help you to observe the difference between what is factitious and what is fact concerning this point. Is there any scientific theory in these days that says when and where exactly the coming tsunami will occur on earth. If this theory is known by the nowadays scientists, then we can easily protect the people and assists of the nations that live and exist in the waterfront regions. And you can know too when and where it happened in the ancient past. Besides, is there any theory in these days that you can use it to identify the geophysical changes in the waterfront regions that was affected by similar events in the ancient past, about 5000 years ago? If you don’t know this kind of knowledge, how to judge on what is fact and what is fiction. This is simply one of the nowadays arrays of the laws of dead hands. Again, you said "we need to know", what are the criteria that you will use to judge on what I might say? In short, these criteria are unknown, neither to you nor to none-architectonicians, and without them you cannot judge on this specific subject. On the contrary, these criteria were known by the ancient but master architectonicians of Egypt and they recorded them in different ways; try to search about them, when you find them you will definitely find me seating before you. -
Message 23
Posted by an ex-nordmann - it has ceased to exist (U3472955) on Thursday, 21st December 2006
So you can't answer the question then.
Or won't.
About this Board
The History message boards are now closed. They remain visible as a matter of record but the opportunity to add new comments or open new threads is no longer available. Thank you all for your valued contributions over many years.
or Β to take part in a discussion.
The message board is currently closed for posting.
The message board is closed for posting.
This messageboard is .
Find out more about this board's
Search this Board
Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔ iD
Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔ navigation
Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔ links
Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔ Β© 2014 The Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔ is not responsible for the content of external sites. Read more.
This page is best viewed in an up-to-date web browser with style sheets (CSS) enabled. While you will be able to view the content of this page in your current browser, you will not be able to get the full visual experience. Please consider upgrading your browser software or enabling style sheets (CSS) if you are able to do so.