Ancient and ArchaeologyΒ permalink
DL's Roman Coin Corner
This discussion has been closed.
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Message 1.Β
Posted by RainbowFfolly (U3345048) on Wednesday, 22nd November 2006
HI DL,
I Thought I'd start a thread devoted to Roman coins and as you're a big fan of them hand it over to you. But to start it off...
I read the following about roman coins in a paper on the Gracchi and thought it might interest you as it shows another aspect of how coins can be a source of historical evidence. I've only chosen a few paragraphs that relate to coinage as I couldn't be bothered typing any more.
"The first third of the century saw an influx of money to the city from indemnities (chiefly from Carthage, Macedonia, and Syria) and bullion from the Spanish Mines that amounted to an estimated 300,000,000 denarii. Much of this metal was quickly coined. It has been estimated that during a forty three year period 250,000,000 silver denarii were struck. There was even an issue of gold coinage in 167 due to the "enormous quantities of gold staters... imported to Rome, partly as spoils of war and partly as payments of tribute".
"Significantly corroborative of heavy government spending in this period is the present author's statistical study of coin hoards of the time, which shows a relatively heavy volume of coinage for the 140's. Since the Roman tresviri monetales ordinarily struck coins only as they were needed to meet expenses of state, coinage volume is a reliable reflection of public expenditure. Issues of denarii (to which the study was confined) during these years were consistently large..."
"In contrast with the prosperous 140's, the evidence - mostly negative - indicates a sharp reduction of public spending in the years after 138BC. Following construction of the temple to Mars in that year, there is no trace of further important public construction for thirteen years until 125BC... This sudden drop in the scale of public spending is corroborated by the statistical coin study mentioned above. Although the issues of coins cannot be dated with sufficient accuracy to permit a year-by-year analysis, the statistics show with high probability that the pattern of consistently large issues of denarii in the 140's was not repeated in the 130's. The total volume of coins struck in these years was decidely lower."
"A reform of the coinage, which probably took place in the late 120's, appears to have been a deliberately inflationary measure asn was perhaps designed to relieve the load of the debtor class. Outstanding numismatists of this period have assigned this reform - revaluation of the denarius from ten to sixteen asses - to the interval between 133 and 122 and have usually connected it with the programs of one of the Gracchi. The present writer has shown conclusively that the early issues of the revlaued denarii were quite small and consequently not connected with any large spending program. Since the as was the money of account or reckoning, the measure was certainly inflationary. Later issues of the revalued denarius were much larger and are perhaps those which reflect the heavy spending of Gaius Gracchus. The implication, then, is that sometime during the 120's, most likely just before the election of Gaius, this revaluation was carried through because of the deflated state of the monetary system, with the intention of giving relief to debtor groups."
SOURCE : The Urban Side of The Gracchan Economic Crisis - H. C. Boren AHR 53 (1963) 61-72
Taken from "The Crisis of the Roman Republic" edited by Robin Seager 1969 (which is a damn fine book!)
Cheers,
RF
p.s. This this mean I'm not barred from the History Bar any more?
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Message 2
Posted by DL (U1683040) on Wednesday, 22nd November 2006
Oh go on then, you can go back in the bar!
I must say that this paper makes somewhat dull reading! It takes a subject which is as you said, very close to my heart but takes all the beauty out of it! H. C. Boren certainly lives up to his name!
Why no mention of the beauty of the Republican coinage? They were producing something as uninteresting as money, yet they produced coins which were undoubtedly superior in metal quality, production standards and design to anything produced until the introduction of milled coinage in Tudor times.
If you look, for example at this Republican denarius
Minted in 137 BC, it is quite a common design, with Apollo in a Quadriga on the reverse, the obverse being the goddess Roma, a theme repeated on many coins.
Then jump forward to William I, and the Normans, over 1000 years later
The portraits are so poor in quality as to be childlike, and the lettering is practically illegible.
The Roman one is a work of art in comparison to this poor effort. Republican Roman coinage has a quality of individuality, each family having distinctive imagery, and it is an excellent way to view the activities of Patrician families and their individual histories, yet this writer is concentrating on the "socio-economic" cause and effect. How about looking at the coins for what they are, objects of beauty and history combined, and an indication of the quality of life, in particular art and creativity, for an ancient society. Can you imagine the look on a barbarian's face when a Roman bought something from him, with a beautifully crafted coin made of precious metal? The coins themselves were Rome, and small pieces of Roman power, art and ingenuity!
Mr Boren can keep his analysis! -
Message 3
Posted by RainbowFfolly (U3345048) on Wednesday, 22nd November 2006
Hi DL,
Nope, it's definitely not the most scintillating read, but it does show their historical value, and in fairness to the writer, these were the few paragraphs in the paper that I picked up on that referred to coins. The Gracchi are a favourite double-act of mine, and I really wouldn't have thought that coinage could shed so much light on what is essentially a period with a dearth of source material.
Just wondering, do you know of any coins related to the Gracchi or Sempronius family?
You're right tho' - the coins are beautiful.
Cheers,
RF
p.s. I can't believe how bad the Norman coins were. I honestl wouldnb't have expected standards to have fell that badly. -
Message 4
Posted by DL (U1683040) on Wednesday, 22nd November 2006
Yes RF,
There you go..
There aren't many Sempronius family produced coins, I have a Sempronia 1 (see the top of the list) but it's quite badly worn. Still nice to have.
Just as a bit of interest, coins are usually valued on their historical significance. The more relevant the depiction, the more valuable the coin.
Good examples are the Brutus denarius, complete with daggers, commemorating the assassination of Julius Caesar, or depicting the portraits of Octavian and Mark Antony. One of my personal favourites is Caesar's one commemorating the defeat of Vercingetorix, which depicts an elephant trampling a serpent, symbolising Rome's dominance over the Gauls. Wven though these coins are not the best examples of the quality Rome produced, they are many times more valuable purely down to their historical significance.
PS The Norman ones were pretty poor, as were their Anglo-saxon predecessors. Rome's coins were outstanding, but they too declined towards the end of the Empire. Byzantine coins were pretty poor too. From my own interests, I'm not too fussed about anything which came after Hadrian really. The silver coins get more and more debased, then replaced completely by bronze, and they just keep getting worse and worse. They are, (in my opinion of course) indicative of the health of Rome as a power. In the beginning, you start out with crude lumps of metal for barter (known as Aes Rude), then coinage starts to appear. It becomes more and more intricate and beautiful as the Republic grows in power, peaking in the 1st Century BC. Then the Imperators take over, and coinage becomes personal propaganda, and remains so. The early Imperial coinage remains high purity metal content, with intricate design, again almost an art form, but then as the Empire becomes more barbarian influenced, the coinage gets debased, and reduced to a shadow of its previous self. When you get to the East/West split it's very poor by comparison to the late Republic/early Empire, and after Constantine it's all so similar, the variance between Emperors its minute (and quite boring). The coinage basically gets more poor quality as the Empire comes apart. -
Message 5
Posted by Buckskins (U4015830) on Sunday, 26th November 2006
DL,
Do you have any interest in MPC ?
Cheers, Matt. -
Message 6
Posted by DL (U1683040) on Monday, 27th November 2006
Hi Matt,
At the risk of sounding extremely ignorant, what is MPC?
Cheers -
Message 7
Posted by Buckskins (U4015830) on Monday, 27th November 2006
Hi DL,
That sounds like a no. MPC, Military Payment Certificates. You may know it as Script. What the troops get issued in lieu of Pounds or Dollars in a hostile or occupied zone.
Cheers, Matt. -
Message 8
Posted by DL (U1683040) on Monday, 27th November 2006
No I'm afraid not Matt,
Only old stuff for me. Anything after about 150 AD doesn't do it for me I'm afraid!
I gather there's a big market for military memorabilia though. I was once offered Β£500 for some old patrol maps from Bosnia (I do tend to hoard stuff like that!) but I can't sell stuff like that, it's like selling your own history. I can't get my head round the poor sods on ebay who sell their medals. There are a lot of them up there. I can't see why anyone would sell them, you can't replace them once they are gone. You'd have to be pretty desperately short of cash to flog off your medals I reckon. They aren't like the US issued ones, each medal is officially inscribed with the name, rank, number and regiment of the recipient, and they don't issue replacements, so why sell them?
I do regret never keeping any stuff like that, I was always a good lad and handed it in! However maps, badges, enemy badges, and er...gunsights (I think I had a fetish for them in the first Gulf-I have the main gun sights pinched off a T55, a BMP-1's machine gun, one taken off a Dragunov and a Russian night sight (sadly the batteries are somewhat hard to come by!)) have always been fair game for me! The "Bribe your way out of trouble" kits were pretty good too, with gold Sovereigns and dollars in them, but as you can guess, they all had to be returned. -
Message 9
Posted by Buckskins (U4015830) on Monday, 27th November 2006
Hi again,
It could be that those medals are being sold by the Grandkids and just don't care about them. It is still sort of sad though. I have a Dragunov. It has the mounted scope the whole bit. Its not a battlefield pick up or anything I ordered it through the mail. It's Chinese and pristine. I doubt I shall ever fire it although a shooter would be kinda neat I guess. I thought it was on SAS that were issued gold sovereigns. I notice that Chris Ryan kept his though. He earned them for sure.
Cheers, Matt. -
Message 10
Posted by DL (U1683040) on Monday, 27th November 2006
There's lots of 1914-18 and WW2 medals for sale, but I'm talking about recent ones. Even current Iraq/Afghanistan and plenty from my time. I can understand grandkids and so on, but these are people who are just out the forces.
Re the sovereigns our OC was issued with them, although I don't know what he did with them! I personally reckon that they were to bribe us into blowing our vehicle up! (Some communications vehicles have "self-destruct" explosives fitted, to blow the radio gear so it doesn't get captured)
You bought a Dragunov through mail order?!! That's one weird country you live in. I know that it's constitutional to bear arms and all that, but that's a sniper rifle, it only has one purpose! Now you've got it though, how can you not resist playing with it?
As for Ryan, he did deserve to keep the gold. His books are poor I'm afraid, but that escape was some achievement. The mission on the other hand was completely FUBAR, a long range recon patrol ON FOOT? Stupidity. -
Message 11
Posted by Buckskins (U4015830) on Monday, 27th November 2006
DL,
What is the difference between a so-called sniper rifle and a scope mounted rifle for deer hunting? I have several weapons that are pure collectors items. I have plenty of what we call shooters. Those of a lesser grade. If you take a pristine rifle and bang a few down range you have just altered the status and value of the piece. To order by mail is regulated. I have to first have it shipped to a registered gun dealer who in turn charges me a small fee for passing it onto me. I can have C&R (Collectable and Relics) designated weapons through the mail direct as I am liscensed. Even that is weird. For instance a Chinese SKS is designated C&R yet a Russian one is not
Matt. -
Message 12
Posted by DL (U1683040) on Monday, 27th November 2006
"What is the difference between a so-called sniper rifle and a scope mounted rifle for deer hunting?"
No idea mate.
I'd say that one is specifically designed for military purposes, one isn't. I'd guess that a hunting rifle is smaller calibre and has less penetrative power. The Dragunov is 7.65mm isn't it? No doubt with a very high muzzle velocity as well? Add in that it's magazine fed for speedy reloading, and that stops being a sporting gun and starts being a toy for soldiers? You really should have joined up mate, they pay you to play with big guns! -
Message 13
Posted by Buckskins (U4015830) on Monday, 27th November 2006
Well your right DL, you have no idea. Many sporting rifles are magazine fed. All my shotguns are magazine fed. Most hunting rifles pack a much harder punch than what the average solder has. Not to mention hunting ammo is soft point,and or hollow point to sit Bambi on his ass. Military ammo is full metal jacket. I don't play with guns. Guns are a serious responsibility. I much prefer to fire what I want, when I want than live the life or subsist on the pittance of a full time professional soldier. Although I respect those that have made that unselfish decision.
Cheers, Matt. -
Message 14
Posted by DL (U1683040) on Wednesday, 29th November 2006
Going off topic,
I had some very nice Bambi for dinner last night. Gorgeous bit of meat.
I'm not to aware on the differences, having only used military spec ammo and weapons, and until they legalise hunting tourists round here, that won't change. Besides, Mrs DL tries to save the life of any living thing which crosses her path, so blatting away at them would be a big no no...
I can see the sporting side, and the pleasure gained from hunting, but the tale of the Passanger Pigeon is a real horror story of hunting gone mad. The last flock of these birds, which numbered 250,000 was wiped out in a single day by hunters who knew full well that it was the last flock. They knowingly wiped out a species for a day's sport. Now that's just plain sick. -
Message 15
Posted by thegoodbadugly (U2942713) on Wednesday, 29th November 2006
not to mention hunting ammo is soft point and or hollow to sit bambi on his ass,
jaayyppppeeeerrrrsssss you history buffs are worse than some paramilatrys i know in ireland,
i much prefer to fire what i want when i want,
try not to do this in the street with passer bys around as they would not understand coin collectors like youse two fireing their guns like it was down town iraq,
all my shotguns are magazine fed,
jaypers run for the hills boys and girls as the history boards have an armed millitia. -
Message 16
Posted by thegoodbadugly (U2942713) on Friday, 1st December 2006
very good post by the way rainbowfolly as i did not know this about coins and i would like to say sometimes a post on this board is worth more than an entire colledge course.
also all you need to post here is a rambo killer gun the bigger the better and your trusty snipers rifle with hollow point bullets,all the better to knock bambi on his ass you know,and your shovel for digging up coins and there you go.
have a nice weekend.
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Message 17
Posted by Buckskins (U4015830) on Friday, 1st December 2006
Would you rather Bambi gets off into the brush and dies days later in agony? Think before you post.
Matt. -
Message 18
Posted by thegoodbadugly (U2942713) on Friday, 1st December 2006
dear matt i do not go around blowing the heads off deer,why do you not hunt people instead as i grew up in dublin with a few head hunters,
do you not like it when bambi fights back,
what happens if someone annoys you in the pub and you have a few drinks on you, do you see bambis everywhere while you go running for your gun,
if you kick a dog you can be charged but you can blow the head off a deer and this is ok,
the type of guns you speak about are banned in ireland,do you know why,i will tell you why,
paramilatry groups used to get any gun they could lay their hands on and use them to hunt memebers of the british army and the government,as a former british soilder you would know this.
how did it feel to be hunted by irish people a bit like bambi i suppose and by the way hunting of deer is illegal in ireland as the british landowners hunted most of them to death and it is not something we irish people like to do,
now i am sorry if this offends anyone as the truth does sometimes but there has been more british soilders shot dead in ireland that there has deer.
now can we go back to rainbowfollys coin post as if you want to get into it with me then i will bring you to another board the talk back ni board and you can argue your kill bambi point there,
oh and think before you start posting with an irish man from north side dublin who likes history as some of those head hunters have not gone away you know. -
Message 19
Posted by RainbowFfolly (U3345048) on Friday, 1st December 2006
Hi Matt,
Would you rather Bambi gets off into the brush and dies days later in agony?Β
Funnily enough, cinematic legend has it that that was in the original last scene of the Disney movie, but sadly on a reel of film that has become lost in their archives. I - like many other cinephiles - hope that one day they will rediscover it and release it on a special-edition double DVD some time in the future...
Cheers,
RF -
Message 20
Posted by priscilla (U1793779) on Friday, 1st December 2006
Yes, Dugly (can't type all) quite right too. Please open a gun room discussion tract for Matt and co. I don't know how to. Would like to read more history on these boards - or is that being boring?
Regards P. -
Message 21
Posted by RainbowFfolly (U3345048) on Friday, 1st December 2006
Hi GBU,
very good post by the way rainbowfolly as i did not know this about coins and i would like to say sometimes a post on this board is worth more than an entire colledge course.Β
Thanks for the compliment, but I can't claim credit for the work, as I just picked odd paragraphs out of a paper! It should also be said that absence of evidence isn't always evidence of absence, although in this case it could well be.
There are some strange sources for history out there; cores from the polar ice-caps can yield information, as can the rings of trees.
This is the Wiki article on tree-ring dating:
Cheers,
RF -
Message 22
Posted by thegoodbadugly (U2942713) on Friday, 1st December 2006
rainbowfolly one day you will get an award and i will be the first to no0minate you.
i never knew that anout bambi. -
Message 23
Posted by RainbowFfolly (U3345048) on Friday, 1st December 2006
rainbowfolly one day you will get an award and i will be the first to no0minate you.
i never knew that anout bambi.Β
shhh... I wasn't exactly being serious about that one...
RF -
Message 24
Posted by Buckskins (U4015830) on Friday, 1st December 2006
Hi Ugly,
Message 18 - posted by thegoodbadugly (U2942713) **,
dear matt i do not go around blowing the heads off deer,why do you not hunt people instead as i grew up in dublin with a few head hunters,
do you not like it when bambi fights back,Β
I don't hunt people because they could be tough eating.
what happens if someone annoys you in the pub and you have a few drinks on you, do you see bambis everywhere while you go running for your gun,Β
Not at all. In the pubs I frequent you drink beer not LSD.
if you kick a dog you can be charged but you can blow the head off a deer and this is ok,Β
If you kick a dog its cruelty to animals. If you blow the head of a deer it's $3000 for an artillery licence.
the type of guns you speak about are banned in ireland,do you know why,i will tell you why,
paramilatry groups used to get any gun they could lay their hands on and use them to hunt memebers of the british army and the government,as a former british soilder you would know this.
how did it feel to be hunted by irish people a bit like bambi i suppose and by the way hunting of deer is illegal in ireland as the british landowners hunted most of them to death and it is not something we irish people like to do,
now i am sorry if this offends anyone as the truth does sometimes but there has been more british soilders shot dead in ireland that there has deer.Β
I have never been in the Army. In fact I have never been in Ireland. I am a Texan of Irish decent that hunts on my property and puts protein on the table.
now can we go back to rainbowfollys coin post as if you want to get into it with me then i will bring you to another board the talk back ni board and you can argue your kill bambi point there,
oh and think before you start posting with an irish man from north side dublin who likes history as some of those head hunters have not gone away you know Β
We can discuss anything you wish. Even although I find your posts more than a little strange.
Cheers from South Texas,
Matt. -
Message 25
Posted by Buckskins (U4015830) on Friday, 1st December 2006
Message 20 - posted by priscilla (U1793779)
Yes, Dugly (can't type all) quite right too. Please open a gun room discussion tract for Matt and co. I don't know how to. Would like to read more history on these boards - or is that being boring?
Regards P.Β
Hi Priscilla,
It's very easy to start a thread. I can talk you through it, it's only a few steps. Or I will go ahead and start one for you. Just tell me what you want to say.
@)--)--)--)----------------
Matthew. -
Message 26
Posted by priscilla (U1793779) on Saturday, 2nd December 2006
Nah! Though doubtless you start anything I rarely begin discussions only pitching in later. In real life too where it's more fun.... As mother said 'give them enough rope.'
Irish descent now? You had English before.
So it's not true that you are going on a penguin shoot during the nesting season, mmm?
Now that would make a stir!
My favourite Royal Marine is currently stationed there - I'll ask him to keep vigilant watch.
Regards P. -
Message 27
Posted by Buckskins (U4015830) on Saturday, 2nd December 2006
Priscilla,
I have no idea why you're being so abrasive. I said "Of Irish descent" Not Irish. I was born in Scotland, as was my Dad. My Mom was born in England. All four of my grandparents are Irish. I'm not into hunting penguins. I'm sure I would find the climate much too disagreeable. Not to mention leaving one with the breath of a Gannet munching Englishman.
Enjoy your day.
Matt. -
Message 28
Posted by priscilla (U1793779) on Saturday, 2nd December 2006
Abrasive? Little me? I was only asking! I just want the facts, man.
There's me thinking you were all smiles.
Regards P.
No more day left to enjoy here but thanks for the thought. -
Message 29
Posted by thegoodbadugly (U2942713) on Sunday, 3rd December 2006
dear buckskin do you have any hari kari bullets for your big gun,do you know what hari kari is as it would make a lot of deer very happy.
-
Message 30
Posted by Buckskins (U4015830) on Sunday, 3rd December 2006
No, I sent all those to the IRA for Christmas.
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Message 31
Posted by thegoodbadugly (U2942713) on Tuesday, 5th December 2006
dear buckskin an iraqi is not a deer but you can shoot as many as you want oh and by the way your pretex for invadeing iraq was 911 and it was a lie,
there was no airplane that crashed into the pentagon
united 93 did not crash into the ground at all,
the twin towers and tower number three did not collaspe it was brought down in a controlled explosion so you better keep your hollow points for george bush as you might need them yourself,
as everything is big in texas does that make you an even bigger ass.... -
Message 32
Posted by thegoodbadugly (U2942713) on Tuesday, 5th December 2006
you have gone very quiet buckskin,have you used the hari kari bullets or what.
-
Message 33
Posted by thegoodbadugly (U2942713) on Thursday, 7th December 2006
that post kinda knocked buckskin on his ass,
hurray for bambi.ha ha -
Message 34
Posted by Buckskins (U4015830) on Thursday, 7th December 2006
I wonder how he found out about the towers. That was supposed to be a secret......awesome...
-
Message 35
Posted by Buckskins (U4015830) on Saturday, 9th December 2006
Hey Ugly,
I bet you never knew Elvis was piloting one of the planes.
B. -
Message 36
Posted by thegoodbadugly (U2942713) on Saturday, 9th December 2006
hi buckskin a little bit of living history for you about the usa.
there is no trace of an airplane hitting the pentagon,the offical line is that it vapourised.
the airplane united 93 also vapourised on impact.
they are the only two planes to do this in aviation history.
the twin towers are the only two buildings to collapse in this manner in the history of construction along with tower number 7 as the towers collapesed in 10 seconds flat.
jeb bush the head of security on the towers is also the brother of george bush.plenty of chances to fix the bombs that brought down the trade centre.
911 is by all accounts a lie.al queada did not attack new york and to this day states so.so why did you invade afganistan and why have you invaded iraq,
heres why america is dying on its feet it has no oil reserves, it needs iraqs oil to survive,or it is dead in the water,
haliburton and caci and kbr and blackwater are running iraq and not the government,you should look at things on the internet and not listen to the rubbish you government feeds to the masses in america,
history will look back on this time in our history as the time of american expansion and mass murder of women and childrenin the middle east for profit and the breaking down of rule of law and implmantation of american world wide rule.
but rest assured as the americans cannot do anything right they are bound to mess it up.
oh and elvis was not piloting any of the planes the one that crashed in to the north tower was piloted by a man who worked on operation northwood type exercises for the pentagon,also both planes that crashed that day were not supposed to be flying that day.
so buckskin a wordfrom the northside dublinerin me.
eat s..t and die mo fo. -
Message 37
Posted by thegoodbadugly (U2942713) on Saturday, 9th December 2006
hello rainbow folly that was a good article on dencrochronogly i understood a bit about it before i read the piece.alsothere is still alot of roman coins being dug up around the country even today,the ones that are in most demand are the ones that show changes in the sky or such like.there is a coin in existence that shows the star of bethlehem i cannot remember if it is jewish or roman.
-
Message 38
Posted by Buckskins (U4015830) on Saturday, 9th December 2006
WOW Ugly, You really are in the know. I hear Elvis bailed out over New Jersey?
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