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Orphics and Xtianity

• Message 1.Μύ

  Posted by generallobus (U1869191) on Friday, 10th November 2006

  The orphic sect in Classical Greece would seem to have been an evolution of Dionysiac ideas amended by followers of Pythagoras. Some of the concepts of the Bacchics included ingesting the diety and the Orphic ideas included concepts such as retribution/reward after death based on how someone had lived their lives in accordance with following certain rules.
  
  This to me seems very similar to xtianity and its ideas of communion/eucharist.
  
  Now some of the speeches attributed to christ, such as the 'consider the lilies' seem to echo other contemporary philosophies such as cynicism.
  
  How much, if at all, do you think Orphic ideas influenced early xtianity?

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• Message 2

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  Posted by Nik (U1777139) on Friday, 10th November 2006

  No strange that Dionysus and Orpheus were related to the region of Thrace, as other "non-Olympian" gods popular in Greece like Kuvelee (Kaveirian mysteries etc.). It is also not strange that all these religions were closely bonded with music much more than other religions (most often frenetic dance music... that is played even today in the region between western Thrace and Black sea).
  
  I am not though certain in what way Orphics would had influenced christianity other that both religions were based in the teachings of a great man that was raised to the status of god. The same appears also in Hinduism and similarities with Krisna are striking. Also, if there are similarities then one should root them more in a synchretic procedure that occured in the 5th-6th and 7th century when most Greeks became christians (it is a myth that Greeks became easily christians - otherwise Justianian in the mid-6th century would not had to spend so much of his time maming more laws on the top of what Theodocius had already done...).
  
  As christianity started as a largely jewish related religion I cannot see easily an early connection with the Orhpics or other related religions. I can see only the relation with other Asian religions (hinduism primarily, perhaps Zoroastrianism as some say but then I do not know much on it). Then do not forget that anyway an important percentage of first christians around the empire were actually related directly to Palestine thus their earlier religions would be probably Jewish or Phoenician gods or such... religions of love and patience did not attract the bulk of Greeks or Romans for whom the notion of 'superiority' and love of taking the most out of earthly life was not to be traded easily for some afterlife mental pleasures. However, as slowly slowly but steadily the religion gained acceptance due to the persevearence of its key members more and more population that belonged directly to the greek/roman culture would enter hence they would bring along with them the taste of their previous religions. Hence, the synchretism. It is noteworthy that in Greece, among common people, the notion of heaven and hell never managed to establish in the minds of people who always thought in terms of Hades (medieval myths, popular songs all talk about Hades and Charon, there is not a single one that talks about paradise or hell).

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  Posted by generallobus (U1869191) on Monday, 13th November 2006

  Hi Nik
  
  The catacomb paintings of Opheus such as Domitilla in Rome from the 3rd century CE(depicts Orpheus/Christ with animals) do suggest a link or influence between Orpheus and Christ.
  
  Many of the mystery religions - Demeter at Eleusis, Cybele, Attis etc. show similarities with xtianity such as initiation/baptism with secrets revealed only to the members.
  
  Orphism however involves believing that the soul is divine "I am a child of the starry heavens but my race is of Earth" from the Deveni papyrus, 3rd century BCE. The myth of the twice born Dionysus shows that the soul is divine but the body is human (Titan). I think Plato alludes to the same saying that the body is the prison of the soul. The aim is to get release from the eathly existance and attain eternal life.
  
  Orphism also dealt with reward/ retribution after death, depending on how one had lived, and followed or not certain practises, such as avoiding contaminents like meat or even wool!
  

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• Message 4

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  Posted by an ex-nordmann - it has ceased to exist (U3472955) on Monday, 13th November 2006

  
  xtianity
  Μύ
  
  Either you're leaving an extra 't' in there or your 'x' is simply replaing Chris (whoever he was).
  
  Mind you, I like the idea of a religion centered on the preachings of a guy called Chris. All very 'corner of the bar on a Saturday evening' kind of vibe about it. Very homely!

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• Message 5

  , in reply to message 3.

  Posted by Nik (U1777139) on Monday, 13th November 2006

  Dear Generallobus. Very nice points. I think the depiction of Christ in a similar manner with Orpheus has to be traced in the constant habit of Greeks and Romans to relate the gods of other cultures to their own ones.
  
  On the other hand, it has to be kept in mind that Orphism, Cybele, Kaveirian gods etc. were religious currents that did not touch much the bulk of the greek population - they were rather restricted to a small percentage (only those who found it cool to participate in such religious groups), not to mention that the "public opinion" would be often negative towards them. Now, on the 3rd century A.D. when an increasing volume of information on christianism became known to paganists and many of the latter started to write texts e.g. explaining why christianism is not good as a religion (strictly on philosophical grounds) then christians had to reply with similar weaponry thus they sought inspiration on what already existed. It was something like the birth of Christ that was chosen to fell on the very date of a popular paganistic celebration: apologetic christian writers like Origenes or the trio Basilius, Gregorius and John Chrysostome ("goldmouth") were experts in philosophy and quite respectful of a large part of the paganist thought (the one that fitted within their framework) hence they replied to accusations of other paganists in that level, i.e. on a philosophical basis. Perhaps earlier the same thing was done not in that level, but in the level of the system of basic believes (soul, life after death etc.).

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• Message 6

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  Posted by generallobus (U1869191) on Tuesday, 14th November 2006

  Thanks Nik.
  
  I agree that the cults you mention inc. Orphism were generally on the periphery of Greek society. I'm sure I read a comment somewhere describing Orphism as 'the anthopology of deviance' and doesn't King Theseus get on Hippolytus's case for being a vegetarian Orphic? That would certainly suggest that it was viewed with suspicion by the majority of Greeks, for whom meat eating was an integral part of sacrifice. It's almost as if Orphism was marginalised for being too intellectual for the commoners (who still favoured Dionysus) and too mundane and restrictive for the intellectuals. So it became a cultural backwater and degenerated into charm sellers and fortune tellers.
  
  Cheers

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• Message 7

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  Posted by generallobus (U1869191) on Tuesday, 14th November 2006

  re message 4
  
  Nordmann,
  
  Yes, an extra 't' is in there. I like the idea of following the teachings of Chris tho'. (I hope it's Lee and not Tarrant).

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