Ancient and Archaeology聽 permalink
Help With Latin Translations
This discussion has been closed.
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Message 1.聽
Posted by RainbowFfolly (U3345048) on Wednesday, 20th September 2006
Hi all,
I know that I'm being really cheeky, but would anyone be prepared to translate some short Roman latin phrases? I'm reading through H. H. Scullard's "From the Gracchi to Nero" which is peppered with odd latin phrases, and ideally, I'd like to add translations of these phrases in the margin to help my understanding.
All the translation sites I've found only appear to do single words, and I'm concerned that the context could be lost if I translated word-by-word instead of the whole phrase. If this isn't the case, then I don't mind doing the work myself, although I would appreciate being pointed to a good translation site that anyone can recommend.
One to start with is:
"quaestio de rebus repetundis"
Cheers,
RF
p.s. I really wanted to take a beginners latin course, but unfortunately I'd left it too late and it was fullly booked up when I applied. -
Message 2
Posted by Richie (U1238064) on Wednesday, 20th September 2006
Fly
Are you sure of the spelling of the last two words???
I tried at
and it kept telling that Rebus Repetundis were not recognisable although the phrase has something to do with seeking (quaestio) although again I speak no latin myself but am always fascinated by the latin phrases
Rich -
Message 3
Posted by RainbowFfolly (U3345048) on Wednesday, 20th September 2006
Hi Richie,
Yup, I've just rechecked and it's exactly the same as in the book. The part of the sentence directly preceeding the phrase is "...proposed a measure to set up in Rome a permanent court to try cases of extortion". The trouble is, from the sentence there are four possibilities that I can guess the phrase refers to:
1) The proposed measure.
2) The permanent court.
3) Cases of extortion.
4) Any combination of the above!
Like you I'm fascinated with latin phrases. I'll have to wait a year to take the beginners course, but I do have my Daily Telegraph "Learn Latin" and "Dummies Guide to Latin" books at home that maybe I should start to work through!
Cheers,
RF -
Message 4
Posted by ElistanOnVacation (U3933150) on Wednesday, 20th September 2006
quaestio de rebus repetundis
As best as I can figure it means 'question the repeat recividist'. Does that make sense in the context? -
Message 5
Posted by RainbowFfolly (U3345048) on Wednesday, 20th September 2006
Hi Elistan,
It kind of does, although "repeat recidivist" sounds a touch tautological! "Rebus" seems to be the most tricky word, as most online translation tools give an alternative word which translates as "recidivist".
I've had a look at an online latin dictionary called "Words by William Whitaker", and it seems pretty good (they also have a free downloadable dictionary which I've just installed). It gave the following definitions for each word:
QUAESTIO : questioning, inquiry; investigation
DE : down/away from, from, off; about, of, concerning; according to; with regard to;
REBUS : thing; event, business; fact; cause; property
REPETUNDIS : return to; get back; demand back/again; repeat; recall; claim; Recovery (pl.) of extorted money
So, choosing from each definition, I can twist it into "Investigation Concerning Business (of) Recovery of Extorted Money" which fits rather well with the sentence the phrase is within. It looks a nifty little dictionary!
Cheers,
RF
p.s. Is "quaestio" from the same root as "quaestor"? -
Message 6
Posted by RainbowFfolly (U3345048) on Wednesday, 20th September 2006
Almost forgot - the link for the dictionary I mentioned is:
Cheers,
RF -
Message 7
Posted by lolbeeble (U1662865) on Wednesday, 20th September 2006
My Latin isn't too hot but I know my Republican constitutional organisation. This would be in the context of Gauis Gracchus' transferral of jury rights from the Senate to Equestrians for cases of extortion relating to tax farming contracts. As these were also awarded to equestrians as a result of his brother's policy towards the Kingdom of Pergamon from 133BC it did result in a rather glaring conflict of interests and was something Quintus Mucius Scaevola seemed powerless to address while governor of Asia.
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Message 8
Posted by TonyG (U1830405) on Wednesday, 20th September 2006
I only studied Latin briefly and I will defer to anyone with a greater knowledge, but here goes.
I initially thought "quaestio" was a verb but it is actually a noun meaning "an inquiry".
de is definitely "concerning, about, regarding" I thnk it takes the ablative case as in "de bello gallica" by a certain J Caesar.
rebus is plural dative or ablative. Ablative would make sense after "de". "Re" is a "thing, matter", so rebus is "things, matters" in the ablative plural.
I am struggling with repetundis. According to an online dictionary I found "repeto" means "I go back for" or "I ask for something back" but "res repetere" as a phrase means "to demand satisfaction". I am not sure of the conjugation of repeto but I think repetundis is actually an adjective from the verb, also in the ablative plural giving "rebus repetundis" a meaning literally "things I ask for back" or if my dictionary is correct, has a meaning of "demands for satisfaction"
So that would make it "An enquiry concerning demands for satisfaction".
However, one thing I did learn is that the obvious translation is rarely correct when it comes to Latin, particularly in short phrases, and I may be well off the mark here.
Quaestors were officials with responsibility for financial affairs. I'm not sure whether that has the same root as quaestio or not. On the face of it, it does, although I am unsure of the connection. -
Message 9
Posted by colonelblimp (U1705702) on Wednesday, 20th September 2006
I think "repetundis" is the ablative plural form of the gerundive* "repetundum", which would make the phrase something like "an enquiry concerning those matters for which satisfaction must be demanded". But I agree with your point that the obvious translation may not be correct!
*As in Cato's well-known catchphrase "delenda est Carthago" - "Carthage must be destroyed". -
Message 10
Posted by an ex-nordmann - it has ceased to exist (U3472955) on Wednesday, 20th September 2006
Welcome to the wonderful world of Latin legalese! The direct translation "questioner of things repeatedly" sounds like a Roman version of Jeremy Paxman and in truth wouldn't mean much to a Roman either. In legal terms however it came from two established phraseologies - "quaestio", that had already an accepted meaning as 'court', and "de repetundis", which in association with "pecuniis" (moneys repeatedly) had come to mean extortion, an indictable offence.
Piso's Lex Calpurnia enacted in 149BC set up a senatorial commission that could be invoked to investigate corruption on the part of a provincial governor. It's main purpose was to ensure that the governor under investigation was coughing up all that was Rome's due, but a much-used feature of the legislation was the right of citizens (though in practise senators and buddies of theirs in the same social echelon) to claim back that which had been inappropriately taken by the governor accused. Since this extended beyond the simple concept of extortion the established phrase "quaestio de pecuniis repetundis" (occasional court convened to investigate and try extortion cases) was broadened to include 'all things' that pertained to the governor's illegal acquisition of wealth, and therefore was termed "quaestio de rebus repetundis".
For what it's worth it was a commission that had practically no teeth until Gaius Gracchus made the bold move of replacing its senatorial members with equites. Up until then a governor caught red-handed could more than likely buy his way out of difficulty since his crime was being prosecuted by a small self-interested group who were easily accessible and of the same social strata as the accused. Gracchus' change turned it into a court run by businessmen and therefore switched the emphasis from simply naming and shaming naughty provincial governors to actively pursuing them for compensation after a conviction. By then in any case several versions of 'leges de repetundis' had been passed that had widened the net to include magistrates within Italy and Rome, and the punishments had grown considerably with each piece of legislation, so Gracchus' alteration to the old Lex Cornelia was not as revolutionary as he himself made out and simply fitted the trend of a republic tightening the strings on its increasingly fattening purse. -
Message 11
Posted by PaulRyckier (U1753522) on Wednesday, 20th September 2006
Colonel,
I think with you that it is the ablative plural of the gerundivum "repetundum".
I found in an old Latin-Dutch dictionary (1954) of mine: "res repetere": "schadevergoeding eisen" (claim compensation).
Also: "pecuniae repetundae": "de terug te vorderen gelden"(I learned the gerundivum as: "de moeten teruggevorderd wordende gelden") (the money being to have reclaimed) (passive of the gerundium)
And so I agree to your translation.
Warm regards,
Paul. -
Message 12
Posted by PaulRyckier (U1753522) on Wednesday, 20th September 2006
Nordmann,
after my short reply to the Colonel, I bow of course my head with esteem for this nearly all-saying and explaining message.
With warm regards mixed with esteem,
Paul. -
Message 13
Posted by RainbowFfolly (U3345048) on Thursday, 21st September 2006
...I know my Republican constitutional organisation.聽
Hi lolbeeble,
You certainly do - absolutely spot on!
RF -
Message 14
Posted by colonelblimp (U1705702) on Thursday, 21st September 2006
Paul
Thanks, and I second your vote of appreciation for Nordmann's very interesting reply. -
Message 15
Posted by RainbowFfolly (U3345048) on Thursday, 21st September 2006
Hi Nordmann,
Another of your highly informative and much appreciated posts! I especially liked the explanation of how the "quaestio de pecuniis repetundis" was broadened to become "quaestio de rebus repetundis". Whenever I next see the word "quaestio" used in a similar context I'll instantly think of the word "court".
Hi TonyG / ColonelBlimp / PaulRyckier,
I get really scared of learning latin whenever I hear terms like ablative, dative and gerundive. Are they quite simple - or at least straightforward - concepts to grasp?
Thanks all,
RF -
Message 16
Posted by an ex-nordmann - it has ceased to exist (U3472955) on Thursday, 21st September 2006
I loathed Latin in school but managed to get by. It was only afterwards, through an interest in etymology, that I realised how bloody great it was to have studied it and took it up again on my own.
Ablative and dative etc are really just terms that apply to almost all languages grammar-wise, whether we know it or not when we speak. They are useful to get a handle on the rules governing the little alterations we make to words to show their place in the logic of a sentence. The problem with Latin is that, unlike English, they apply every time, and when the effect is multiplied out through the declensions it can all seem quite daunting - especially when laid out in tabular format as grammar books like to do.
I had terrible problems remembering what a gerund even was in school, I recall, until I hit upon the notion that it was a strange mythical monster, crucially with no name. That aided the knowledge that it is simply a noun derived from a verb (but with no nominative case) through my thick skull, to such an extent that I still remember both the rule and the monster! -
Message 17
Posted by RainbowFfolly (U3345048) on Thursday, 21st September 2006
Hi Nordmann,
I love how latin words can be almost identical to italian and french (I always remember "semper" and "sempre"). Etymology can keep me entertained for hours, and I know how much latin would add to it too.
Isn't learning latin supposed to be great way to actually learn about language itself? If it is, then I'm a little less apprehensive about all the grammatical terms, as I might need them again sometime.
Cheers,
RF
p.s. So a gerund is a bit like the character Clint Eastwood played in "A Fistful of dollars", "For a Few Dollars More" and "The Good, the Bad and the Ugly" but big, green and hairy? That's good, because if I ever forget, all I'll need to do is to whistle a bit of Morricone and it'll all come flooding back to me... -
Message 18
Posted by an ex-nordmann - it has ceased to exist (U3472955) on Thursday, 21st September 2006
What made matters worse was that our English teacher had attempted to explain Gerund by citing Shakespeare's play "The Taming of the Shrew" where 'taming' is a noun derived from a verb. (Most English gerunds are just -ing at the end). The problem was that it transformed my Latin monster (L. 'monstrum' omen, from 'monere' to warn) into a giant shrew that ran around inside my head screaming Ing! Ing! Ing! like something from The Holy Grail on acid.
All very perturbing (L. 'per' through, 'turbare' to disturb, from 'turba' turmoil) to a hormone saturated strap of an eejit with a photo of Marianne Faithful secreted behind the wallpaper segment acting as a homemade dustjacket for his "Latin For Today Book III" -
Message 19
Posted by RainbowFfolly (U3345048) on Thursday, 21st September 2006
I'm now getting concerned that learning Latin could end up giving me life-long psychological scars! Trouble is there's so much beauty in language it's hard to walk away from it. Any more good English words you'd like to show the Latin roots of?
Oh, and I think I understand gerunds now you've explained how they apply to English. "Ing" makes it sound nice and easy, but now I'm desperately trying to get the image of an 8ft shrew shrieking "Ing" out of my head.
Cheers,
RF
p.s. Marianne Faithfull
. Loved in her "Girl on a Motorcycle", but thought the Americans were a bit sensationalist in renaming the film "Naked Under Leather"... -
Message 20
Posted by Richie (U1238064) on Thursday, 21st September 2006
The Shrew who likes to say "Ing" wants a shrubery
Briliant!!!!
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Message 21
Posted by Mick_mac (U2874010) on Thursday, 21st September 2006
Nordmann,
'Latin for Today Book III' brings me right back to about 1970. Can't believe you used the same schoolbook!
It contained excerpts from Caesar's 'De Bello Gallico'. Remember 'Gallia est divisa in partes tres...'?
We had a ditty we used to recite:
Latin is a language as dead as dead can be.
It killed the ancient Romans and now it's killing me!' -
Message 22
Posted by an ex-nordmann - it has ceased to exist (U3472955) on Thursday, 21st September 2006
We were taught Latin by a De La Salle brother by the name of Canice. Of course as soon as we hit the Latin for 'dog' in Longman's grammar (like every class the poor eejit had taught in his fifty years drilling irregular paradigms into juvenile nuts) it was the cue for thirty cases of hopelessly suppressed sniggers, one christian brother who's anger turned his face as black as his dalek vestments, an explosion of leather strapped sadism directed at his thwarters, and quadruple (L. "quadri" four, and "plus" fold) ekker!
My own abiding memory from Latin For Today Books I, II and III however was a chapter where "Marcus goes to the Circus Maximus". Not a disembowelled christian, reenactment of the rape of the Sabine women or even a mock Carthaginian galley manned by gorillas and eunuchs from the African province in sight! I believe Marcus enjoyed the 'joculatorii' (jugglers or stand-up comics, take your pick) best. Strange boy ... -
Message 23
Posted by TonyG (U1830405) on Thursday, 21st September 2006
Rainbowfolly,
I鈥檇 recommend studying Latin if you are interested in the roots of many English words. Quite a few spring to mind.
Seruus 鈥 slave, from which we get 鈥渟ervant鈥 and 鈥渟ervile鈥
Uir 鈥 man from which we get 鈥渧irile鈥
Sequor 鈥 I follow. Gives us 鈥渟equence鈥. The Latin expression non sequitur used in English means literally, 鈥渋t does not follow鈥
One of my favourites, though is a pun. In English, we call a bicycle for two people a tandem. Tandem in Latin means, 鈥渁t length鈥.
As to whether it helps with grammar, I am not so sure. Certainly it helps understand other languages, such as German, which still used different noun endings for different cases. For example, in English it is possible to have a sentence in which the meaning can be interpreted in a couple of ways. In the sentence, "The woman saw a soldier walking down the street" it is not entirely clear who is walking down the street. In Latin, it would be quite clear as the two nouns would have different endings. Word order is not important in Latin because of this. In English, "The dog bit the man" is quite different to "the man bit the dog" simply by changing the order of the words. In Latin, the order makes no difference. Either noun can come first because the ending of the noun will denote who is doing the biting and who is being bitten.
Compared to Classical Greek, Latin is not actually too bad. There are, I think , only about five different types of nouns and the endings can be mastered with a bit of study (although I confess I would struggle to remember them all now).
Greek does not have an ablative case, but does have over a dozen different types of nouns, each with subtly different endings depending on the case and, of course whether the noun is singular or plural.
I digress. Problems with modern English grammar come from an insistence on forcing Latin grammar onto English sentences. The 鈥渞ule鈥 about never splitting infinitives, as in 鈥渢o boldly go鈥 is only a rule because it is not possible to split an infinitive in Latin. There is nothing fundamentally wrong with it in English.
The problem for most English speakers in learning Latin is that English has largely dropped the habit of changing nouns depending on the case. Where English does retain them is in personal pronouns. You know when talking whether to use I, me, or my because of the structure of the sentence you are saying. What you are doing is changing the [pro]noun "I" depending on which case it is in.
I did a short course a while ago with the Open University which was well worthwhile and quite enjoyable. If nothing else, it showed me where Frankie Howerd got his scripts from in 鈥漊p Pompeii鈥. -
Message 24
Posted by PaulRyckier (U1753522) on Thursday, 21st September 2006
Nordmann, Colonel,
it's 40 years ago now that I studied Latin (six years) but nearly all forgotten. I sold my grammar and syntaxis books and have only left a Dutch-Latin and a Latin-Dutch dictionary.
That said I have a vague rememberance that the Gerundium as the Gerundivum are also used in the Nominative.
For instance: pecuniae repetundae:nominative female plural gerundivum? the money being to have reclaimed?
repetere pecuniam: nominative gerundium (= infinitive)+ accusative of pecunia? Reclaiming money (is (for instance) the duty of every honest man)?
Nordmann,Colonel? I bow for your knowledge as you both have perhaps still a grammar?
Warm regards to both,
Paul. -
Message 25
Posted by PaulRyckier (U1753522) on Thursday, 21st September 2006
Tony,
is it not from the French: "virile" and so on. Just teasing my English friends here on the boards, especially Dark Kitten. Oops, have to say British friends, including the Scots, Welsh and Irish even if they reside in the far away Norway.
Warm regards to all my friends and enemies on the boards,
Paul. -
Message 26
Posted by TonyG (U1830405) on Sunday, 24th September 2006
Paul,
I am sure you have no enemies n this Board.
It is nice to see a thread which does not involve people hurling insults at each other, isn't it?
As for the derivation of words, you are quite correct that many words came to English from French thanks to the Normans, but a lot of these words were originally of Latin derivation, arriving in English via French as it were. -
Message 27
Posted by PaulRyckier (U1753522) on Sunday, 24th September 2006
Tony,
thank you very much for your kind reply. Of course you are right, it all derives from Latin and some words from Greek, eventually via Latin. But I said you it was a little bit to tease...I know it isn't that very Christian...but even as a selfconsidered moderate...it sparks some pleasure...now ashamed of myself...I close the message.
Warm regards,
Paul.
PS: The same in Dutch and German, but not that many as in French and less than in English. About half of the English words are from Latin, French, Greek origin. The little devil on my shoulder is looking together with me to the board and laughing...my guardian angel is crossing the arms and looking enraged... -
Message 28
Posted by Xenos5 (U1814603) on Wednesday, 27th September 2006
Hello Rainbowfolly and all
I can't remember much Latin now either. But the ways I still find it invaluable are in helping me work out the meaning of words i've never seen sometimes; and in spelling; and in learning Romance languages. I now know a lot more Portugues than Latin, but I got off to a flying start learning it because of my Latin lessons.
Regards,
Xenos -
Message 29
Posted by PaulRyckier (U1753522) on Wednesday, 27th September 2006
Xenos,
you are quite right about Latin.
If you can read a text (about hearing you have always the difficulty of the pronounciation and the dialects (smile) as the Dutch, English German and Italian...)... Than knowing Latin you can nearly understand Spanish, Portuguese (oh, I forgot Portuguese, what a pronounciation (smile) if you compare it to Spanish...) Italian and French. And if you understand some essentials from Dutch and German it is easely to understand the written language becaus e they have also that many Latin words. Said that it is even more easier to understand written English with some notions from Dutch and German, while it is even much closier to Latin than Dutch and German.
Warm regards,
Paul.
PS: Xenos, I didn't want to blame Portuguese... Just a bit teasing, you know me... -
Message 30
Posted by classicsnet (U1418743) on Saturday, 30th September 2006
I think others have solved your 'quaestio' problem, but with regard to learning Latin why not have a look at COLP (Cambridge Online Latin Project) at www.cambridgescp.com?
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Message 31
Posted by Bogbrain (U5117266) on Tuesday, 3rd October 2006
Te audire no possum. Musa sapientum fixa est in aure. -
Message 32
Posted by Bogbrain (U5117266) on Tuesday, 3rd October 2006
Sorry, I don't think mmessage 31 was quite what you were looking for.
I can't hear you. I have a banana in my ear : - / -
Message 33
Posted by RainbowFfolly (U3345048) on Wednesday, 18th October 2006
Damn, I feel even more stupid than usual. Borrowed a book from the library called "Sources for Roman History 133-70BC" by Greenidge and Clay. As it was referenced in a number of other books, I thought it would be great for my first essay that I have to write. The preface made sense, the index looked excellent, and the heading on the first page read "The agrarian legislation of Ti. Sempronius Gracchus. Social and economic conditions which dictated the legislation.". Exciting stuff I thought, until I got home and realised that they were the only areas written in English. The body of the text and the rest - i.e. 99% of the blasted book - is all in Latin or Greek...
I'm beginning to wish that I'd chosen that "Painting by Numbers for the Colour Blind" course instead.
RF -
Message 34
Posted by RainbowFfolly (U3345048) on Wednesday, 18th October 2006
Hi all,
Thanks again for your advice and reminisces.
I need a little more help with a translation - this time from "Brutus" by Cicero. I have the Loeb translation by G.L. Hendrikson and H.M. Hubbell in front of me, and the Latin text is:
"Sed corum alter propter turbulentissimum tribunatum,..."聽
The Loeb translates this into English as:
"The one, because of his revolutionary tribuneship..."聽
The word I'm concerned with is "turbulentissimum" which I'm assuming has been translated as "revolutionary". Is this an accurate and fair translation of the word? A little translation tool has come up with "violently disturbed, stormy, turbulent; unruly, riotous; w/violent unrest;".
Cheers,
RF -
Message 35
Posted by an ex-nordmann - it has ceased to exist (U3472955) on Wednesday, 18th October 2006
Causing turbulence, rather than itself being turbulent. Therefore 'revolutionary' is indeed a better English translation than simply 'turbulent'. He must have been considered a bit of a political mover and shaker by Cicero.
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Message 36
Posted by an ex-nordmann - it has ceased to exist (U3472955) on Wednesday, 18th October 2006
the 'issimum' bit is just Cicero exaggerating (so unlike the man to overdo the superlative!).
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Message 37
Posted by RainbowFfolly (U3345048) on Wednesday, 18th October 2006
Hi Nordmann,
Guess who it's about? Tiberius Gracchus, and I've got that age-old essay question "Were The Gracchi Real Revolutionaries?". As it's my first essay, I thought it would look good if I dug around for obscure (although not too obscure in this case) mentions in ancient texts. I think it's kind of a nice way to open the essay by quoting Cicero in its introduction - the rest of it will probably go rapidly downhill from that point onwards!
Oh and just to state the absolutely obvious - thanks for the response.
Cheers,
RF -
Message 38
Posted by an ex-nordmann - it has ceased to exist (U3472955) on Thursday, 19th October 2006
I was wondering about that. From the way you set the question it sounded like a quotation from Cicero concerning Marcus Junius Brutus during the time of his praetorship. It didn't square with my own recollection that Marcus Tullius reckoned Marcus Junius was basically a sound guy with the courage of a lion, but unfortunately had the mental capacities of a five year old! (And that in a letter to him too!)
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Message 39
Posted by DavidHume (U1635897) on Thursday, 19th October 2006
A little translation tool has come up with "violently disturbed, stormy, turbulent; unruly, riotous; w/violent unrest;". 聽
If you are in doubt about the exact meaning of the word in context, consult the OLD (Oxford Latin Dictionary. It will give you several different instances of the word in use - perhaps even the sentence which you are looking at (though the word in question is a superlative form and will be available only as a normal adjective).
Oh, and a good rule of thumb: never trust a Loeb translation. They are hopelessly prosaic, and often censor the real meaning of a passage (the period 1860 to 1950 had an abunbance of easily shocked christian scholars who were extraordinarily eager to conceal the real translations from enquiring young minds).
The trick with mastering Latin is to try, try, and try again, until you have kicked away the cribs and can plod your way through a sentence by instinct - an instinct heavily reliant upon your own common sense (ask yourself: would this be an ablative or a dative? What precedents have I encountered? Always be alert to the possibilities of the potential contitional subjunctive - Roman rhetorical training instills them with a propensity for that sort of thing - even when not writing formal rhetoric! And so on)
They do not call Latin the Pons Assinorum for nothing.
If you put in the effort, the rewards are immeasurable - despite what barbarians like the oafish Charles Clarke say.
Enjoy. -
Message 40
Posted by an ex-nordmann - it has ceased to exist (U3472955) on Friday, 20th October 2006
Educational theory seems to be Mr Clarke's very own Pons Asinorum, though since his recent decision to concentrate on law instead of politics might indicate, said Mr Clarke might actually feel in any case more comfortable on the side of the bridge where the asses congregate (as Mr Bumble might have remarked).
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Message 41
Posted by RainbowFfolly (U3345048) on Wednesday, 25th October 2006
Hi David,
Thanks for all the advice and also the tips about the early Loeb translations. I don't suppose you know of any amusing examples of Loeb censorship? I'd love to see how they coped with Catullus at his most bitter!
Latin is slowly starting to make sense, but my vocabulary is seriously limited. It'll take time, but knowing that one day I'll be able to read the writer and not the translator is one hell of a potential reward.
Cheers,
RF -
Message 42
Posted by DavidHume (U1635897) on Wednesday, 25th October 2006
I don't suppose you know of any amusing examples of Loeb censorship? 聽
The 'translation' of Juvenal's description of the lack of sexual prowess one has in old age.
As this is a family board I will not go into the specifics of what is said, but the Loeb rather charmingly talks about the abstract nature of love 'arising' then adds '...' as a 'fill-in-the-blanks-for-yourself' attempt to excuse away the next 10 lines of the text.
It is the literary equivalent of turing the lights off when the man and woman get into bed.
Absurd and amusing at the same time.
I will try to find the specific passage when I have more time.
Have to go. -
Message 43
Posted by RainbowFfolly (U3345048) on Wednesday, 25th October 2006
It really does seem absurd considering that that the latin was on the facing page! ummm... I'm assuming that the latin text wasn't censored in any way - that would be horrifying...
I've never read Juvenal - are his satires fun?
Cheers,
RF -
Message 44
Posted by DavidHume (U1635897) on Wednesday, 25th October 2006
It really does seem absurd considering that that the latin was on the facing page! 聽
I think that the average classicist of 60 to 120 years ago had an aversion to the earthy language of the uneducated. Juvenal uses very earthy language which, if it were to be faithfully recreated, would have to employ some pretty graphic terminology of the non-scientific variety.
The trap that these translators fell into was to two-fold: either render the idea in that whimsy, airy prose, which goes round the houses in order to avoid saying what is there ('a great rising cenotaph invaded the central amazonian plain' for something simple like a description of male sodomy of a female), or ignore it and give a brief summary of what the 'feeling' of the passage is and then add '...'
They probably thought that once you could read the Latin you would have the maturity to deal with the frightful things it says. -
Message 45
Posted by DavidHume (U1635897) on Wednesday, 25th October 2006
I've never read Juvenal - are his satires fun? 聽
I like him. I suppose he would appeal to the modern mind. He likes to complain about things - but not to the point where the humour is lost (although his anti-Jewish sentiments can be a bit jarring for a modern - but to be fair to him he is much more hostile to the Greeks, who, according to him, indulge in every vice ever created by the Gods) -
Message 46
Posted by RainbowFfolly (U3345048) on Thursday, 26th October 2006
'a great rising cenotaph invaded the central amazonian plain'聽
That's beautiful! It sounds even better If you imagine it being read by Peter Cook in his best E.L. Wisty voice. I think I'll avoid the Loeb copy and get the recent Penguin Classics translation.
They probably thought that once you could read the Latin you would have the maturity to deal with the frightful things it says.聽
hmmm... But aren't these the first words that schoolchildren look up when they start a new language? I know they were for me...
...he is much more hostile to the Greeks, who, according to him, indulge in every vice ever created by the Gods)聽
And the Greeks claim the same thing about the Turks!
Cheers and thanks again,
RF
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