Ancient and ArchaeologyΜύ permalink
Israelites in Egyptian history
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Message 1.Μύ
Posted by Miranda (U2203130) on Thursday, 17th August 2006
Is there anything in recorded Egyptian history which corroborates the account of the ten plagues sent by God on to the Egyptians as related in Exodus?
Is there also anything which corroborates the account of the 7 years of plenty and 7 years of famine during Joseph's tenure as Pharoah's right-hand-man? We are told that the Egyptians put aside a fifth of their food during the years of plenty as preparation for the coming years of famine, and that during the time of famine, peoples from other lands came to Egypt to buy food (including of course Joseph's brothers). Are there any written records in Egyptian or other nearby cultures which record such a thing? -
Message 2
Posted by jacobitematt (U3577576) on Thursday, 17th August 2006
Hello Miranda,
I'd recomend you take a look at David Rohl's "A Test of Time". -
Message 3
Posted by an ex-nordmann - it has ceased to exist (U3472955) on Thursday, 17th August 2006
Plague was a constant throughout that historical period and was a particular threat to a highly organised, populous and compact society such as Egypt, so it does indeed appear in the written record that the society left behind. Some oblique references can even be made to particularly devastating ones through the interpretation of specific references in the hieroglyphic record, but this does not in any sense to 'recorded history' as we understand the term, or as the bible claims to relate in its description of the 'ten plagues'.
Egyptian historians have failed to agree on the corroborative value of any of these references in providing an historical background and/or justification for the biblical events (ten plagues in quick succession). Specialists in other fields (such as the molecular biologist Siro Trevisanato) have however made concerted efforts to at least demonstrate the feasibility of the events described in the biblical narrative, if not their historical accuracy.
Likewise there is huge dispute over which period in the dynastic record corresponds with Joseph's alleged presence in the royal court. If such a correspondence will ever be established I do not think however that it will be through dating a fourteen year period divided neatly between famine and over-production. If anything, the records that do exist from which agricultural production can be estimated show that Egypt had a remarkably stable and well-organised food production cycle. On the occasions when the Nile let them down they seemed to have always bounced back rather quickly. Seven years of famine, in such a system, could well have spelt the end of their civilization, and there is absolutely no record of such a catastrophe as yet discovered. -
Message 4
Posted by Eliezer, the Irish pennywhistler (U4824016) on Thursday, 17th August 2006
The Ipuwer Papyrus.
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Message 5
Posted by RainbowFfolly (U3345048) on Thursday, 17th August 2006
Quoted from "Ipuwer papyrus" at Wikipedia. It's important to note that it is religious organisations that cite the papyrus as evidence for the Exodus, and that generally Egyptologists reject it.
"The Dialogue of Ipuwer and the Lord of All is an ancient Egyptian poem preserved in a single papyrus, Leiden Papyrus I 344, which is housed in the National Archeological Museum in Leiden.
The sole surviving manuscript dates to the later 13th century BCE. The dating of the original composition of the poem is disputed, but several scholars have suggested a date between the late 12th dynasty and the Second Intermediate Period (ca. 1850 BCE - 1600 BCE). The theme of this work has previously been taken either as a lament inspired by the supposed chaos of the Second Intermediate Period, or as historical fiction depicting the fall of the Old Kingdom several centuries earlier, or possibly a combination of these.
Ipuwer describes Egypt as afflicted by natural disasters and in a state of social collapse. The poor have become rich, and the rich poor, and warfare, famine and death are everywhere. One symptom of this collapse is the lament that servants are leaving their servitude and acting rebelliously. Because of this, and such statements as "the River is blood", some have interpreted the document as an Egyptian account of the Plagues of Egypt and the Exodus in the Old Testament of the Bible, and it is often cited as proof for the Biblical account by various religious organisations. David Rohl recently proposed a revised chronology, dating the Exodus to the Second Intermediate Period, in which case Ipuwer might refer to that event, but Rohl's chronology has been convincingly rejected by major Egyptological authorities. However, the association of Ipuwer with the Exodus is generally rejected by Egyptologists, who if they interpret the Exodus as a historical event at all generally place it later, in the reign of Ramses II. Some have alternatively interpreted the poem's references to disturbances in nature as relating to the Thera eruption, on the assumption that this event occurred in the 17th century BC.
Both the Exodus and Thera schools of interpretation are, however, open to the same fundamental criticism: they read the text hyper-literally, and take no account of the fact that Ipuwer is a work of poetry, and is to a greater or lesser degree fictional. Recently the poem has been interpreted instead as an essentially ahistorical, timeless consideration of the theme of 'order vs. chaos'. On this reading, the references in Ipuwer to rivers of blood, and to slaves revolting, are schematic 'world turned upside down' laments rather than specific historical reports: for example, the worst thing a river of water can turn into is blood, and there are parallels for this motif in other cultures (e.g. in Virgil's Aeneid).
A generally overlooked feature of the poem is the fact that, in addition to a lengthy series of laments, the later passages contain a dialogue between two figures identified only as "Ipuwer" and the "Majesty of the Lord of All" (this term can be used either of the sun-god, or the king). These sections of the poem are badly damaged, but apparently debate the causes of evil and chaos in the world, and the balance between human and divine responsibility for them. This dialogue forms one of the oldest examinations in world literature of the question of theodicy."
RF -
Message 6
Posted by Eliezer, the Irish pennywhistler (U4824016) on Thursday, 17th August 2006
Then again, we Jews don't read Exodus text hyper-literally, and DO take account of the fact that Exodus is a work of poetry, and is to a greater or lesser degree fictional.
Unfortunately, Miranda is a Christian and is stuck with trying to interpret a mediocre English translation of an ancient Hebrew text. -
Message 7
Posted by jonsparta (U3871420) on Thursday, 17th August 2006
jacobitematt and Miranda,
you might want to take a look at David Rohl's From Eden To Exlie, its a account of how and why the anceint Israelis got to the Holy Land. he makes very good points of how the bible can fit into know historical facts, such as the placing the bible in the late bronze age and not as most still do putting it into the Iron age. where of course there is no real mention of the Hebrews! -
Message 8
Posted by RainbowFfolly (U3345048) on Thursday, 17th August 2006
Hi Jon,
But to be fair, she should also read at least one other book on the subject, as one book on such a controversial subject can only lead to adopting the views of the author without really questioning them. For example "Truth and Fiction in the Bible" by Robin Lane Fox. I've got this on order so I'll let you know what it's like when I've read it.
Cheers,
RF -
Message 9
Posted by jonsparta (U3871420) on Thursday, 17th August 2006
Very true RF!
cool, i have his The Classical World. its a great book, girlfriend got it for me in hard back, hard to carry around with you! lol. do keep me up today on it, i was thinking of gettin his other book, Pagans and Christains. looks good...
cheers... -
Message 10
Posted by RainbowFfolly (U3345048) on Thursday, 17th August 2006
Hi Jon,
I may be a "non-believer" but I'm loathe to discount any historical text, religious or otherwise, based purely on my own non-beliefs. The Bible to my mind contains some historical information - it's just you need to sweep out the mythology and then check the validity of the historical information. But I'm very wary of people putting forward hypotheses that something in one of the earlier books is factual!
There's a good page on Wikipedia about biblical historical accuracy - search on "The Bible and history" and the page should come up. The page also has links to interesting items such as the "Merneptah Stele".
RF
p.s. I've been thinking about getting Robin Lane Fox's "Pagans and Christian" too! I've always been curious about the appeal saints must have had to potential convertees from pan and polytheistic religions, and hopefully he might mention something about this in the book. -
Message 11
Posted by jonsparta (U3871420) on Thursday, 17th August 2006
RF,
even as a believer i take most of the bible with a pinch of salt. it does have some good stuff but i think the version most i use too, is way watered down on the first versions, sadly not many if any survive today. but it is rummored tha the Vaticain does hold some very cool stuff, some works that have never be seen by outside eyes. but hope is not lost, this Pope is to start a review on texts, with the result that some maybe released! we can only hope.... -
Message 12
Posted by jonsparta (U3871420) on Thursday, 17th August 2006
RF, im afraid i have to head home! keep me informed on your reading!
cheers...post you later....here
on me! tell thomas theres one behind the bar for him and make Roo hasnt done anything to it! lol. -
Message 13
Posted by RainbowFfolly (U3345048) on Thursday, 17th August 2006
Jon,
Well the Vatican do have the nude statue "Aphrodite of Knidos" by the Athenian sculptor Praxiteles in their museum, so who knows what other cool stuff they've got!
RF
p.s. Haven't seen Thomas in the bar so I had to ahem... force myself to drink his... -
Message 14
Posted by Richie (U1238064) ** on Thursday, 17th August 2006
Miranda
As far as I am aware there is no mainstream historical record that details anything resembling the Israelite captivity or exodus from Egypt.
You do have the obvious caveat in that the Egyptians were highly unlikely to record such an event in offical temple inscriptions as those were for the glory of the Pharoh and such an act if it occured was hardly to the glory of the Gods of Egypt.
The Ipwr (sp) scroll that others mention is new to me so I can't coment too much on that.
Rich -
Message 15
Posted by Artorious (U1941655) on Thursday, 17th August 2006
Hi Miranda,
As has bee nmentioned. The papyrus of Ipuwer gives indications of various plagues and woes of Egypt. The tradition of the seven years of famine in Egypt is given below. The text is from a 2nd Century Ptolemaic copying but relates a story dated to the 28thC BC. (From `The Ancient Near East An Anthology of Texts and Pictures - Edited by James B Pritchard 1958)
Year 18 of the Horns: Netjer-er-khet; the King of Upper and Lower Egypt: Netjer-er-khet; the Two Goddesses: Netjer-er-khet; the Horus of Gold: Djoser, and under the Count, Mayor, Royal Acquaintance, and Overseer of Nubians in Elephantine, Madir. There was brought to him this royal decree;
To let thee know. I was in distress on the Great Throne, and those who are in the palace were in heart's affliction from a very great evil, since the Nile had not come in my time for a space of seven years. Grain was scant, fruits were dried up, and everything which they eat was short. Every man fobbed his companion. They moved without going (ahead). The infant was wailing; the youth was waiting; the heart of the old men was in sorrow, their legs were bent, crouching on the ground, their arms wtxz folded. The courtiers were in need. The temples were shut up; the sanctuaries held [nothing but] air. Every[thing] was found empty.
I extended my heart back to the beginnings, and I asked him who was the Chamberlain, the Ibis, the Chief Lector Priest Ii-em-(ho)tep," the son of Ptah, South-of-His-Wall: "What is the birthplace of the Nile? Who is... the god there? Who is the god?"
Then he answered (5) me: "I need the guidance of Him Who Presides over the House of the Fowling Net, . . . for the hearts confidence of all men about what they should do. I shall enter into the House of Life and spread out the Souls of Re, (to see) if some guidance be in them."
and everything about which they had written. He uncovered for me the hidden spells thereof, to which the ancestors had taken (their) way, without their equal among kings since the limits of time. He said to me:
"There is a city in the midst of the waters [from which] the Nile rises, named Elephantine. It is the Beginning of the Beginning, the Beginning Nome, (facing) toward Wawat." It is the joining of the land, the primeval hillock of earth, the throne of Re, when he reckons to cast life beside everybody. 'Pleasant of Life' is the name of its dwelling. 'The Two Caverns' is the name of the water; they are the two breasts which pour forth all good things. It is the couch of the Nile, in which he becomes young (again). ... He fecundates (the land) by mounting as the male, the bull, to the female; he renews (his) virility, assuaging his desire. He rushes twenty-eight cubits (high at Elephantine); he hastens at Diospolis seven cubits (high). Khnum is there as a god...."...
... As I slept in life and satisfaction, I discovered the god standing over against me. I propitiated him with praise; I prayed to him in his presence. He revealed himself to me, his face being fresh. His words were:
"I am Khnum, thy fashioner.... I know the Nile. When he is introduced into the fields, his introduction gives life to every nostril, like the introduction (of life) to the fields... The Nile will pour forth for thee, without a year of cessation or laxness for any land. Plants will grow, bowing down under the fruit, Renenut1 will be at the head of everything.... Dependents will fulfill the purposes in their hearts, (22) as well as the master. The starvation year will have gone, and (people's) borrowing from their granaries will have departed. Egypt will come into the fields, the banks will sparkle, . .. and contentment will be in their hearts more than that which was formerly."
Then I awoke quickly, my heart cutting off weariness. I made this decree beside my father Khnum:J
"An offering which the King gives to Khnum, the Lord of the Cataract Region, Who Presides over Nubia, in recompense for these things which thou wilt do for me et etc......
There is also a text of the 23rd-21st C BC mentioned by Vandier that occurs in a tomb. "When the entire Upper Egypt was dying because of hunger, with every man eating his own children. I never allowed death to occur from hunger in this nome. I gave a loan of grain to upper Egypt." -
Message 16
Posted by Eliezer, the Irish pennywhistler (U4824016) on Friday, 18th August 2006
<<< As far as I am aware there is no mainstream historical record that details anything resembling the Israelite captivity or exodus from Egypt. >>>
I frown at the idea that Hebrew Scriptures, carefully preserved word-for-word and letter-for-letter could not POSSIBLY be considered a "mainstream historical record". Is this an anti-Jewish bias?
I'm not saying it IS an historical record, as history texts were not invented for another 1000-1500 years, but the Hebrews more-or-less invented linear, progressive time and cause-and-effect historical consciousness.
Anyway, trying to cram one sort of record into modern academic categories is a fool's errand. The story tells you that God is God of the Universe, that the Egyptian "gods" are just so much hoo-hah, and that God spoke to the entire Israelite nation and THEY NEVER EVER FORGOT IT.
The survival of the Hebrew People for 3500 years is a fact and it is important. The exact details are merely interesting. -
Message 17
Posted by Miranda (U2203130) on Friday, 18th August 2006
Hello everyone
Many thanks for all the very interesting information that people have given! I shall read those recommended books with interest: open-mindedly, but still sceptically, although the problem is that I simply don't have the knowledge to evaluate, say, David Rohl's hypotheses for reasonableness, never mind accuracy! Anyway they should be an interesting read.
I should say that I'm not a Christian, and am not seeking proof of what is written in the Bible or that it is literally true (however I am currently in the middle of another readthrough from Genesis to Revelation - I'm currently in the middle of Exodus). Notwithstanding that, undeniably much of the OT in particular does consist of a historical record, and I'm interested to know whether some of the events narrated are factual - or anyway based on fact. -
Message 18
Posted by RainbowFfolly (U3345048) on Friday, 18th August 2006
Hi Eliezer Hatziftzef,
You said...
<>
No it's not an anti-Jewish bias, maybe an anti-religious/mythological text bias as we wouldn't accept the mythologies of the Greek, Roman, Egyptian etc. as mainstream historical records. They're all of some historical value (the Greek and Egyptian especially, as are the Hebrew scriptures), but definitely not mainstream historical records.
In your earlier message you state
<>
This to me would strongly indicate that we shouldn't accept it as a mainstream historical record.
<>
Belief and not history!
<>
Yup, I agree with it is a fact and it is important, but I disagree with you that the exact details are merely interesting - the details themselves are history, and not just of the Hebrews but of the other peoples in the Levant.
RF -
Message 19
Posted by Eliezer, the Irish pennywhistler (U4824016) on Friday, 18th August 2006
Hey Miranda. You ever coming back to the Jacob and Esau thing you started?
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Message 20
Posted by Eliezer, the Irish pennywhistler (U4824016) on Friday, 18th August 2006
The "mythologies of the Greek, Roman, Egyptian" were not presented as "as mainstream historical records or even as factual.
Hebrew Scriptures are.
If Hebrew Scriptures are not mainstream, what are they?
If God did NOT speak to the entire Jewish Nation at Mt. Horeb, then why has every generation throughout history organized much of their religious and spiritual life around that event? And why did they keep themselves together for 3500 years, despite murderous persecution by the Assyrians, the Greeks, the Romans and the Christians. Everybody ELSE on Earth gave up long ago.
You wanna make that survival a mere "belief" and I again see an anti-Jewish bias. -
Message 21
Posted by RainbowFfolly (U3345048) on Friday, 18th August 2006
Hi Eliezer,
<>
Simple - a religious text
<>
Blind faith - and before you start screaming "anti-Jewish bias" I'd say exactly the same for any group of people who believe, or believed in - what I consider - a mythical being.
<>
The keeping your community together is definitely something you should be proud of. Off the top of my head I can't think of any other people who have.
<>
If you read my message again then you'll find that I said the survival was a fact and important. An apology from you would be nice, but I don't think one will be forthcoming.
Oh and by the way, these are the History boards, so if you have nothing to say of of historical relevance may I suggest you take your religious rantings back to the Religion boards?
RF -
Message 22
Posted by Eliezer, the Irish pennywhistler (U4824016) on Friday, 18th August 2006
Nah. No apology. You use too many phrases like "rantings" and "blind faith"when I have discussed history and nothing but history.
By the way, Jews are opposed to "faith". You will find that out when you first sit down to study what you assert as fact.
Just because you are unable to grant the Hebrew People the central core of their Earthly existence and give it even a modicum of historical possiblity for the survival of said people under outrageous and murdserous circumstances, doesn't mean I have to bow down to you.
Jewish survival is a HISTORICAL fact and important as an anomoly of history. It's a shame your biases keep you from examining why that is.
Hebrew Scriptures are not really a religious text. You'll know that when you have read them. -
Message 23
Posted by RainbowFfolly (U3345048) on Friday, 18th August 2006
So you believe God spoke to the entire Jewish Nation at Mt. Horeb as a historical fact, and I should accept this mumbo-jumbo as historical fact just because you or some unreliable - and inconsistent - religious text say so?
I also think you have enough chips on your shoulder to start a fast-food outlet - let's call it McNutter's...
RF -
Message 24
Posted by Eliezer, the Irish pennywhistler (U4824016) on Friday, 18th August 2006
Ha ha. Some riposte there, buddy. Good one.
Your mind is too small and too closed to even bother discussing this with you, but - yes. I believe God spoke to the entire Jewish Nation at Mt. Horeb as a historical fact, and I accept this mumbo-jumbo as historical fact because of the eye-witnesses who reported on it in great detail and told their children all about it and set up most of Jewish practice to commemorate it, such as tzitzit, Passover, dozens of prayer-texts, and the Psalms of David. And the lack of any dissenting opinion (until you showed up).
I presume you are familiar with the standards of evidence we historians use. Of course the Psalms of David don't count for you because he was a Jew and wasn't named Plutarch or something and had no axe to grind on this issue. We won't even bother to get into the writings of Samuel, Joshua, the various prophets, Philo or any of dem udder Jew-types.
The text (which is still not a religious text, no matter how many times you say it in your ignorance) is just gravy. -
Message 25
Posted by lolbeeble (U1662865) on Friday, 18th August 2006
Yes, I'd presume that you are also aware of the fact that people can be steered towards having certain memories by a desire to simply fit in with the crowd and ythat such suggestability is all too common. By 'eck, what you're suggesting sounds something like Stalin's cult of personality where he beamed his image onto the clouds above red Square. Given the fact that you have a hazy knowledge on more recent aspects of Jewish history, be it the settlement of Jews in Rome or Damascus or even Flavius Ben Josephus' actions in the Jewish revolt I can't see why we should take your word for it.
In any case most of those writers are more commentators as opposed to annalists. -
Message 26
Posted by Richie (U1238064) ** on Friday, 18th August 2006
frown at the idea that Hebrew Scriptures, carefully preserved word-for-word and letter-for-letter could not POSSIBLY be considered a "mainstream historical record". Is this an anti-Jewish bias?
Μύ
Eliezer,
I'm not sure if you are the same Eliezer Pennywhistle from the Religions boards of way back, but I can assure you that no it is not an anti-jewish bias, just a bias against a single source written after the fact by authors that we cannot substantiate any other way and which while carefully copied was still copied and therefore open to political interpretation, mistakes, and memorial degradation over time. I am not saying that it isn't a semi-accurate account of a possible exodus of the Jewish people, just that there is no other record that corroborating it either. If this Ipwr (sp) scroll was considered to be cast iron secondary evidence then this disscussion wouldn't really be happening.
Yes the survival of the Jewish race and faith is an important note in both your history and the history of the western world, however I think that the details are very important, but each to their own I guess -
Message 27
Posted by Eliezer, the Irish pennywhistler (U4824016) on Saturday, 19th August 2006
OK Here it is, Ritchie.
1) I'm pretty sure I detect a tone that says something like "Egyptian documents are important. So are Babylonian stones. But the Hebrew Scriptures? Mere mythology and delusion. It don't count for poo." It's not an anti-Jewish bias, but it still smells funny.
2) It's not really a single source. It is compilation of dozens of books written over a 1000-year period. And they all start from the premise of the revelation at Mt. Sinai. That's at least a small bit of corroboration. So is the fact that all of Judaism is organized around that event and its transmission from parent to child for 100 generations.
If you had any idea how carefully those scriptures have been preserved, you would never dream of saying they are "open to political interpretation, mistakes, and memorial degradation over time". The Dead Sea Scrolls demonstrate 7 spelling errors over 1000 years, on the lines of "honor" and "honour". You really should look into the meticulous preservation of Hebrew Scriptures. It's fascinating.
The continued existence of the Jewish Nation, in exile for a majority of it's time on Earth, under horrendous persecution, simply makes no sense if it was built on a Stalinist sky-projection (done by aliens, I suppose).
3) I wasn't talking about the details of the Exodus. -
Message 28
Posted by Eliezer, the Irish pennywhistler (U4824016) on Saturday, 19th August 2006
C'mon, beeblebrox. This is just silly.
1) Who would want to simply fit in with the crowd if doing so meant persecution, torture and death at the hands of the Romans? Would mere suggestibilty explain why the Jewish Nation organized its entire life around the revelation at Sinai? Why fathers tell sons over 100 generations? Why Jews celebrate Passover, even when doing so meant their death at the hands of the Syriac-Greeks (and later the Christians and the Russian secret police)?
2) When (if) Stalin beamed his face in the crowds some people fell for it. And others knew it was hornswaggle and created underground political parties, clandestine short-wave stations, and networks of samizdat - on pain of death. When the bastard finally died, Kruschev denounced him in the Supreme Soviet. And Gorby (essentially) broke the whole thing up.
Show me anything like that in the 3500-year history of the Jewish Nation.
3) <<< Given the fact that you have a hazy knowledge on more recent aspects of Jewish history, be it the settlement of Jews in Rome or Damascus or even Flavius Ben Josephus' actions in the Jewish revolt I can't see why we should take your word for it. >>>
That's actually an odd thing to say to someone who teaches Jewish history.
Just as odd as calling Josephus "recent". Though I willagree that he was more a commentator than an annalist. -
Message 29
Posted by lolbeeble (U1662865) on Saturday, 19th August 2006
Well the Christians for starters, the cult was never more popular than when it was subjected to harsh reprisals under the likes of Diocletion. Besides which if you say anything enough times people will start to believe it and set out to prove that it is true. I mean what gave Moses the authority to state he was laying down the law, a point that was actually made to him before the revelation. Whatever the case it seems a touch silly to imply that the groups that defined themselves in the Sinai would have known about persecution at the hands of the Roman authorities over a millennium later. Mind you Roman intervention in the Levant brought an end to the hostilities with Antiochus IV that arose after he polluted the temple in Jerusalem thus guaranteeing an idependent Jewish state for the next one and a half centuries. So far as I can see the fact that they were identified with Esau's descendents seems to have had more effect on the depiction of the characters in Seven Brides for Seven Brothers.
When it comes to stories of origins I'm inclined to dismiss them with the phrase that they are many and absurd in my oppinion. Show me that it did happen, we're going round in circles however. You're quite free to follow a line befitting of Simplicio but as it stands don't attempt to state that I am denying your right to exist as a seperate entity by implying that such an event probably did not happen. You'll be telling us next that there was a lawgiver called Lycourgus, Hesiod and Muhammed were in conversation with angels or perish the thought someone could come back from the dead and then ascend to heaven leaving no physical trace on earth.
So what if you teach Jewish history, its not like it is completely seperate form the other strands of Eastern Mediteranean chronology as you yourself have pointed out on occasion. In any case its not that odd given that the references stem from other posts I have raised with you in the past while you were busy attempting to pour cold water on assertions made about Jewish history.
In any case I think the history of your views depends as much on the interaction of Hellenistic and Judaic literary traditions about a thousand years after the events you describe as might be noted by the writings of Philo of Alexandria. Again we seem to be looking at the rrelative arguments about where the jerws fit into the overall scheme of history given the attempts to write off Judaism as having no antiquity. Mind you there us a general paucity of information from the Hellenistic period as a whole and personally I've always been supicious of those Platonists with their need to resort to a higher authority be it Monad, Phaedrus or whatever. -
Message 30
Posted by Eliezer, the Irish pennywhistler (U4824016) on Saturday, 19th August 2006
I honestly have neither the time nor the patienceto figure out what any of that means.
Parsing the sentence << I mean what gave Moses the authority to state he was laying down the law, a point that was actually made to him before the revelation. >> is enough to give me a headache.
Thanks for giving my historical points such deep and intelligent consideration.
You were composing "rebuttals" before you even fishished what I wrote. Never mind contemplating them.
Foo.
Ta ta. -
Message 31
Posted by Richie (U1238064) ** on Saturday, 19th August 2006
Eliezer,
1) My your powers of second guessing are second to none I would say. Egyptian documents are important, babylonian documents are important, Jewish documents are important. What are less important (at least for this line of enquiry) are Egyptian Religous texts, Babylonian Religious texts and Jewish Religous texts. I would have your sense of smell looked at if I were you.
2) Thank you for the clarification, its not one author its lots, writing over a large period unconnected with the previous authors and quite possibley unconnected with the times they were writing about. The fact that Judaism is centred around events that happened in the Arabian peninsula possibly at some point in the past which has never quite been pinned down to an exact date corresponding to any of the rulers surrounding the lands of Cannan is neither here nor there.
Do I have any idea of how carefully preserved they are? No not really, but then do you? We are talking about a collection of books for which the oldest records are 2000 years old. Until the DSS came about IIRC the oldest extant text was about 1000/1500 years old. How accurate are the DSS? The Septugant (sp) only goes back to about 500BC at the earliest which is all post Babylon. How much data survived the destruction of the Judahic state? How much survived the earlier Israeli state destruction? How much was reconstructed by the survivors trying to put back as much as they could? Again how much political intervention occured with the construction of the texts? Politics always become involved with religious texts.
The fact that the difference between the DSS and modern Torahic scripts doesnt tell us anything about the time prior to the DSS, it only really tells us about the time since then. Different disscusion completly.
Do I really need to dignify your last paragraph with an answer? Since its Saturday and I'm feeling generous I will. Hogwash. The continued or otherwise of the Jewish people and possibly (though if they keep up their latest shenanigans unlikely)survival of the Israeli state has nothing to do with God. Your faith provided a bulwark against others, yes. Your faith gave you the means to stay seperate and distinct from others around you, yes. Did God lead you back to Palestine and the formation of a new Israel? No. Politicians did. Generals and their soldiers gave their life and blood for the continued existence of that state. The last time I saw God do anything was also the last time I saw Santa Claus delivering presents on Xmas eve.
3) I was. Although I was also talking about Historical details in general as well -
Message 32
Posted by The Ice Cool Prophet (U2308740) on Saturday, 19th August 2006
Eliezer Hatziftzef
"Then again, we Jews don't read Exodus text hyper-literally, and DO take account of the fact that Exodus is a work of poetry, and is to a greater or lesser degree fictional.
Unfortunately, Miranda is a Christian and is stuck with trying to interpret a mediocre English translation of an ancient Hebrew text."
Eliezer Hatziftzef
"Then again, we Jews don't read Exodus text hyper-literally, and DO take account of the fact that Exodus is a work of poetry, and is to a greater or lesser degree fictional.
Unfortunately, Miranda is a Christian and is stuck with trying to interpret a mediocre English translation of an ancient Hebrew text."
We know you personally do not take Exodus seriously otherwise you would actually know the ten commandments a little better.
Exodus Book 20 versus 3-17 – as taken from a site about Judaism
1. You shall have no other Gods but me.
2. You shall not make for yourself any idol, nor bow down to it or worship it.
3. You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God.
4. You shall remember and keep the Sabbath day holy.
5. Respect your father and mother.
6. You must not kill.
7. You must not commit adultery.
8. You must not steal.
9. You must not give false evidence against your neighbour.
10. You must not be envious of your neighbour's goods. You shall not be envious of his house nor his wife, nor anything that belongs to your neighbour
You note number 1 does not mention the passover and number 3 is indeed about blasphemy. Incedentally number one states quite catagorically that "Thou shalt have no other god before me."
Why should I bother to learn more about any religion that places their god above any other in such a manner. It is all I need to know.
The G
PS apologies to everyone else on the thread -
Message 33
Posted by lolbeeble (U1662865) on Saturday, 19th August 2006
Aye, well you know how it goes, never give a sucker an even break...
-
Message 34
This posting has been hidden during moderation because it broke the in some way.
-
Message 35
Posted by Eliezer, the Irish pennywhistler (U4824016) on Sunday, 20th August 2006
Ritchie:
The revelation at Sinai is not based on a text. It is based on the eyewitnesses to the event creating holidays and rituals to pass down to their children what they saw and heard in great detail. And it is based on the subsequent organization of Hebrew / Israel / Judean / Jewish life almost entirely around that event. As I said, the text is gravy.
Sinai may or may not be in the Arabian peninsula. It might well be in the Sinai peninsula. We decided to obscure that issue - as well as Moses' burial location - to avoid people worshipping such things.
<<< Do I have any idea of how carefully preserved they are? No not really, but then do you? We are talking about a collection of books for which the oldest records are 2000 years old. >>>
Try 3000 years. And they are scrolls - not books. The subject of the preservation of Hebrew Scriptures is utterly fascinating. Your questions in that regard are interesting. Your conclusions are bone-headed. This is the History Board, right? Do some research.
<<< The continued or otherwise of the Jewish people has nothing to do with God. >>>
That's not what God said. And ALL the other nations and empires from the time of Sinai forward are no longer around for some reason.
<<< Did God lead you back to Palestine and the formation of a new Israel? No. Politicians did. Generals and their soldiers gave their life and blood for the continued existence of that state. >>>
Never once said He did. You cannot begin to imagine how hard we Zionists had to fight the Jewish religious establishment over the past 150 years! A fascinating story for history buffs, BTW. Start with the Enlightenment, go to the Jewish Enlightenment, and get into the Dreyfus Affair and Theodore Herzl.
<<< The last time I saw God do anything was also the last time I saw Santa Claus delivering presents on Xmas eve. >>>
Cute. Juvenile, but cute. No wonder you cannot fathom what I am talking about or what Judaism is about. Too bad. -
Message 36
Posted by Richie (U1238064) ** on Sunday, 20th August 2006
my word what a bitter person you are.
1) The revalation at Sinai is a text. Written down by whoever wanted to codify the nascent Jewish faith.
2) The fact that you have no idea which Mt Sinai you want is another facet showing how little information has escaped down the centuries. As for the grave of Moses', well we have as yet not found Arthurs either and for much the same reason.
3) 3000 years you say. Where is the text held? Would love to go to the museum where it is held. And I am not being facetious there either, I would love to see such an early copy of one of the articles of my faith.
My conclusions are boneheaded? yet you offer no explanations no anyalsis just some random abuse
4) This is where this conversation should be continued on the Religions board. Did Assyria and Babylon fall? Yes. Did Jerusalem fall? Yes. Has Rome fallen yet? Not entirely, the Empire in one guise or another has kept on kicking. But as I said this is not so much a historical point more a theocratic one
5)Yes, well Zionists dont have the best press even within Israel. Rightwing will always be rightwing regardless of the faith involved
6) I don't really think you fathom much about your faith either. My comments? Yes it was a little low brow but it highlights rather nicely why certain lines of enquiry are better off on the Religions boards than on the History ones -
Message 37
Posted by Richie (U1238064) ** on Sunday, 20th August 2006
I've done a little digging as well into Ezra and his role in the writing of the Torah. Again it seems that 3000 years on your part is optimistic. It would appear that after leading an exodus of Iraelites back to Jerusalem in c.459BC he set about putting to paper the Torah, including his own books, editing and rearranging other books such as Daniel, Esther and Ezekiel and some authorities also hold that he re-edited the Five Books of Moses as well.
I might be off a little in the 2000, but you are also off in the 3000 assesment. -
Message 38
Posted by The Ice Cool Prophet (U2308740) on Sunday, 20th August 2006
Richie
I would give up now.
I have "debated! with this person on the Muslim Topic. I was there see if any Muslims were as concerned as I was about things.
Why anyone would want to trawl through the Muslim, and i hav noticed the Christian board to whinge at people of other faiths is beyond me.
I avoid the Christian Topic because I do not believe they wish to read my views on their religion on THEIR board.
I would consider that to be trolling!
The G -
Message 39
Posted by Eliezer, the Irish pennywhistler (U4824016) on Monday, 21st August 2006
<<< The revalation at Sinai is a text. Written down by whoever wanted to codify the nascent Jewish faith. >>>
That's it in a nutshell, Ritchie. For some reason (not supported by history or logic) you think that the Jewish People began with some "whoever" writing a text and all the People bowed down to it. How "whoever" gathered this People together, I don't know. How "whoever" convinced everybody that something happened which did not happen, I don't know.
Neither do you.
I finally figured out that you are not arguing from history -- you are arguing from "only fools believe in God".
As an aside, you still seem to be hazy on God creating Zionism (or some such thing). Apparently you wrote that to wind me up or something. Same with "Zionists dont have the best press even within Israel. Rightwing will always be rightwing regardless of the faith involved." which is so off-topic as to make me wonder what you are really about.
Your deliberate misreading of what I had to say about Sinai and Moses' grave lead me to the conclusion that this is just pearls before swine.
So I shall leave this "conversation" with the admonition: Don't write about history before you have read history.
Ta ta. -
Message 40
Posted by Eliezer, the Irish pennywhistler (U4824016) on Monday, 21st August 2006
I really have left. I promise! But I didn't notice your little squib about Ezra.
Trust me -- Ezra the Scribe preserved the ancient text. He didn't create it. He returned to the remnants of a 1000-year-old civilization shattered by war and conquest and got it back on it's feet. He didn't invent that civilization.
The very fact that the biblical books persistently survived the most deleterious conditions throughout a long history demonstrates that indefatigable scribes insisted on its preservation.
"It would appear" that you have an awful lot more reading to do.
And see what you can find out about Ezra's preservation of the non-textual Oral Law. -
Message 41
Posted by JayCee (U4916660) on Monday, 21st August 2006
The Merneptah Stele is one, although its status is controversial due to the way in which the Stele can be read, in that it refers to Israel not as a country but as a people: it is suggested as a nomadic tribe by some authorities (eg Donald Redford.
As the Stele dates from the 13th Century BCE, it would postdate Joseph (provided one accepts that such a person existed and that the usual dating of the Exodus from Egypt is correct, subjects upon which I have no view at all). -
Message 42
Posted by RainbowFfolly (U3345048) on Monday, 21st August 2006
I presume you are familiar with the standards of evidence we historians use.Μύ
Historian?!?! Your standards are about on par with Erich Von Daniken as far as historians go.
Thanks, for making me smile on a cold and grey Monday. At first I though you were just funny-peculiar but now I realise you're funny-ha-ha too...
RF -
Message 43
Posted by Eliezer, the Irish pennywhistler (U4824016) on Monday, 21st August 2006
Took you long enough to catch that.
-
Message 44
Posted by RainbowFfolly (U3345048) on Monday, 21st August 2006
Eliza said:
Trust meΜύ
About as much as I trust Jonathan Aitken and Jeffrey "Baron Munchausen" Archer...
RF -
Message 45
Posted by Richie (U1238064) ** on Monday, 21st August 2006
Eliezer,
Please try an learn how to spell my name. I have tried to make sure that I spell yours in the manner that you have presented it here.
However, I know that you have stated your aim to leave this thread but I feel that I should at least answer your parting shots.
1) Where did the Jewish People start? I haven't stated that I know, however I know that I also havent waved a text about claiming that "its all in here" If you do take the Bible or the Torah as a given then the Jewish People did begin with a "whoever" That "whoever" being Abram who did "write a text" and convinced other people that "something" happened. Although I am glad to see you admiting that you don't know what happened either.
2) Again the second guessing. What makes you think that I don't beleive in God or a God for that matter. As it happens I do beleive in a God, I just don't beleive that men are incapable of making a mistake or just plain making stuff up.
3)It was you that brought Zionism into this particular thread. My problem with rightwing politics might not be relevant to this particular thread for which I will say "fair cop" but my point about it in general stands
4) What makes you think I misread or misunderstood your point about Moses' grave or the Sinai problem? My retort was aimed at showing how myth and legend entwin themselves onto possible people of long ago but such entwining leaves us much the poorer about facts regarding possible real acheivements.
I would give you the same admonition really Eliezer
Toodlepip old chap -
Message 46
Posted by Richie (U1238064) ** on Monday, 21st August 2006
Opps, dreadfully sorry, Ezra the Scribe.
Did I say that Ezra invented the Jewish Culture? No I didn't. That he ammended the scrolls has been investigated by Rabbi's and found to have some merit so I think I am on safer ground there.
As far as the Oral Tradition is concerned it wasn't codified untill the 2nd century AD so the role of Ezra would have to be taken under consideration since such a codification would have taken place some 500 years or more after his death -
Message 47
Posted by mick197a (U5358380) on Tuesday, 22nd August 2006
Miranda,, a related subject?,,,,,,, the possible logistics of moving the supplies needed to sustain the multitude and their animals are for some reason never considered , Neither are the technical problems involved in such `simple` activities as crossing the red Sea, even including the miracle?. SO--"600,000 that were men", across a desert area and the sea, I know there are many explanations suggesting the Israelites moved to the North nearer the Mediterranean, unfortunately throughout all of these periods that area was fortified and manned by Egyptian forces, primarily to prevent invasion and assist in trade.
600,000 plus family and livestock and "stolen goods"? Would never have made it.
The Donkeys?, the prime mover of the time, camels came in much later , the quantities I have used are probably absolute minimums.
600,000 that were men (no mention of women) beside children: exodus 13: 37
A mixed multitude went with them, even very much cattle.
Assume one million people and 2 million cattle or beasts.
Assume one pound food per day per person = 450 tonnes per day
Assume two pints water per day = 250,000 gallons = 1000 tonnes per day
Assume animals require the same tonnage = 1000 tonnes per day
Assume animal fodder after foraging = 200 tonnes per day
________
2650 tonnes per day
Transport available,, donkeys,, load = 200 pounds = 32,000 donkeys. Every 15 miles, 180,000 donkeys moving one-way, 180,000 returning.
They all require 33 tons food and water. Per day. Per 32,000. 200 tonnes food and water for donkey transport alone, minimum.
Caravan length, people only,, 20 abreast ten feet apart = 96 miles not including animals.
Speed of travel,, 15 miles per day,, (xenaphon`s Greek army of 10,000 ?)
Distance to the Gulf of Suez approximately 100 miles. Six days travel.
Gulf of Suez approximately 20 miles wide. Caravan crossing time over seven days.
Distance to the red Sea,, approximately hundred and 50 miles plus.
red Sea approximately 100 miles wide, head of column crossing six days whole column not less than 12 days.
No provision is made for food and water in that crossing, Pharaohs army is within striking distance, 600 chariots with drivers and spearsman, against 600,000 with some weapons.?? Note: the chariots would not need to attack the main body, simply interrupted the supply lines.
Desert water supply obtained from rock, required ,500,000 gallons per day, distributed over the multitude,??
(There is one particular water supply in the northern Sinai , a spring that produces about 1500 gallons but it is well within the probable purview of the Egyptian garrison troops, there are also no archaeological indications of large population at this site during the approximate dates of Exodus, many pottery shards etc are found prior to and post Exodus, non that would indicate a population of Israelites.)
Food source obtained from desert,Manna, in excess of 400 tonnes per day required .
Over a period of 40 years ?
It all seems very unlikely to me. M -
Message 48
Posted by Eliezer, the Irish pennywhistler (U4824016) on Tuesday, 22nd August 2006
Richie
Sorry about misspelling Richie. I was thinking of Ritchie Rich, the poor little rich boy.
Your big problem is that you are fixated on the text of the Torah. You think that the text invented something that was not there. Or caused some gullible clowns to fall for a raver. You think that Jews bow down to it in slavish devotion. You think Jews wave a text about claiming that "its all in here".
To which I say, "don't lay your Christian boogie on my Jewish jazz".
Abraham DID write a mystical text, but I doubt that you are familiar with it.
Claiming that Ezra amended Hebrew Scripture is a hell of a thing to say, and you'd best be bringing some evidence to the picnic.
"That he ammended the scrolls has been investigated by Rabbi's and found to have some merit so I think I am on safer ground there."
Silliest sentence I have read all week.
<<< As far as the Oral Tradition is concerned it wasn't codified untill the 2nd century AD >>>
It was never NOT codified. As Rome had killed most of the professional memorizers and the OT was getting larger and more unwieldy, it was deemed prudent to write it down in the 2nd Century.
Once again you have no idea how oral transmission works in an oral culture. And you have no idea what the Oral Torah is or how it works or why it remained oral since the time of Moses. Do you. -
Message 49
Posted by The Ice Cool Prophet (U2308740) on Tuesday, 22nd August 2006
Dear Buckcherry, or Eleizer
Have done a tiny amount of research and low you are actually correct on one thing. Withing the Jewish faith there is no immediate access to a Heavan or Hell type existence.
You have to wait until the day of judgement at the end of time.
Where apon the "chosen ones" will be permitted to live again.
Hmmm, we are back to follow me if you want a decent afterlife, though evn then we have to wait a while.
Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
"Love"
The G -
Message 50
Posted by Eliezer, the Irish pennywhistler (U4824016) on Wednesday, 23rd August 2006
You didn't get that from a Jewish source, did you.
Sheer daftness.
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