Ancient and ArchaeologyΒ permalink
Origins of Picts
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Message 1.Β
Posted by GreenDoctor (U3913526) on Wednesday, 10th May 2006
We all know that the English are germans that were unwanted, but where did the Picts come from? Evience points to Northern Ireland and Norway.
There is new evidence to suggest they may have come from elsewhere, such as Scythia. The Weilsh are dark with dark hair originally, the south east has a lot of blondes and scotland has redheads. This may not have changed much in thousands of year. -
Message 2
Posted by DrkKtn6851746 (U2746042) on Thursday, 11th May 2006
'Picts' is a term that only emerged after several centuries of Roman, gradually replacing 'Caledonians'.
Tacitus remarked that the physical characteristics of the Caledonians, including redder hair, indicated a Germanic origin. These proto-Picts were essentially identical to more southerly Britons in terms of language & religion.
There's no real reason to consider the Picts to have been anything other than P-Celtic Britons who weren't conquered by Rome - later origin myths describing e.g. Scythian origins are to be taken no more seriously than those that suggested the Scots came from Egypt, or the Britons from Troy. -
Message 3
Posted by mykingdomforanus (U3953747) on Thursday, 11th May 2006
It is not to say that the Anglo Saxons were unwanted. The migration over the north sea was merely one link in the migration chain that came about with the decline of the roman empire.
The areas surrounding the north sea of Jutland, Friesland and the mouth of the Rhine were at the end of the line of a gradual migration of peoples that began with the steppes of Eastern Europe (Huns, Magyars and so on).
These low lying coastal regions were not the most fertile, whereas Britain on the other hand was fertile, was relatively rich and there were germanic tribesmen who were already there (as mercenaries within the roman army).
These were the "push and pull" factors of the post roman migration period into britain from the continent. -
Message 4
Posted by GreenDoctor (U3913526) on Thursday, 11th May 2006
Perhaps it was the Scots that came from Northern Ireland, but are they also essentially the same people as the Picts? Is thee any real difference between the Celts and Germans anyway.
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Message 5
Posted by DrkKtn6851746 (U2746042) on Thursday, 11th May 2006
Yup, the Scots came from Northern Ireland, but were a different people to the Picts - Q-Celts who spread eastwards, gradually obliterating Pictish language & culture.
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Message 6
Posted by GreenDoctor (U3913526) on Thursday, 11th May 2006
Confusing. What is the difference at any real level between these groups of Celts and germans. ALso, are the Scots an Irish people. Its possible they could have been invaders to Ireland from Scandannavia.
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Message 7
Posted by TonyG (U1830405) on Thursday, 11th May 2006
I'd be interested to know what this "new evidence" is. The legend of a Scythian, or perhaps Egyptian, origin is for the Scots, not the Picts, and is a very old story. According to the story an Egyptian princess named Scota went to Ireland with a band of Scythians. The Scots, as they became known, later crossed the Irish Sea and took over the west of what is now Scotland. There is no way of proving whether this is true or not, and it seems so far-fetched that few in Scotland are even aware of the story nowadays. I first read about it in the 1960s, so I don't think it can be called "new evidence".
As for the Picts, their origins are probably the same as those of most northern Europeans. I have no idea what evidence DNA research gives but I suspect the ancestors of the Picts were the neolithic farmers who lived in places like Skara Brae and Tealing. -
Message 8
Posted by Huscarl (U1753368) on Thursday, 11th May 2006
TonyG
This pseudo-wind-up merchant, but a toothless one, told me to read his thread, so I have- and ridiculous he is! LOL.
You and the other educated posters here are tearing apart the Greendoctors' laughable bigotry and stupidity with knowledge, maturity, historical knowledge and correct grammar and spelling!
This child wants merely to slag off the English due to some unexplained and bitter chip, but has no IQ ;-( -
Message 9
Posted by GreenDoctor (U3913526) on Thursday, 11th May 2006
Oh dear, I think I have a stalker. If you dont want to read it, much less respond, then dont. Tube.
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Message 10
Posted by Huscarl (U1753368) on Friday, 12th May 2006
You mean the same way that YOU attempted to 'hijack' my other thread, only with bad grammar, spelling, innaccuracy and bitterness?
C'est la vie, doc. -
Message 11
Posted by GreenDoctor (U3913526) on Saturday, 13th May 2006
My latest thread is going down a treat. Stay tuned for more. Dont worry, we cant all be windswept and interesting.
Doctor. -
Message 12
Posted by U3153557 (U3153557) on Friday, 19th May 2006
As I understand it, the latest research suggests that the inhabitants of Western Britain are descended from those who moved north as the ice retreated and are closely related to the Basques. Certainly I've been told that the frequency of O rh negative is a very good indicator of Basque connections. It's my blood group, so I noticed.
I always find myself in a difficult position in these discussions because, as Tinkerbell dies, I have to admit that I DON'T BELIEVE IN ANGLOSAXONS. I think that everyone was sick of the exploitation practiced by the independent Roman rulers of Britannia and that their British language, not being a warrior-language any more except in Scotland, had very low prestige. They therefore, by and large, backed the mercenary revolt and adopted their germanic language, soon becoming 'Saxon', while 'anybody who was anybody' moved west. I think we are, mostly, living just where our ancestors lived, and all the ethnic-cleansing stuff is an intellectual hangover from the Nineteenth Century. I could be wrong, of course. It's been known! -
Message 13
Posted by TwinProbe (U4077936) on Tuesday, 23rd May 2006
I believe that the description Pict was first used by Roman historians in the third century. The Picts first become 'archaeologically visible' with their beautiful carved stone slabs in the 6th century AD. I would agree that almost certainly they represent the Iron Age population of modern Scotland unconquered by Rome.
If you are ever in the Shetlands try to visit the incredible site at Old Scatness, which is presently being excavated. A broch was partially demolished and had a middle iron age wheelhouse inserted into it. Later still a Pictish cellular dwelling was inserted into that. The stump of the broch tower is still visible surrounded by an Iron Age village; finds have included Pictish carved stones, painted pebbles, and imported Roman goods!
The point being that there seems to be slow 'cultural' changes on the same site from the middle IA to the Pictish period, until the whole process was deflected by Viking settlement around 800 AD. I use the word 'deflected' as a neutral term although the actual nature of the process would have to form the subject of a separate discusssion.
Where the Picts 'ultimately' came from may not be a profitable question; arrived in the mesolithic may be the best answer.
TP -
Message 14
Posted by Artorious (U1941655) on Tuesday, 23rd May 2006
Hi all
As discussed in a previous thread I have an outlandish theory that the Picts / Pretani are the same as the Tuathe De Danaan (people of Danu) or branch of same. Pretani being People of Tani or Dani or Danu of course.(Pr or Per being indo European root word for 'people of' or 'born of' or 'children of') If this is near the mark then their origin is P celtic and probably eastern. -
Message 15
Posted by mykingdomforanus (U3953747) on Wednesday, 24th May 2006
Pryor was useful in hihlighting the point about continuity but in his search for controvery serious flawed his own idea.
Yes there are examples of an elite imposing a language on another culture, i.e. Ireland, but these are poor examples. An elite did not change the language in France. More importantly, the elite did not change 80% of the place names in France either.
The old mass ethnic cleansing to Wales argument is simply a red herring for supporters of the elite theory. Noone believes in the ethnic cleansing model anymore, and the elite theory is untenable.
Most people now believe the truth lies in the middle. -
Message 16
Posted by mykingdomforanus (U3953747) on Wednesday, 24th May 2006
That is a frankly bizarre theory. With no evidence. Just conjecture.
Why did the acculturalisation stop. Where did it stop? Along the Shropshire border?
After the decline of the Roman Empire the vacuum this created meant that the whole of Europe was on the move. Huns & Magyars from the Steppes, Visigoths into Northern Italy, Franks into France.
The germanic settlement into britain was part of this overall population movement through Europe. -
Message 17
Posted by U3153557 (U3153557) on Wednesday, 24th May 2006
mykingdomforanus - Well, certainly not along the Shropshire border, for a great deal of that county, like a great deal of Hereford is historically Cymru.
The whole of Europe, manifestly, was NOT on the move, though gangs of younger-sons-on-the-make may well have been, forming themselves, doubtless, into Al Capone-like 'tribes' for the purpose.
I think we underestimate the degree to which the power-people of the past regarded people like themselves as 'everybody'. Why should we suppose gangsters would take over farms from those who knew how to farm them, when they could so easily get the equivalent of protection-money from the people doing the work?
The dependence of the Roman army on heavy taxes meant, in the end, that its protection simply wasn't worth having, so the people went in with the barbarians. Wild theories of massacre simply do not fit what we know of people or agriculture - nor with any evidence at all, surely? They are just things certain kinds of English people like to believe about their past. I can only say that not one of those I've spoken to has ever convinced me as a wild barbarian, try as he might. I suppose their golden age has sadly gone by!
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