Ancient and ArchaeologyΒ permalink
Bosnian Pyramid - Any General Thoughts?
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Message 1.Β
Posted by jllb0221 (U3587794) on Thursday, 27th April 2006
Earlier in the week, there was a big to-do about the discovery of polished stones at the dig in Bosnia around the pyramid that's being investigated. Since then, I've read some articles calling the archaeologist on-site a flake, an "Indiana Jones" wannabe, etc. I know nothing about this region so I have a few questions:
1) Who were the some of the ancient civilizations that inhabited the region?
2) Is there any indication that the civilizations that grew & flourished in this area had any inclination towards pyramid building?
3) Is there any mention of this pyramid in any of the historical texts? If it's so big, then wouldn't there be some mention of the building of it or the structure itself?
4) If the archaeologist who is heading & directing the dig (his name escapes me at the moment) is considered an expert on South American pyramids, why is he being more or less laughed at about this pyramid? -
Message 2
Posted by astrolog (U191670) on Sunday, 30th April 2006
See and for a profile of Semir Osmanagic.
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Message 3
Posted by astrolog (U191670) on Sunday, 30th April 2006
See an 'Exclusive interview with Semir Osmanagic' @
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Message 4
Posted by Nik (U1777139) on Sunday, 30th April 2006
You may find pyramids all over the world. Even in Greece there have been found 3 pyramids in southern Greece which are of a relatively smaller size (compared to Egyptian and South American) and they seem to be older than Mycenean, Minoan and perhaps even Minyan civilisation (Minyans were a misty civilisation in mainland Greece that flourished even before Minoans in Crete). Other known pyramids are in Japan (found underwater recently) and in France (known to have existed and been of relatively small size but destroyed by fanatic christians)
Thus it really does not surprise me this finding in Bosnia and really I do not know why this man is ridiculed - unless it is a hoax of his I can imagine that it is either his un-scientific approach on such issues or the good-old traditional stubborness of archaiologists to accept new things in their theories... why have anyone ever tried to really study and date the Greek pyramids of Peloponesus or the dragon-house in Euvoia (built at 1400m altitude using granite stones of 10s of tons levelled to admirable precision and lifted to serve as ... ceilings!), has anyone ever studied all these, and we are talking about one of the most frequently studied archaiologically countries... hence, what chance may have one little pyramid in Bosnia? -
Message 5
Posted by Nik (U1777139) on Sunday, 30th April 2006
There were not many civilisations that lived and flourished in Bosnia over the last 5000 years. Before 3000 B.C. it must had been proto-Graeco-thraecian tribes or since this name is non-applicable we should simply mention proto-Mediterranean tribes which were progressively pushed and then largely replaced by Illyrian tribes (Dinaric anthropologic tribe). From there on Ilyrrians prevailed till 6th century AD when the first slavic tribes descended and 'slavonised' the whole area - though that was mainly done linguistically as anthropologically the area remained predominantly Dinaric.
Since pyramid building was a fashion well before 1000 B.C. then it would be largely difficult to find who made that unless we also find writtings on it that can be deciphered. Till now we know no culture that could be associated. -
Message 6
Posted by Idamante (U1894562) on Wednesday, 3rd May 2006
A step pyramid - "the tomb of Amphion" - dated to 21st century BC was discovered in Greece (near Thebes)
"The important thing about the tomb of Amphion is that it is the only such structure in Hellas in the shape of a stepped pyramid (Zigurat). A similar structure is found in Egypt at Zoser, which was deemed the masterpiece of of the architect Imhotep. The monument of Zethus and Amphion dates to the pre-Mycenaean proto-Hellenic period, while the box-like grave on the top of the hill dates back to the meso-Hellenic period. Therefore, this site is extremely old and similar in age to the Egyptian stepped pyramids of the 5th and 6th Dynasties (2500-2000 BC)."
Th. Spiropoulos, 1981
The pyramid has been cited as evidence of ancient Egyptian influence on Greek civilization, especially by M Bernal in "Black Athena" (1987). -
Message 7
Posted by Stoggler (U1647829) on Thursday, 4th May 2006
One reason why this guy's theory is being debunked is because of the assumed age of the pyramid - he's talking about 12,000 years ago which would have coincided with the last ice age being in full force and the Balkans consequently would not have been able to support a complex society that was needed to construct such a memorial.
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Message 8
Posted by Nik (U1777139) on Thursday, 4th May 2006
Well, his date of 12,000 seems to be influenced by those theories that want developed civilisations around 10,000. I do not know if the climatic conditions permitted or not developped civilisations and I am not 100% convinced that one cannot built a puramid in a colder climate of an average temperature of 5 degrees - if one is well dressed I would think he would prefer that than working in Egypt under 40 degrees Celcium! Of course the temperature is referring mostly to agrivultural production but then isn't Ukraine the wheat producer of Europe but also a very cold country? Do not get me wrong, my mind does not go directly to 12,000 years ago but I cannot dismiss anything unless there is proper study - I only dismiss the writer cos himself also does not have substantial proof of his dating (more influenced by all that atmosphere of going further back). However, the dating further in the depths of history is not a fashion or a trend, it is a reality as everyday we dig and find things that were not constructed in 2000 B.C. and later but millenia earlier.
On the other hand, the Bernal "Mr. black yellow red Athena" that Gaiseric mentioned is long set aside as yet another charlatan of history. Not to mention that wherever there is pyramid there does not have to be an Egyptian... pyramids exist from America to Japan but there is nothing that connects them to Egyptian. Quite the opposite there are hints that connect them to other civilisations.
... o yes, and Egyptians were not by any means 'black'.... -
Message 9
Posted by lolbeeble (U1662865) on Thursday, 4th May 2006
Nick, its all a bit too Atlantean for my liking, didn't Tiwanika in Bolivia wind up being claimed to be 10,000 years old by some crackpot or another. One for Google I suspect...
Anyway, I'm far more interested in the recent papers suggesting Santorini errupted even earlier than the mid seventeenth century BC thats platying havoc with my understanding of the chronology of Crete.
Oh yes, according to US racial legislation the Egyptians would primarily have been classified as coloured. -
Message 10
Posted by Nik (U1777139) on Friday, 5th May 2006
lolbeeble I know your views on very early civilisations - but then even me (in general a supporter of the existence of "more advanced than we thought them to be" civilisations I am really sceptical each time someone dates a monument without a full scientific research just to make it more ancient.
As far as the US racial legislation, or the current US views on race (both from the perspective of "whites" and "blacks" these are utterly ridiculous. The notion of white is purely angolsaxonic invention (Hitler has nothing to do here, only pure anglosaxonic viewing) and it is not accidental that you find it only in english speaking countries. Imagine that in England I had repeatedly been described by people of jamaican or indian ancestry as 'non-white' because I did not have the typical 'anglo-saxo-style-whiteness' (imagine that for a greek I am really white since spending much of my time in northern Europe). I would reply that of course I am not white, I am first of all Greek (thus of mediteranean affinity) - white skin have also Mongols and Finnish and all East and West Europe the rest and I am in no way related closely to any of those. But since most of those would be of jamaican ancestry I would tell them directly "you are not in any sense black, you are a half-cast and as many ancestors of yours were born in afica other so were born in Europe" (its not kind to remind somethings but then truth is truth, for me Bob Marley is as much related to Europe as to Africa. For Ethiopeans are so different to Senegalese as Mongols to English. There is nothing like black and white but there are other distinctions based on real characteristics rather than the degree of sun protection. If you paint me black would I pass as a Senegalese? Or if you paint a senegalese white whould he pass for an Italian? I do not think so.
Egyptians had distictive anthropological characteristics that were far more close to Mediterranean (western semitic also - which was very close to mediterranean) rather than subsaharan africa. If there were any subsaharan people present in the Egyptian Empire these would be either as alled mercenaries at best, workers or slaves - but these would not be Egyptians in any sense. And in any case these subsaharan would be coming from Sudan and Ethiopea thus of mixed ancestry (with ancestors Indodravidians coming from India). Of course we are talking about a kingdom that lasted for millenia thus intermixture was well expected and that is why in the later phases of Egypt anthropologic characteristics took the fomr that is found today in Coptic Christians - the only original descendants of southern Egyptian tribes - and these despite being dark are nowhere near any other tribe found in Mali or in Namimbia. The fact that Egypt had been a rather strict caste society (like India) says a lot about the actual ancestry of Egyptians.
I really really do not care at all about social conditions in USA and what are their perspectives, I have not the slightest respect for a large number of their wannabe-called academics thus I will be always against any fasle description of history done as-if to raise the status of a social group. What if a young man in USA grows up then goes to study and he sees that all this 'out-of-africa-black-egypt' thing was yet another well constructed story to make fool out of him. As if Africa has no interesting history and we have "to give them something" (as Bernal himself said). That is really another form of deep deep racism and these people have no need of such things. Shame. -
Message 11
Posted by Nik (U1777139) on Friday, 5th May 2006
Now about the Santorini you mentioned yes I read the article in a greek newspaper (quite astonishing as newspapers in greece rarely do articles on such issues). It is something that I had been saying years now despite I am not any researcher (I am not a scientist and this is not my profession of course!). It just did not seem right that these kingdoms were long forgotten in the past and there was no mentioning from later Greeks anywhere - thus in order that there is no mentioning much time must have elapsed thus I would push the dates as back as real proof may permit and the eruption as measured by volcanic ashes in the Arctic is quite a more plausible proof than intercomparison of artifacts.
I never believed that the eruption was the cause of te demise of the Minoan civilisation. I think all that myth was the heritage of Marinatos, that greek archaiologist who formed the theory that the eruption was the cause of the demise of the Minoan civilisation (destroyed by tsunamis and fires and earthquakes) and that this was the inspiration for the myth of Atlantis. Marinatos though said that back in the 1930s and till 1950s, since then I think we have evolved a lot to know that the eruption was terrible but it mostly destoryed Thera and not so much Crete. In Crete there was a combination of factors that influenced negatively their commerce, and since this was an elaborate society that was based on commerce, once that balance was affected it would be difficult to reinstate the situation. This catastrophe might have mostly affected their cultivations for a couple of years or more but that is enough to being economic drawback but most importantly it could have changed - via earthquakes - the sources of water (that happens often in Greece), something of vital importance for cities of more than 30-40.000 people supplied with water via ducts on an island that has no stream big enough to be called a small river. And we all know that it is really difficult to start again from the beggining, usually people just leave for other places (and that is what Minoans did - it is the time of heavy colinisation of the Palestine, what do you think were the Philistines?). Strangely enough, Jewish later intermixted Cretans and Greeks since as by miracle in the place of Philistine colonies there "appeared" Greek colonies which must give us a kind of hint about what language and ethnicity were Minoans (I say nothing!!! I just make an observation!). -
Message 12
Posted by Nik (U1777139) on Friday, 5th May 2006
And since I know that many will fall on me on the last comment, I have to share with you my general views that want also Phrygians to be very closely related to Greeks (as close as Portuguese are with western Spanish). Not only we know bits of their language and they share basic words with ancient Greek but also we saw in history a complete smooth absorption by Greeks.
That goes for Thraecians also (a term badly misued to desribe any tribe from southernn Europe... up to Ukraine and ... the north Pole!). No! "Thraecians" lived in the eastern part of the peninsula but they were not in any sense all one and the same nation or tribe or whatever - many of them (especially in the south) might have been really intermixtures or even direct cousins of the southern Greek tribes (Paiones previously thought to had been barbarians are nowadays well considered to had been greek tribes and even thraecian tribes like the Dardanes are suspected nowadays to had been purely Greek even if Macedonians - following also themselves this bad greek paradigm - considered them as barbarians... lets not forget that for Spartans even Athenians were as pure Greeks as them!). That explains a lot why in those territories we find absolutely no linguistic trace of any kind (it can't be true that Thraecians were soooo ignorant not to leave any trace). I also do not see any connection between Thraecian Dardianians and so-called-Thraecian Dacians in Roumania for example. For such reasons I think we have to review the whole history of the Balkans and Minor Asia and stop this silly notion of Greeks that had been a nation without brothers and cousins as if they are the only nation that came down on earth from Mars or something! -
Message 13
Posted by Nik (U1777139) on Friday, 5th May 2006
correction...: "... for Spartans, even Athenians were not as pure as them...". Sad but true. In ancient texts a really large number of tribes were considered barbarians only because their dialects had by then deviated a lot. However, that is only a sign of tribal classification but not classsification of ancestry (these tribes had common ancestors with Greeks) they were not Celtic or Germanic or Mongol, thus for the scientist the Phrygians in Minor Asia or other Thraecian tribes in the southern part of the peninsula are nothing else than, at least, cousins of Greeks and have as much to do with Ukraine or the... north pole as much as Greeks have to do with planet Mars.
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Message 14
Posted by lolbeeble (U1662865) on Friday, 5th May 2006
Well, if its any consolation I was mistaken for a Greek once while out shopping in my AEK Athens top by an enthusiastic fan of the club thinking he'd found a soulmate in a foreign land. How is the supporter backed cash injection for the club going by the way?
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