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Pictish combat techniques?

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  Posted by QuiteGoodBritain (U3836816) on Sunday, 23rd April 2006

  I'm doing a bit of research into Pictish raids on the Romans at the moment (200-410AD) and I was told about a unique method of attack that the Picts apparently used. Allegedly, they used to attack the Romans in two waves. The first wave of warriors would run at the wall of Roman soldiers and deliberately impale themselves on their spears. The second wave would then run at the soldiers and, using their fallen comrades' bodies as leverage, would climb over the spears and kill the Roman on the end of it. The thing is, I can't find any information on the internet to support this theory and I'm trying to work out whether the person that told me about it was winding me up or not. Has anyone else heard about this quirky combat technique employed by the Picts, or is it all just made up nonsense? Any help you could give me is much appreciated. Cheers.

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  Posted by Slightly Norse John (U1792932) on Sunday, 23rd April 2006

  I've been away from the forums far too long...
  Of course it varies by culture and circumstance, but generally 15% casualties is the first threshold at which an army starts to look around and wonder if it isn't worth pulling foot for the far horizon. (The point, basically, at which most of the fighters in the line, blob, skirmish pack, whathaveyou have seen one of their mates get hurt.) Of course, doing so is the easiest way to actually get yourself killed, hence some of the prima facie absurd, near 100%, death tolls like Cannae.
  The idea that their enemies have no respect for their own lives is a propaganda line frequently used by more advanced people to justify jumping up and down on the less advanced. In a way, it excuses massively asymmetric casualty rates.
  The idea that any force, of any nature other than maybe a moundfull of termites, would go with a plan that involves 50% losses even in the case of victory is ridiculous. The whole point of ferocity, of apparent total willingness to die, is to appear inhuman, to shake the enemy's will, make them panic, and unless in the case of total mismatch (Zulus vs. Welsh, for instance- or French vs. Welsh for that matter, and no, I'm not Welsh) to take less casualties than otherwise. A willingness to crash headlong into the enemy line may well save your life, because it may well shake their willingness to stand and face you.
  Throwing yourself on the enemy's weapons is not a plan. It's what happens when the plan goes spectacularly wrong.
  

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  Posted by arnaldalmaric (U1756653) on Sunday, 23rd April 2006

  QuiteGoodBritain,
  
  I have never heard of this, however I'm not an expert on ancient warfare, so what follows should not be taken as gospel. I have studied a fair bit of military history however.
  
  So, as I understand Roman tactics the Pilum was intended to be a throwing weapon although by around 250 AD it was being phased out as the Roman Army was more concerned about the cavalry tactics employed by their opponents in Europe. They adopted a heavier spear which was intended to be held rather than thrown.
  
  However against an opponent on foot, in the wild frontier I can see the Pilum being still a standard weapon for a lot longer.
  
  If the Romans had and used a heavy stabbing spear against the Picts what do you do when it's encumbered by a 70 - 80 Kg weight on the end of it? Drop it. Draw your sword. (It wasn't the gladius by this point and I've forgotten the term, however it was a longer more "broadsword" type weapon). At this point your spear has done its job. You'll have been trained to respond to this.
  
  Now, let's look at it from the Pictish point of view. Your job is to run up to the enemy and impale yourself on a Roman spear so your mate can kill the Roman who has impaled you. Now, I have the feeling that this isn't a good job description, very few opportunities for advancement in my chosen career. I can find several good reasons why it should be me who runs up after my mate has been impaled on the spear.
  
  Okay, the ancients may not have been as "sophisticated" as we are, however they weren't stupid. It would have taken some staggering degree of motivation for them to have done this.
  
  My opinion, made up nonsense. It may have occurred that a Pictish force broke through Roman defences during a charge during which several Pictish warriors lost their life through being hit by spears, yet not a deliberate tactic.
  
  Cheers AA.

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  Posted by an ex-nordmann - it has ceased to exist (U3472955) on Monday, 24th April 2006

  The tactic presupposes that a Roman cannot remove his spear from the eejit who impales himself on it while it was still in the Roman's possession. It also presupposes that the Romans would be stupid enough to try and use their pila in a situation where they were being charged by the enemy ("here, why don't you have some of our weapons to chuck back at us?"). Should the theory be true, then a severe rethink is in order with regard to how the Romans established an empire stretching over three continents - it was obviously not through their military prowess.
  
  (Or maybe it was just that the thick soldiers were sent to Scotland?)

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  Posted by bobandkate (U3816271) on Monday, 24th April 2006

  I would say this is myth, have certainly never heard of evidence to back this up, and I have done quite a bit of work on Roman Britain, although am not a military expert.
  Kate.
  

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  Posted by DocMike15 (U3167117) on Monday, 24th April 2006

  I agree with everbody else - this sounds daft. Its also a bit strange to have any kind of detailed info about the Picts at all (researching them is very frustrating). Google scholar doesn't come up with anything either. I'm wondering if it isn't a mangling of how Roman fort defences were supposed to work. The stakes were part of the defences of marching camps (and poss. permanent sites - I'm not an expert on fort). They are there to stop or slow down an enemy, particularly on horseback - and native sites seem to have had similar defences. On the other hand, expecting someone to actually impale them selves on them as part of a plan seems unlikely. Pictish tactics would much more likely to be hit and run, or attacking an undefended site. Roman spears are dsigned to hit, but not be reused by the enemy, so the idea of a decoy to let the Romans use up spears is possible but unlikely.

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  Posted by QuiteGoodBritain (U3836816) on Monday, 24th April 2006

  Thanks for all of your input folks. As I suspected, what I was told veers sharply towards the "made up nonsense" side of things. If nothing else - how would the Picts decide who was in which wave of attacks? The people chosen for the first wave would clearly have the rough end of the bargain. Maybe it was decided with the most high-stakes game of rock, paper, scissors in history. Except scissors hadn't been invented then and the Picts didn't use paper, so it was more likely to be a game of rock, rock, rock - altogether less decisive. Anyway, thanks again - I shall no doubt be returning to this forum with some other completely outrageous claim to either confirm or dispel. Until then - cheers.

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  Posted by Ready, Aye Ready (U3842817) on Monday, 24th April 2006

  If the Romans had and used a heavy stabbing spear against the Picts what do you do when it's encumbered by a 70 - 80 Kg weight on the end of it? Drop it. Draw your sword. (It wasn't the gladius by this point and I've forgotten the term, however it was a longer more "broadsword" type weapon). At this point your spear has done its job. You'll have been trained to respond to this.
  
  I do believe that the Roman issue longsword was known as the "Spatha"
  
  As for Pictish battle tactics, like most details of these people, they would appear to have been lost to the mists of time.
  
  I suppose we could look to Tacitus and his account of the Caledonian tactics at Mons Graupius for some comparison.

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