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Scythians-Indian and European?

• Message 1.Β 

  Posted by studentvinnie (U3748045) on Tuesday, 11th April 2006

  I am a second generation Indian immigrant to the U.K. My origins are from a village in Haryana ( near Delhi ) and our caste is jat.
  The jat caste is also found in Sikhs ( although I think caste is supposed to be theologically rejected ).
  The wikipedia entry for jats talks about an " Indo- Scythian " origin of the jats. I was interested to read about the possible role of Scythians in Europe and the formation of the Celts.
  There are some websites with information about Scythians and the most memorable information within them was about the use of marijuana.
  I appreciate that speculation about the past is fraught with difficulties.I am also coming to understand that "culture" can change within a few generations.
  There is no particular angle I am coming from with regard to the linkage if any of jats to Scythians.With regard to my children there shall be no compulsion as I was put under to marry in caste.
  I was hoping someone could shed some light on the roles of the Scythians in India ( if any ) and their relationship to the Scythians in Europe.
  I remember reading a history of India by Nehru ( first PM of India) and he also mentioned the scythians ( i think ).Thanks.

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  Posted by RainbowFfolly (U3345048) on Wednesday, 12th April 2006

  Hi StudentVinnie,
  
  Can't help too much but Scythia as a "country" was a big area whose borders varied. From the size and location of it, it makes sense that a branch could have been drawn south into the Indian sub-continent.
  
  The Scythians are one of the contenders for the title of the first to tame the horse and use it in battle, and I've heard that they may have been the source of the centaurs in Greek mythology. Before horses were widely domesticated, Scythians attacking on horseback must have been absolutely terrifying and would have appeared as a half-man / half-horse beast. Could be complete nonsense tho'...
  
  RF

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  Posted by priscilla (U1793779) on Thursday, 13th April 2006

  From my own research Scythians have been credited at living north and east of the Black Sea at various times since Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔr. Interesting people who treasured their horses and whose women had for the most part, equal rights. Exact Tribal bounds both east and west of Afghanistan have long been fluid in time.
  Point of interest - the subcontinetal word 'syce' - means a man who tends horses. Regards P.

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  Posted by Nik (U1777139) on Thursday, 13th April 2006

  interesting, "syce" is in what language (s)?
  
  Skythians were a number of tribes living in modern Ukraine mainly on the east and towards Caucasus but then the fact that they were mainly horse riders made them quite mobile from Danube until well into Iran. We know that they raided systematically into Persia, then Persians were also using them as mercenaries for their famous rider-archers and it was them that taught Persians that style of war. There are interesting artistic depictions in Greek vases of the north Sea where there are shown Greek cavarly men chasing Scythians with their spears while the latter turn behind aiming them with their bows, a detail that suggests that they might have been using stirrups long before Mongols made it widespread in Europe (interestingly in one depiction the greek soldier wears... trousers (though not scythian tights) which shows that up in the cold comfort was the priority rather than fashion).
  
  I would have guessed that Scythians being mobile had progressed up to Afganistan but was not aware of them enterrring well into Indian grounds. I know that during the muslim conquests Persian zoroastrians found refuge to Indian hindu kingdoms and these exist even today called 'parsi' (i.e. Persians). I was wondering if these Persians are in anyway mixed with Scythians (since for Indians it would make little difference).
  
  In anyway the name Scythians was long used for a great variety of tribes that existed around Caucasus: what about Sarmatians and Alans, were they related to Scythians or not? Even well into the middle ages, Eastern Romans (byzantines) described the slavic tribes as Scythians for many centuries until the prevalence of the name 'slavs'. Were Scythians any short of 'proto-slavs'? There is a slight connection between Slavic languages and Perso-iranian (very slight of course!), could Scythians be in between? This is something not impossible though Slavs lived somehow northern.
  
  I would like to learn more about Scythians reaching India, it sounds interesting.

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  Posted by lolbeeble (U1662865) on Thursday, 13th April 2006

  Well, you could start by looking at some of the details on the Gundestrup Cauldron found in Denamrk. Particularly the poses used by some of the mystic figures that seem to echoe aspects of Vedic literature.

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  Posted by Nik (U1777139) on Friday, 14th April 2006

  You imply that Scythians had made that link? (possible since they were quite mobile).

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  Posted by lolbeeble (U1662865) on Friday, 14th April 2006

  Well, horse based pastoralists were mobile and as you have commented Scythian has been used as a handy catchall for mobile groups on the Eurasian steppes on the Northern shore of the Black Sea. I think there may have been a connection by overlapping ranges of groups of horse breeders that mean areas like the carpathian and the Talkla Makan seem to attract every story known to man. Then there is all the business about Indo European speakers spreading because of horse based pastoralism that allowed us to indulge in ideas of a masterrace setting up aristocracies to civilise the Indians. This was strengthened by attempts to show parrallels between the Persian Avestas, home to the Noble Aryans and the Indian Vedas, although this was to the detriment of the Vedic tradition that had been flourishing before the horse was introduced to the Indian subcontinent. There are accusations that this reliance on a wave of horse based pastoralists is just a rationalisation of the old stories of an Eastern origin for the white race and as such feel that Anatolia and agriculture were the main drivers behind the spread of Indo European speakers. If that is the case it took them some time to establish themselves in the Aegean.

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