Ancient and ArchaeologyÌý permalink
Why was ceaser murder
This discussion has been closed.
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Message 1.Ìý
Posted by faran1 (U2570961) on Monday, 10th April 2006
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Message 2
Posted by faran1 (U2570961) on Monday, 10th April 2006
I'm sorry that I forgot to write open words.
So why did the roman empror ceaser died the reasons? -
Message 3
Posted by snazzyangel (U3243081) on Monday, 10th April 2006
Could you elaborate? Which ceaser are talking about there were several ceasars.
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Message 4
Posted by RainbowFfolly (U3345048) on Tuesday, 11th April 2006
Could you elaborate? Which ceaser are talking about there were several ceasars.Ìý
Maybe he means Caesar Cardini (1896–1956) - but why anyone would want to murder the inventor of the caesar salad is beyond me. Anchovies perhaps?
Or possibly the ex-Arsenal FC player Gus Caesar. His full name is Augustus Cassius "Gus" Caesar (why couldn't my Mum give me a name like that?). His miskicked clearance in the 1988 League Cup final allowed Luton to pull a goal back and win the game with a late winner. I'm almost 100% certain that Gus is still alive, but if I'm wrong and his poor clearance was the motivation for his murder then I'd advise you to look in the Highbury area of North London for suspects...
RF -
Message 5
Posted by faran1 (U2570961) on Tuesday, 11th April 2006
Well I'm sorry.
Joulius caeser -
Message 6
Posted by RainbowFfolly (U3345048) on Tuesday, 11th April 2006
Well I'm sorry.
Joulius caeserÌý
No need to apologise - I would have never found the full name of Gus Caesar otherwise.
Rome had been a republic with no kings for quite some time, and after a civil war, Julius Caesar was proclaimed dictator for life (dictator was usually a job for the short-term). People got concerned that he would make himself a king, and to restore the republic he was assassinated.
That's how I see it (in as few words as possible) but I could be wrong!
RF -
Message 7
Posted by Euergetes (U2891066) on Wednesday, 12th April 2006
G'day RF..
In a nutshell you're correct but there are other reasons..
When the last Roman king, Tarquinius Superbus was killed (by an ancestor of Brutus no less), the Romans created a duel form of government comprising of the Senate and the Tribunacy. SPQR (on the Legionary eagles) stands from Senatus Populesque Romani - Senate & People of Rome.
The Tribunate was an elected office of the Plebs (commoners) and had the right of veto over any laws passed by the senate.
The Senate was originally comprised of the old noble families - patricians but over time plebean families were admitted but the distiction between old and new blood always remained. Admission was for life when an individual attained the consulship. There were two consuls in any given year.
As the Roman state expanded and new territories needed to be governed, the Romans simply improvised the government. A Roman official wielded 'imperium'(power/authority) with consular being greater than proconsular and so on. The senate didn't give officials territory to govern, they gave them the imperium to do that and they could individuals as much or as little as required. Foe example Pliny was sent to Bithynia et Pontus not as a governor but as a special agent of the Emperor.
Now in addition to the consular imperium, there was the title of Dictator whose imperium superceded everyone's. IIR, dictatorial imperium was a feature of the late republic. One wasn't appinted during any of the Punic Wars for example.
Julius Caesar, was elected repeated to the position of Consul - 7 years running I believe. This upset the Senate because essentially 7 other people could not become Consul and couldn't enter the senate. He was also the Pontifex Maximus (High Priest) and he repeated held the Tribunacy - technically illegal so he relinquished it to a supported when the senate voted him life-long power of veto. So he held too much power. Caesar's problem was that once he had this power, he couldn't relinquish it because as a private citizan he could be held accountable for everything that he had done. So he was killed.
Another factor is of course Cleopatra and her son Caesarion. The Romans despised eastern monarchy and JC was seen to be under Cleo's spell. Society was also scandalised by his treatment of Calpurnia - Roman Matron vs Greek Harlot.
The real key to understanding JC's assassination is understanding the events of the Roman republic from really the Gracchi onwards and how Roman society, particulary elite society changes.
Hope I haven't bored ppl -
Message 8
Posted by RainbowFfolly (U3345048) on Wednesday, 12th April 2006
I always wondered what SPQR stood for. My intuition led me to believe it may have had something to do with dyslexic Queens Park Rangers football fans travelling abroad but I've thankfully discovered that this wasn't the case.
I'm just about to start on Plutarch's biography of Brutus, and can't wait. It seems so beautifully ironic that an ancestor of his killed the last of the Roman kings.
Now in addition to the consular imperium, there was the title of Dictator whose imperium superceded everyone's. IIR, dictatorial imperium was a feature of the late republic. One wasn't appinted during any of the Punic Wars for example.
Ìý
I'm a bit confused when you say no dictators during the Punic Wars - I always thought Fabius Maximus was appointed dictator about the time of the defeat at Lake Trasimene. There again, I get the bulk of my knowledge of Roman history from Livy, and some people (bloody heretics) claim that he's not as accurate as I think he is...
Cheers,
RF
p.s. Roman Matron vs Greek Harlot? Now that's potentially one hell of a catfight... -
Message 9
Posted by Richie (U1238064) on Wednesday, 12th April 2006
Hi Eurgetes
I always thought that it was Gaius Marius who held the Consularship 7 times most of them voted in absentia?
I can only recall Caesar being Consul once (with Bibulus IIR)
Caesar's enemies were already legion before he gained the Dictatorship, with his crossing of the Rubicon because the Senate would not proogue his Imperium in the Three Gauls. His enemy's were determined to basically strip him of his Roman citizenship and lands/money in the treason courts.
Once he successfuly gained control of Rome and was voted the Dictatorship by a tamed Senate many of his enemies feared him becoming another Sulla. Ironically, Caesar was afraid of such comparisons and failed to eliminate people such as Cicero where Sulla would not have balked.
Caesarion was less an issue for Caesar's political enemies. Most of them understood and accepted that he would become a King of Egypt but that he would not matter an iota in Rome as the child was not a Roman and therefore could not even cross the pomerium into the city (due to his royal status).
Caesarion was a threat to Caesar's heir Octavian not to Cicero and Cato.
Also according to the Roman Law, Caesar could not be touched for anything he did as Dictator as they were immune from prosecution for anything done whilst Dictator, although that would not have saved Caesar from the threat of action which helped pricipitate his invasion in the first place -
Message 10
Posted by Euergetes (U2891066) on Thursday, 13th April 2006
My apologies gentlemen, I was slightly erronious in some of my facts... it's what happens when all you books are 25,000km away and you have to rely on the old grey matter. I shall hang my head in shame..
Fabius Maximus was indeed dictator twice during the 2nd punic war.
Caesar was consul in 59BC with Bibulus. The truimvirate last from 59BC until 53BC, then he holds the procunsulship of Gaul until 48BC. After that he holds the consulship with Publius Vatia in 48bc, Lepidus in 46BC, 45BC as sole consul and then with Marcus Antonius again in 45BC making a grand total of 5.
Marius indeed held the consulship 7 times with Sulla twice -
Message 11
Posted by Idamante (U1894562) on Thursday, 13th April 2006
for what it's worth - there was a programme about this on channel 5 a while back. They suggested that Caesar deliberately put himself into a position where he was bound to be killed (eg by allowing likely assassins to live and dismissing his bodyguard on the day of the attack)
Why? Because if he had just died of natural causes he would have had no successor - whereas if he was murdered then his adopted son Octavian would feel duty bound to avenge him and seize power (with public support due to outrage over Caesar's death). Thus the family succession would be achieved by force.
Also his epilepsy was getting worse and a heroic death would be better than ending up completely ga ga -
Message 12
Posted by an ex-nordmann - it has ceased to exist (U3472955) on Sunday, 16th April 2006
It is ironic, is it not, given the widely accepted motive behind Julius Caesar's assassination (channel 5 excepted) that so many people today 'assume' that he was an emperor all along?
With regard to new 'theories' behind his murder it is perhaps salient to point out that the reasoning behind his assassination was well documented by contemporary writers, and not least by the assassins themselves who went on the public record of their day with their justification for their deed. That Caesar, who was heading very much into politically uncharted territory, would have respected the notion of succession ethics is a moot point also, but I rather think that he was indeed not a little 'surprised' when his mates turned against him. -
Message 13
Posted by Eliza6Beth (U2637732) on Thursday, 20th April 2006
I seem to remember he'd taken to strutting around in red high heeled boots.
Now, this might have been a symbol of kingship left over from Etruscan times, but if not, then I think any ruler who takes to cross-dressing is a damn bit dodgy and I can understand why he got terminated with extreme prejudice....
Eliza. -
Message 14
Posted by RainbowFfolly (U3345048) on Monday, 24th April 2006
I seem to remember he'd taken to strutting around in red high heeled boots.
Now, this might have been a symbol of kingship left over from Etruscan times, but if not, then I think any ruler who takes to cross-dressing is a damn bit dodgy and I can understand why he got terminated with extreme prejudice....
Eliza.Ìý
Hi Eliza,
That's so good - the idea of Julius walking around looking like an extra from The Rocky Horror Picture Show!
hmmm... but maybe he just wore them to distract attention from his ever-increasing bald spot?
RF -
Message 15
Posted by Eliza6Beth (U2637732) on Monday, 24th April 2006
Or because he was vertically challenged? But yes, I always found that reference to the high heeled red boots rather humorous!
E -
Message 16
Posted by RainbowFfolly (U3345048) on Monday, 24th April 2006
Or because he was vertically challenged? But yes, I always found that reference to the high heeled red boots rather humorous!
EÌý
Oh please don't tell me he was short as well!!! He always looks so tall in the pictures I've seen of his bust. -
Message 17
Posted by Richie (U1238064) on Monday, 24th April 2006
I seem to remember he'd taken to strutting around in red high heeled boots.
Now, this might have been a symbol of kingship left over from Etruscan times, but if not, then I think any ruler who takes to cross-dressing is a damn bit dodgy and I can understand why he got terminated with extreme prejudice....
Eliza.Ìý
for some reason I have a memory of a readon why he wore the boots and it was something medical, but for the life of me I can't remember more than that. Course it could be my head playing tricks with me -
Message 18
Posted by marduk-slayer of tiamat (U2258525) on Monday, 24th April 2006
ceasar was killed because he became too powerful..
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Message 19
Posted by an ex-nordmann - it has ceased to exist (U3472955) on Monday, 24th April 2006
Ah but marduk, WHY was he killed because he became too powerful?
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Message 20
Posted by marduk-slayer of tiamat (U2258525) on Monday, 24th April 2006
cos they where afraid of the whole "dictator for life" bit, annoyed at him for gicing his darling strumpet cleo half of the orient and down right scared of him id assume...
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Message 21
Posted by an ex-nordmann - it has ceased to exist (U3472955) on Monday, 24th April 2006
'They' being?
(I'm just testing to see if you actually read these threads before replying) -
Message 22
Posted by marduk-slayer of tiamat (U2258525) on Monday, 24th April 2006
i read a few of them, mainly skimming. and they would be the senators who werent cow-towing to him, who decided to stab him a few dozen times in front of the statue of pompey, injuring themselves in the process...
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Message 23
Posted by an ex-nordmann - it has ceased to exist (U3472955) on Monday, 24th April 2006
So, nothing new there then. You know your Shakespeare.
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Message 24
Posted by marduk-slayer of tiamat (U2258525) on Monday, 24th April 2006
read it not long ago
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Message 25
Posted by MB (U177470) on Friday, 28th April 2006
for what it's worth - there was a programme about this on channel 5 a while back. They suggested that Caesar deliberately put himself into a position where he was bound to be killed (eg by allowing likely assassins to live and dismissing his bodyguard on the day of the attack)
Why? Because if he had just died of natural causes he would have had no successor - whereas if he was murdered then his adopted son Octavian would feel duty bound to avenge him and seize power (with public support due to outrage over Caesar's death). Thus the family succession would be achieved by force.
Also his epilepsy was getting worse and a heroic death would be better than ending up completely ga gaÌý
Perhaps Tony BLiar has followed his example. Surround himself with a bunch of incompetents so he will be deposed and his own man will get the title rather than Brown. How long before his son is old enough take over?
No, not even BLiar could not be so devious or would he?
MB -
Message 26
Posted by U3090818 (U3090818) on Saturday, 29th April 2006
Although he did operate under the military title Imperator, Caesar was not an Emperor. He did become dictator for life, they were not afraid of that happening, it already did. They were in fact worried that he would make himself king, and if the people didn't disapprove so much at the feast of Lupercalia, when Marc Antony offered Caesar the crown 3 times, he probably would have.
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Message 27
Posted by U3090818 (U3090818) on Saturday, 6th May 2006
Ah but marduk, WHY was he killed because he became too powerful?Ìý
No offence, but that's a really bad question. how can you answer 'why did someone do something because they felt like it?' or something like that. You could have said 'why or how did he become too powerful?'. -
Message 28
Posted by U3090818 (U3090818) on Saturday, 6th May 2006
Whoa, the message I quoted was on there and now it's gone...
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Message 29
Posted by U3090818 (U3090818) on Saturday, 6th May 2006
He already was dictator for life. They killed him because he was too powerful and wanted to become king. he probably would have if the public didn't dissaprove so strongly at the feast of Lupercalia when Marc Antony offered him the crown 3 times.
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Message 30
Posted by U3090818 (U3090818) on Saturday, 6th May 2006
AAAAAAAAAAAA THIS IS DRIVING ME NUTS!!!! THE MESSAGES AREN'T SHOWING UP!!!!!! Ok I'm done.
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Message 31
Posted by U3090818 (U3090818) on Saturday, 6th May 2006
No, but the messages I've posted before aren't showing up until I post again!!!
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Message 32
Posted by U3090818 (U3090818) on Saturday, 6th May 2006
Oh I get it nvm
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Message 33
Posted by U3090818 (U3090818) on Saturday, 6th May 2006
never mind***
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