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What language could be Linear A and why it has not been deciphered?

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  Posted by Nik (U1777139) on Tuesday, 7th March 2006

  I have spoken for long about Linear A, B and C (cypriot) and D (Phoenician alphabet) but unfortunately the fact that I am Greek gives teeth and nails to some here to suggest I am one of those who try to drag their nation's history as back as possible (something anyway natural to all people - though I do not do it by any means).
  
  I will not start from Linear A but from Linear B and C. Both B and C when found they were considered "undecipherable" since "none knew the language". Nice! Unfortunately for those who claimed so, a lot of tablets were found thus researchers cross checked and revealed that that was Greek (though C was also used by middle eastern speakers that settled for commerce in Cyprus and that is just another argument to my side that Phoenicians took it from there and not from ... the cuneiform of Ugarit or something!). It is also indicative that in deciphering Linear B Vendris was an architect that knew little or no ancient Greek - he was only based on the (correct) belief that Linear B was Greek and nothing else!!!
  
  Now Linear B is obviously descendant of Linear A. For me it is more logical that both belong to the same language but then that is no argument as alphabets and families of alphabets have been used by so many different languages. One could say that Myceneans spoke Greek (luckily for us Vendris and Chadwick were there to keep us safe from those 'historians') but Minoans did not. However, if Myceneans had conquered Minoans then since Minoans (and other "prehellenic" people) were an advanced civilisation most probably they would have left words in their vocabulary). Indeed there was an effort in the past decades to find such paradigms and some linguistic researchers said that nearly 40% of Greek vocabulary was not 'Indoeuropean' thus non Greek. They also said that those 40% of words had their roots (cos the majority of Greek words are rooted to certain basic words) in root-words that 'sound' very un-indoeuropean. Nice! That means they used their 'indoeuropean theory' that was never proved right other than there are indeed some similarities between certain languages (and that means nothing much without other evidence). They used a hald-theory to tear down one language into 'home' and 'guest' words which is not so scientific as within the language these words seemd to be as 'home' as the rest that is found in other indoeuropean languages. All that bearing in mind that greek language has around 95.000.000 word types (that tend to be interconnected to a great extend) making it by far the world's richest in that sector with second the Latin that has ... 8.000.000. Nice way of treating linguistics: what makes our indoeuropean sauce sour we throw it out as 'loan from indigenous people'.
  
  Now of course all the above are simply indications of the inadequacy of many researchers and that also of others who simply raise hands and say "we do not know". The reality is that in case of Linear B, the deciphering was enabled by the fact that these clay tablets found were obviously catalogues of the palaces' materials thus it made easier to imagine things that these could say. In A's case we are talking about few phrases found in a stamp and we are in no position to imagine what that could say. Thus we have to find more in order to have other hints as well as statistic numbers to start calculations. Till that time my first guess is that Minoan language would also be another form of even more ancient Greek than Mycenian - though in that case we will largely be unable to state vocal differences as in case of Egyptians since like A also is close to ideogrammatic. The the first point to start is from Greek (especially as it was known in Linear B and C). For me it would be stupid to statt to start from another point (only smart thing is to search for comparison with Egyptian ones since Minoans were working hand in hand with them and their writings seems to had been influenced by them)
  
  PD: For your information there is no major official Greek research going on not to mention any kind of 'Greek' research on the issue. These are all my personal thoughts and just another reason why I am deeply dissapointed by 'specialists'.

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  Posted by heuvel (U1763810) on Tuesday, 7th March 2006

  
  All that bearing in mind that greek language has around 95.000.000 word types ... 聽
  
  I have no knowledge relevant to Linear A (except what I read in wikipedia, etc.), but I am interested in languages and I was wondering how you define 'word types'?

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  Posted by Artorious (U1941655) on Wednesday, 8th March 2006

  Hi nik
  
  I think enough studies of Linear A have shown it cant be Greek. It must be a pre Greek Language spoken by the Minoans. The later arriving Greeks used a lot of the Linear A Symbols in Linear B which is Greek.
  
  As to what language it is or how to decipher it, thats a toughy considering the best experts in the world cant do it. My guess is that it is related to or an ancestor of early languages of the Asia minor coast such as Luwian and possibly early canaanite and possibly some Egyptian. This would be the natural direction for refugees fleeing Crete et al.
  
  

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  Posted by lolbeeble (U1662865) on Wednesday, 8th March 2006

  Hmmn, change the terms of reference and this argument would not look out of place in support of Intelligent Design. What has all this proven business got to do with the price of fish? As it stands what stops you from getting the qualifications to to actually have a leg to stand on when you criticise what you regard as a conspiratorial elite. I mean there are a lot of other things of interest out there to distract people and as such someone as obsessional as you could probably have it done in an afternoon.
  
  As for your arguments about the origin of the phonetic alphabet, why do you always forget to mention the Cannanite scripts found in the Nile Delta dated to the mid second millenium BC? It does predate the various alphabetic scripts of the Levant and the Yeman by a few centuries, or at least remains contemporary with them depending on how shaky you feel the Chronology of the period is concerned. Whatever the case alphabets appear to be in use at the same time as Linear B in the Greek world so suggesting that alphabets are a purely Greek invention is a touch of an exageration. The use of symbols to denote vowel sounds appears to have been transmitted to the non Indo European speakers on islands in the Northern Aegean and across the Adriatic in Etruria but that is the influence of Euboia during this period. Chalkis and Eretria and all that, quite what we don't really know but Thucydides seems to have thought it important centuries later. All the same it is a distraction from the question of the language used to write Linear A on Crete. Not to mention that Ventriss followed the prevailing assumption that as the words had no common ending that would equate to the -ss ending in Greek, Linear B was thus not related. It was statistical analyisis of the symbolds that allowed him to work out possible values for the sylables expressed in Linear B and only when they had been applied to a few tablets did it dawned on him that they made recognisable Greek routes. As you point out there simply is not enoiugh Linear A to provide the material to analyse the sylabary with any degree of certainty. Mind you you do seem to have some bizzarre understanding of what a language is and does. Modern Greece may have engagaged in Kathavousis but really its just an affectation and not evidence that the Greek spirit has been a constant. Well whatever the case I cannot help noticing the Mesopotamian cylinder seals in pre linear A levels at both Crete and Thebes that would suggest that it was not simply Egyptian script that infuenced the development of the Sylabary.
  
  Still if most of these Greek words are interconnected then really I'm not sure what relevance the size of a nations vocabulary has to do with anything. I'm guessing that most people don't use the entire range of words in their everyday speech and writing and for the most part such differences are the preserve of a bunch of esoteric pseuds.

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  Posted by Nik (U1777139) on Thursday, 9th March 2006

  Lolbeeble, do not get me wrong. I have a very clear idea of what a language is certainly the Greek language is not Athenian 鈥榢atharevousa鈥� of the 5th century!!! Cos I do not think you expect people ever talked like that. The 鈥榢atharevousa is another issue and it is not at all an 19th early 20th century one as some suggest but it dates in the 1st A.D. century when one too many wrong ideas circulated about greek texts (being hopelessly translated by semi-literate or purely being a propaganda) that forced some writers to become purists trying to re-establish the real meaning of words, a trend that saw many variations that ended in 1981 A.D. thus one cannot even say that this was not also a natural linguistic phenomenon as it lasted for 2000 years!! Kathareousa or demotic is one and the same language as it is Spartan, Macedonian, Dorian of South Italy or Pontian in north Turkey (black sea). What is Greek out of all that or is it still only the Athenian of 5th century? Even modern greek does not derive from Athenian pronounciations (despite the kathareuousa) - I just indicate to you that we do not say 鈥榯halatta鈥� but 鈥榯halassa鈥� and not herronissos鈥� but 鈥榟ersonissos鈥� (so much for Athenian sea power). Now if you say that all these are different languages then fair enough but then using that idea 麻豆约拍r had not written in Greek as his language (only 3 centuries difference) varies much more with 5th century Athenian or Spartan or Theban or Macedonian than all these with medieval Greek or modern Greek with St. Johns鈥� Apokalypse (sorry but I read it just nice and I am not knowledgable on ancient greek thanks to the socialistic greek state of the 1980s).
  
  Greek is also Mycenean depiste the intial na茂ve views of some (if Myceneans did not have philosophers then they should not be greeks e?). Now having an untranslated text I am in no way here to tell you this or that. I only say that to me it is more logical if Minoans used a very ancient form of Greek that has a distance from Mycenean as much distance has Mycenean from 麻豆约拍r鈥檚 archaic Greek.
  
  Yes I am well aware of Semitic writings but then these were primarily found 鈥渘ext to Egypt鈥� obviously that Semitics took these letters from Egypt and did not invent them in the Middle East were even on coast prevailed the cuneiform (Ugarit). Semitics also used the Linear C in Cyprus so does that means that they invented it? No of course not. It is also obvious that Minoans having a very close relationship with Egypt (virtually being their carriers in the Mediterranean 鈥� that is probably how they made their money) they were influenced in making their alphabet by their hieroglyphics. Given the fact that each Greek city in the 5th century had their own variations (that is how you got the Latin alphabet which practically is the Dorian) I can only imagine that the same and even more intense happened back then with many different Linear alphabets circulating in the eastern Mediterranean, strangely and for you only coincidentially falling only on coastal places (i.e. where Minoans went!!!!) and not in the semitic inland where cuneiform still prevailed. No for me it is not coincidential.
  
  Of course I am not here to support that with proof. The other side though has also not solid proof as the findings of proto-linear forms written in semitic proves absolutely nothing (imagine someone 10,000 years in the future鈥� digging in England, finding the English alphabet and suggesting English created it鈥� well something like that). I simply find the idea of Semitics developing linear to 鈥� trade a ridiculously wrong one. Of course anytime hieroglyphics are much more convenient in international trade as only one letter is enough to depict the product and the other the quantity/price rather than a long series of letters!!!! Mind you 麻豆约拍r in 8th century had his poems written 鈥� none tells a flash back story of 30.000 lines without writing 鈥� and I do not see why these texts were not written before him (despite all that oral tradition, yes it existed but it is highly overexaggerated).
  
  Then, how come the 鈥渇oreign鈥� Philistines disappear and in their cities appear the Greeks later (greeks not necessarily related to Alexander鈥檚 conquests)? The Kretan, Philistine, Greek term is a bit perplexed in the Bible and that suggests a lot. Unless we suggest that 鈥楪reek鈥� tribes hunted down the poor Minoans to their last colony around the Mediterranean which is also ridiculous (interesting that all these Minoans in Palestine that survived long after the destruction of the Minoan civilisation 鈥渓eft nothing鈥� of 鈥渢heir鈥� language and they find only Greek).
  

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  Posted by lolbeeble (U1662865) on Thursday, 9th March 2006

  Nick, what is there to stop you reading them yourself, its not like you have to rely too heavily on a translator. If you are ignorant its your own fault as much as anything. Still what strikes me is that stating that there would be genetic continuity between the populations of Crete from the third millenium BC to the present day is one thing, it does not in any way suggest that the populations of Crete spoke what would be a recognisable form of Greek nevermind their supposed sophistication. Does anybody suggest that the Cheddar gorge skeleton spoke English during their life? Perhaps more importantly what explains the change in the symbols and the construction of the language between Linear A and B in the mid second Millennium BC?
  
  As I understand it the areas round Tarsus were also described as the Cretan coast in Hebrew. Whether that is the conflation of the peoples of the sea and the depopulation of parts of Southern Anotolia and more a result of modern archeology is another matter however as I'm not sure how much attention the Hebrews were paying to the rest of the Mediterranean. It looks like you are going to suggest that the coastal populations in Tyre and Byblos and their daughter colonies were thus Greeks from Crete. Must have come as a surprise to the Carthaginians. Still as I understand it Cilicia has a much longer urban tradition than Crete in any case, well some would say Catel Huyuk was more suburban but lets not split hairs.
  
  When do you suggest the Philistines disappeared, would the practice of population redistribution by the Kings of Assyria and Babylon explain what happened to them. They don't appear much in the narrative after the Jewish exile. Greek settlement doesn't start until the end of Persian rule.
  
  I'm not going to engage in hypothetical constructions of how we will be seen in the future, they are always laughably inaccurate. As it stands the Stupid Ages as suggested by Futurama is as likely candidate as any. All the same I'm not sure what your archaeological analogy is meant to mean. It is just what you are suggesting with regard to the Greek alphabet. As it stands there does appear to be a core set of consonents in Egyptian heiroglyphs, but they never went to the extent of reducing the script to an alphabet unlike the Cannanite groups in the Sinai. Where the modern practice of abedeciary began is a moot point as itsa not clear what order the Cannanite groups organised the letters, but the West certainly derived the order we teach children the symbols from the Phoenecian alphabets. Note how it is the alphabet derived from the first two letters of the Greek and Phoenecian order. Abedeciary is just a modern version of this derived from the order of the Latin alphabet. The latin alphebet owes as much to the Etruscan adoption of Greek alphabets, what with the replacement of c for Gamma meaning the Romans had to assign g to a sepearte symbol and wound up with both c and k for hard k pronunciation in Latin, the softening of the former being a later development.
  
  In any case as I understand the issue the text of 麻豆约拍r was not finalised until the Peisistratid tyrrany in Athens. However it appears to be composed before it was written down by someone, whereas Hesiod appears to be the first Greek poet to write verses down as he thought of them instead of just using his memory to recite his poetry.

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