Ancient and ArchaeologyÌý permalink
Law of Kings
This discussion has been closed.
-
Message 1.Ìý
Posted by Dai Bath (U2444609) on Monday, 27th February 2006
I am doing some research for my own pleasure about the book "Law" by Hywel the Good of Wales who died in 945ad
I have got to reading the fordham edu files on the various books of Law in Britain at that time and I presume that most of the other european countries which got anywhere near being subject to Rome during their empire, also has similar books of Law.
I acquired the Digest of Roam Law by justinian due to the interesting similarities "Theft Rapine Damage and insult" with which it concerns itself.
However I find that The Law of Kings dates back to the earliest days of the Roman empire and there are traditions of legislation even from Tarquin the Proud.
The Law of the Twelve Tables were also approved as law in 450BC, an entirely different category of law from that of the Kings.
In Hywel the good we have Law OF a King but pertaining TO the law of custom like the Tables.
Considering the closeness of Justinian AD565 to Hywel Dda himself,D945 and the fact that even King Hywel his father had been to Rome in the 9thC, there is an obvious and rational sequence of Law all the way from the beginnings of the Roman empire up to the 12/13thC when Hywel, his laws were also formally written down on paper.
The twelve tables had to be learned by heart by schoolboys in the days of Cicero.
I am also looking at the Legacy of the Córdoban Islamic law schools on the rest of Europe, which is a part and parcel of it. Merely because it was an Islamic Law in the 9thC AD, did not mean that the principles of law developed were different from those developed in the time of Rome and Greece.
The mere fact of language AND religion had no influence whatsoever on the proper development of Law in the newly established Islamic world, on account of the vast numbers of Translators from
and to the different languages in question in Toledo, where there were large Schools of Law at that time.
So what we are really looking at is a European NETWORK of Books of Law at the time of Hywel Dda,
including those of Islamic Moorish Spain, and indeed of the Middle East.
ALL their inspiration was from these earliest
Laws of kings and the Twelve Tables dating back to
450BC. They were not substantive law but laws of procedure.
The kings of the 9thC whose Law books are known
were consequently knowledgeable about procedure which is how they were able to hand down law of other sorts.
The one things those European medieval kings had in common was PROCEDURE...... the Law of the Twelve Tables. What the local law of the kingdom was then depended entirely on the
local populace and their needs.
If anybody can suggest further reading I shall again be obliged.
Hywel Dda was a VERY highly educated man!
-
Message 2
Posted by Mick_mac (U2874010) on Monday, 27th February 2006
... They were not substantive law but laws of procedure.
The kings of the 9thC whose Law books are known
were consequently knowledgeable about procedure which is how they were able to hand down law of other sorts.
The one things those European medieval kings had in common was PROCEDURE...... Ìý
Effie_Mera,
I am not sure I fully understand what you mean here. Can you elaborate?
What is the difference between sunstantive laws and procedural laws?
Mick -
Message 3
Posted by Dai Bath (U2444609) on Monday, 27th February 2006
Thanks for replying Mac. I was not at all sure if anybody would.
If you think of Procedure as being the shape or FORM of the law and the substantive law as being the CONTENT of it.. and of what develops from it, then you have a clear idea.
The argument about "content and form" is very interesting when it is applied to modern literary criticism. I learnt it from a writer friend in the coffe bar in Hampstead in 1968! He was doing a doctorate on the subject; it has stood me in good stead ever since; I have never forgotten it!
So to add to my comments above, ALL the writers of
the Medieval books of LAW in Europe had a clear understanding of PROCEDURE; so they were able to
write down/writ their SUBSTANTIVE law without any difficulty. according to the circumstances of their kingdom!
So there is an unbroken line of Procedural LAW all the way from the beginning of the Roman Empire in the 5thCbc. I am actually amazed at that and very honoured to have the name Howell at all, on account of it! An unbroken line of procedural law Writ from the 5thC BC. Phenomenal!!!
I think that a classicist would not be so surprised, one like my kinsman late Rt Hon Enoch Powell(Ap Howell) who also studied "Law" by Hywel
Dda as wwell as the classics of 1000 years before.
Regards
-
Message 4
Posted by Bebakunin (U2999013) on Monday, 27th February 2006
Re: message 1
Hi Effie_Mera
The Law of the Twelve Tables were also approved as law in 450BC, an entirely different category of law from that of the Kings.
Ìý
I would like some more on this before adding an further comment. Any expansion on details of this would be helpful.
I remember reading somewhere that the influence of Roman Law diminished considerably from the fifth century onwards but pockets of knowledge remained. I'm sure that Roman Law judisprudence etc was maintained in French 'schools' or 'universities' and eventually became reintroduced at the time of Alfred. I'll try and dig up the reference -
Message 5
Posted by Dai Bath (U2444609) on Monday, 27th February 2006
Yes I was thinking of the loss of anything but very basic myth in the time of Alfred, but there was a
considerable body of ecclesiatic rule at the time with the Rule of Benedict. That may too be based on
the procedure of the Twelve tables....
In deed the rule of Benedict precedes Justinian by a few years, or is very jolly near to it.
It would be natural too for the law of the empire to give way to the Law of the church... so perhaps that is where the laying on (of priestly hands) was most important.... and done with due and proper
procedure!
There is an important point here too, which I have not clarified, re the church and the law. -
Message 6
Posted by Dai Bath (U2444609) on Monday, 27th February 2006
Re: message 1
Hi Effie_Mera
The Law of the Twelve Tables were also approved as law in 450BC, an entirely different category of law from that of the Kings.
Ìý
I would like some more on this before adding an further comment. Any expansion on details of this would be helpful.
I remember reading somewhere that the influence of Roman Law diminished considerably from the fifth century onwards but pockets of knowledge remained. I'm sure that Roman Law judisprudence etc was maintained in French 'schools' or 'universities' and eventually became reintroduced at the time of Alfred. I'll try and dig up the referenceÌý
The law of Kings was probably no more than declaration of ancient custom and religious practice. Their laws played little part in the development of later law.
The point I am making is that Hywel(Howell) and Ine (Innes) and other 9thC kings were concerned with the Rule of the Twelve tables of procedure
although they were kings who 1000 years before
were only concerned with custom.
I am saying that the 9thC kings were obviously deeply influenced by Justinian of the 4thC.
Remember that, in archaeological term many of the
buidings of the FIRST century Ad are still there to be looked at in Rome, and Hywel and Ine and others had been there to see them.
I was merely surprised by Joy!(but it ain't a conversion) -
Message 7
Posted by Eric_Brewster (U2829317) on Monday, 27th February 2006
Eric Brewster 44th:Effie Mera, since your so interested in laws......it seems through genealogy and historical knowledge, that while the Roman Laws and Greek Laws are so well known; there were other laws out there too.
If I were you, I would do a search for "Brehon Laws" and see what you came up with, it seems that the Irish Celts had clans of "Brehons" that were families that advised the kings and queens of the ancient celts and had their advisors as well as their scholars write down or remember the laws to a very specific degree. It was an almost entire people's history of specific clans that the historian-lawyer had to remember then on top of this the myths and legendary boundries that those clans held in the counties of Ireland.
These "advisors" also had to be royal families of their clans and warriors to be able to advise the kings of Ireland. After a time and raiding by the Irish into Briton, the "Brehon Laws" became accepted by the Briton Kings since their irish laws were much more specific than the Britons.
The Laws were for just about everything, yet most importantly concerning livestock and it's ownership, sanitation of raising that livestock, land ownership and the rights of the kings of a clan as well as the citizens of the clans to their kings and lords. Legalities such as what tribute and what portion was suitiable to give to their kings, what grains etc that would be the communities and what the citizens could have for themselves etc. All this law and rules are what the "Brehon Writers Of The Laws" had to remember. The dates for these laws in Ireland and Briton were about from 100 AD to about 1400 AD. -
Message 8
Posted by Dai Bath (U2444609) on Monday, 27th February 2006
Hm. Yes Hywel, his laws were the same as the last para you give here, almost to the clause.
The fact about the lawyer historian in Ireland is interesting because it goes to show how much effort was put in to remembering them down the centuries,
a family business.
As far as I know there is nothing similar in Welsh law history but it would not be at all surprising if the systems were the same. I wonder whether there were lawyer bards?
I have said that "Procedure" must have been the key to law. Replying to a summons was what all men had to know how to do. That is procedure. What the summons was about... was the substantive law.
Hywel was thoroughly familiar with Procedure. In fact it dominated his life because he spent a good deal of time going to England and singing charters.Those are procedural agreements. AND he also went to rome as did his father where the rule of the twelve tables was still extant.
He may have seen English "Charters" as a development of the "Edicts" of the Republic of Rome which had a profound effect on the DEVELOPMENT of Law in Rome.
Does that grab anybody as completely wrong?
A charter is a right... whereas an Edict is a statement of intention of some sort, in the case of Rome... how Law should be conducted.
The charter was a RIGHT to conduct law over a longer period of time, possibly indefinitely, once removed from the Edict!
Evidence to me of an extraordinary legal brain!
I have not written anything up yet.
Eric Brewster 44th:Effie Mera, since your so interested in laws......it seems through genealogy and historical knowledge, that while the Roman Laws and Greek Laws are so well known; there were other laws out there too.
If I were you, I would do a search for "Brehon Laws" and see what you came up with, it seems that the Irish Celts had clans of "Brehons" that were families that advised the kings and queens of the ancient celts and had their advisors as well as their scholars write down or remember the laws to a very specific degree. It was an almost entire people's history of specific clans that the historian-lawyer had to remember then on top of this the myths and legendary boundries that those clans held in the counties of Ireland.
These "advisors" also had to be royal families of their clans and warriors to be able to advise the kings of Ireland. After a time and raiding by the Irish into Briton, the "Brehon Laws" became accepted by the Briton Kings since their irish laws were much more specific than the Britons.
The Laws were for just about everything, yet most importantly concerning livestock and it's ownership, sanitation of raising that livestock, land ownership and the rights of the kings of a clan as well as the citizens of the clans to their kings and lords. Legalities such as what tribute and what portion was suitiable to give to their kings, what grains etc that would be the communities and what the citizens could have for themselves etc. All this law and rules are what the "Brehon Writers Of The Laws" had to remember. The dates for these laws in Ireland and Briton were about from 100 AD to about 1400 AD.Ìý -
Message 9
Posted by Dai Bath (U2444609) on Tuesday, 28th February 2006
Thank you for that suggestion about the Brehons
who are of course druidic lawyers.
PRIESTS and lawyers too.
The Druids are described in that article as the conservators of barbarian law;
Thus when the Rule of Benedict
came along, "sent" from Rome, it was expressly to REPLACE druidic law both in Ireland and Wales.
In the way that one culture does replace another, there may not have been that much resistance to
Roman law. The Rule of Benedict was only for the order of the monasteries and not for the general populace, as was the Druidic law, and the law of Hywel.
It looks as though Druidic law was also motivated by Procedure. I have always thought of Procedure as being the fist step in law... but it may be that it has always been obvious as such.
Procedure may have evolvd from Ceremony itself
and ALL cultures enjoyed ceremony.
So the Law of Twelve Tables was the first written
Law at the foundation of Rome... but what were the Procedural laws of the Druidic Lawyers?
The Twelve Tables were known to be inscribed on Tablets; Druidic Procedural law would have been
only written in the memory, unless I am mistaken.
The law of Hywel does have a section on "The king's officers" and the "Queen's officers, but that is not procedure. -
Message 10
Posted by Eric_Brewster (U2829317) on Wednesday, 1st March 2006
Eric Brewster: Effie Mera, I thankyou for recognizing me when I mentioned information about "The Brehon Laws", while I am not up on all the Gobbilie Gook on Proceedure Vs Implimentation, the way you told me I had just about stated what I did word for word sent a shiver up my back and in the fact that you related other revelations. Would it surprise you Effie, that the Brehons and Breheny were specialized Irish Peoples, families that developed themselves to be several things at once?
The Very Surname I have as "Brewster" is not as it was today. Oddly I can trace myself, genealogy speaking back, back......though very few on these message boards believes what I found as true; back to the times of King Arthur and his origins. All thanks to last names and how they evolved from about around 100AD to the present.
I spent 16 years to this very date, researching my name first with a local genealogy society then hard at work surfing the net. Reading everything I could get my hands on that related to "The Brehon Writers Of The Laws and Advisors to Kings". It was all there in the pathways that my family had evolved and how they were treated........they were the secret men and women that other men and women came to if they wished to be given secret help, or help to solve a serious problem. It is sad now days that my family is so little known. They created much history that we all take for granted and they themselves were little known or worse rediculed for creating such history after the fact.
My family cuts a fantastic swath of unique history that have seen kings and queens comming to their thrones indirectly thanks to my ancient family name. My family ancestors helped kings and queens create regions that solved economic and social structure problems but my family were never adiquetly compenstated themselves......not like they should have been, however what is worse, my family seems from the 16th Century, got the bad pr as being rebels against the state for the very queens and kings they advised in killing their siblings then blaming my ancestors for the deed.
My family ancestors had to be at least 3 things to become an advisor to a king of a clan, historian, storyteller, commissioned or recognized warrior, lawyer, scholars biographer, researchers. Lastly that became important in the 16th Century, publisher, editors and printers. -
Message 11
Posted by Eric_Brewster (U2829317) on Wednesday, 1st March 2006
Eric Brewster44th: You know Effie, that is strange and I have pondered that myself, how did the Druidian Brehons and Brehenys create and departmentize the theories that being advisors to the kings of clans that would allow them to help the kings to create the laws of their clans and the laws of the lands where the people lived.
I think that I may set this basic structure down how they may have done it.
1. Clan Ceremony Observances And Application
2. Druidic Implimentation of Clan Ceremony Observances and Application.
3. Bardic, Brehony, Druid Adjudication of Implimentation and Application of both the Natural Laws and Clan Laws
4. Adjudication Bardic, Brehony, Druid of Procedurial Laws, Dispute Settling Renderings, Rendering of Social Laws and Land Livestock Renderings Adjudifications.
5. The Choosing Of New Kings and Elders of the Clans by the Bard, Druid and Breheny Advisors
6. The Clan Kings and Druidic-Brehonic Declaration Of Wars Against Enemies-Proceedure-Application and Implimentation -
Message 12
Posted by Dai Bath (U2444609) on Wednesday, 1st March 2006
My Fathers would be pleased to know You.
Is the Name Brewster an English alternative for
Brehon then? Brehonster? Brewonster? Brewster?
The circumstance of descent is slightly different
in that yours is a trade name (Druid lawyer)
and mine is a family name of a lawyer. (Hywel)
Howell (in English)
I shall consider the second letter more carefully, later.
There is quite a lot of substance there. -
Message 13
Posted by Eric_Brewster (U2829317) on Wednesday, 1st March 2006
Eric Brewster 44th: Effie it is sort of, in Ireland you could have my name applying to about 25 differing surnames.....that is actually how I did some of my research and found important things out. By the 16th Century, "Bruster" became the corrupted form of "Brehon", of course my ancestors seems to have had other important families marry into theirs, The Deaveareaux, The Manns etc. "William Bruster III" became for a time, a favorite of Queen Elizabeth I, did her dirty work to preserve her crown as an advisor to her, his friends as you may have found out were Arch Bishop Of Canterbury Sandy and Robertson Davidson.
-
Message 14
Posted by Dai Bath (U2444609) on Wednesday, 1st March 2006
The interesting thing about this genealogy is that
the mother and son of a second marriage are called
Sylvanus and Phoebe.
I feel quite sure that if I looked hard enough on the samll estate where they lived I would find an
altar!
One family name is Lewis as Leviticus (book of laws)
but they had no need to go so far as Jerusalem for their prayers... but why not it was LAW!
Also the family has been educated since time immemorial, which is probably also th same with yours... always able to read and write well for a thousand years.
It is important to remember that only 5% of the population could read before 1880. That rules out an awful lot of links.... if you know your ancestors could!
I've got a scrapbook here; but it is due for tidying with all these thoughts on European
King Law books. -
Message 15
Posted by Eric_Brewster (U2829317) on Thursday, 2nd March 2006
Eric Brewster 44th: Effie, this kingship and Druidship Brehonite code was much more than it seemed, it I think what the basis for both Briton Law Adjudification as well as what the Irish Kings and clans had been doing for some 2000 years before the Britons decided to include them in the united Kingdom Of Summer under High King Arthur's leadership.
I was looking at your website and I disagree over your choice in having the author White's words displayed, I feel that the author, Stephen R. Lawhead gives a more concise idea in his 3 to 4 books of whom High King Pendragon Arthur and the Irish really were.
The ideas that High King Arthur sometimes slept with Morgana La Faye is rubbish, at those times nobody would have followed King Arthur if it had been known that this took place, realistically High King Arthur was faithful to his queen Gweniviere and Morgana La Faye had killed a number of High King Arthur's friends, worse yet, she had tried to murder Merlin Emries, Arthur's druid advisor. Morgana La Faye was also Queen Charis Of Avalon's stepsister and Morgana had murdered Charis's husband Taliesin. Also Sir Lawerence Lenny O'Donnelly MacDermaid was Gweniviere's first cousing and White's idea that he would have slept with Gweniviere would have earned him and her a swift execution if High King Arthur had of found out.
I think that this by Robin Hood's time, was the corrupted version of what might not have happened as told by ignorant Bards and Ministerals that earned their livings by telling outragious tales the better and most outragious told, the more gold they earned. -
Message 16
Posted by heuvel (U1763810) on Thursday, 2nd March 2006
By the 16th Century, "Bruster" became the corrupted form of "Brehon" Ìý
Interesting. My Oxford Dictionary of English Surnames gives two sources for Brewster, Broster, Bruster:
(1)All forms are usually from Middle English ‘brewestere’ or ‘browestere’ meaning ‘a female brewer’ (and, I presume, ultimately from Old English ‘breowan’ meaning ‘to brew’, although the Dictionary doesn’t say that)
(2)The form Broster is occasionally from Middle English ‘broudester’ meaning ‘a female embroiderer’, and ultimately from Old French ‘brouder’ meaning to ‘embroider’
Presumably Irish surnames became corrupted in the direction of vaguely similar English names. -
Message 17
Posted by Dai Bath (U2444609) on Thursday, 2nd March 2006
I have only just started on Arthur (my name is gareth by the way) and my opinions are rather uncouth. I did not realise how much Welsh influence there is from the Mabinogi in the history of Arthur.
My Islamic comparison is beginning to look like a mere doodle by comparison with the interest and stimulation of these different Law books in Europe.
Although the Islamic Law Schools in their entirety and the comparison of dates with Hywel and his "Law" has been very much worthwhile.
I should be able to write something vaguely academic before long especially with inspiration from the Brehones of Ireland as well.
What I am wondering is, whether the Brehones WERE
ruffians or whether they too had a Latin style PROCEDURE beneath their belts as well.
The Muslims in Spain did, so why should not the Irish have too.
I am trying to think whether Procedure is an elemental fact of the human spirit; how it would compare with Freud's theories for example.
In which case if it is, then there is no need to look ANYWHERE save in that spirit for its source, or whether it grew from the inspiration of Greece and Rome. -
Message 18
Posted by Dai Bath (U2444609) on Thursday, 2nd March 2006
It may be that Procedural law (with which I have been concerned in Westminster Parliament for some years) follows on from the Natural laws which you wisely describe above. How would natural justice
and procedure be linked/ related to each other?
Is procedure as abvious as natural law/justice.
It certainly requires DEEPER thought, but it may be no more than that!
"This is how things normally happen at such a time,
so this is called procedure. In that sense it is natural and in the sense that it has to be used
when natural justice is exerciced, it is also natural.
It is surprising how few people understand the value of it! -
Message 19
Posted by heuvel (U1763810) on Friday, 3rd March 2006
Is procedure as abvious as natural law/justice.
Ìý
There may be a bit of chicken and egg here.
However, it seems to me that children first fall down and hurt themselves a few times, decide they’d rather not fall down (natural law?), and then figure out ways of not falling down and hurting themselves (procedural law?).
In a business environment most inexperienced adults are inclined to be just as hands on as children, and need to suffer a few (figurative) cuts and scrapes to be convinced of the value of procedures.
In both cases there are (hopefully) experienced adults around to stop then killing themselves (children) or anyone else (adults).
So I’m inclined to say that we start off doin’ a-what comes naturally and only accept the discipline of procedure when we’ve learnt from experience that it’s the best or only way of getting what we want. -
Message 20
Posted by Dai Bath (U2444609) on Friday, 3rd March 2006
Thanks for that one Heuvel which seems accurate.
So it is a second level of learning which would have been required certainly in Rome or a big city of the day in order for everybody to do things in an
orderly way. Quite how procedural LAW would fit in to a rural community, I am not so sure.
If you are summoned... then you must go! That is procedure... that is what has to be done when you are summoned by, say, the King... or the head Brehon!
Is procedure as abvious as natural law/justice.
Ìý
There may be a bit of chicken and egg here.
However, it seems to me that children first fall down and hurt themselves a few times, decide they’d rather not fall down (natural law?), and then figure out ways of not falling down and hurting themselves (procedural law?).
In a business environment most inexperienced adults are inclined to be just as hands on as children, and need to suffer a few (figurative) cuts and scrapes to be convinced of the value of procedures.
In both cases there are (hopefully) experienced adults around to stop then killing themselves (children) or anyone else (adults).
So I’m inclined to say that we start off doin’ a-what comes naturally and only accept the discipline of procedure when we’ve learnt from experience that it’s the best or only way of getting what we want.
Ìý -
Message 21
Posted by Dai Bath (U2444609) on Sunday, 5th March 2006
One of the three parts of the Senchus Mor is concerned with Procedure,
which as I say, again comes from a tradition of Roman Law going right back to the early days of Rome and the Twelve rules.
The book was said to have been commissioned by St.Patrick
and we know that some Kings later Became bishops of the church as well
or the other way round so the spread of religion by the saints was ALSO a spread of Law. The text itself is based on the very oldest HEATHEN materials.
In Wales this may not have been so obvious. St Dewi was not known to have been concerned with Law and some 300 years later Hywel is known not to have been concerned with Religion or being a bishop; there IS a
bishop of St.David's by the name of Hywel and belonging to the Hywel
clan of Carmarthenshire (obviously enough), but concerned with religion and not law.
Quite how to link this up with the Synod of Whitland I do not know. -
Message 22
Posted by Eric_Brewster (U2829317) on Sunday, 5th March 2006
Eric Brewster 44th: Effie, while some of the later Kings of Britain and Ireland became archbishops of the church, the opposite was true.
A good portion of priests that were druids became very powerful archbishops, they had other generations of children from the 200s AD to about 700 AD that became arch bishops, the divisions between Rule of Church and State was divided as the High Kings had differing views on the church and the "rule of the holy men in the state".
Effie I may point out that the names of Brehons did not refer to the brewing of beer, it more or less was a clan name meaning clan of the Bears's.
In my family's crest we have an leopard's head side beside an bear's head. Later clanmens of the Behons got mixed up with the Bishops and became advisors to them at about the 11th Century to the 16th centuries. The names in Ireland were quite a host, Brewsters, O'Breddan, Brusters, Brehons, Brehans, Brehens, Brehanns, Brehanans, O'Breheny, McBreheny, McBrennans, O'Brennan, most of these names were interchangiable when certain peoples married certain other peoples. In Pictland and later Briton (Scotland)such advisor clan names became known in quite a few circles. The Brehons were mixed in as sept clans with the Fergusons, Fergus's, MacGillicuddys, MacGillvaries etc, Naughtons and Mac Naughtons, Mac Naughtens MacGilmores etc, our names also would vary as Manns and other families married into our clans.
In Gaul-France, we became known as Briweres, Brennians and an odd city called "The House Of The Brennians".
About this Board
The History message boards are now closed. They remain visible as a matter of record but the opportunity to add new comments or open new threads is no longer available. Thank you all for your valued contributions over many years.
or Ìýto take part in a discussion.
The message board is currently closed for posting.
The message board is closed for posting.
This messageboard is .
Find out more about this board's
Search this Board
Â鶹ԼÅÄ iD
Â鶹ԼÅÄ navigation
Â鶹ԼÅÄ links
Â鶹ԼÅÄ Â© 2014 The Â鶹ԼÅÄ is not responsible for the content of external sites. Read more.
This page is best viewed in an up-to-date web browser with style sheets (CSS) enabled. While you will be able to view the content of this page in your current browser, you will not be able to get the full visual experience. Please consider upgrading your browser software or enabling style sheets (CSS) if you are able to do so.