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Were the Celts ethnically Celtic!
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Message 1.听
Posted by Mick_mac (U2874010) on Sunday, 19th February 2006
Would anyone like to debate the merits or otherwise of 鈥楾he Celts鈥 programme shown on Channel 4 this weekend?
I watched this much hyped programme which had been promoted using the tag-line 鈥榯he Irish aren鈥檛 Celtic鈥. On it Richard Rudgely invited his audience to accompany him on an academic journey of discovery, an understandable format that lends itself to a TV presentation of this nature but has some unfortunate results.
Nothing in the programme would be really new to anyone who knows anything about the Celts and the history of Ireland. It may have educated a British audience about the Celts and Celticness but the information it contained would be largely known by people in Ireland.
Rudgely kept referring to what he had discovered. For example, he said that (and I鈥檓 quoting him): 鈥業 discovered that the Celts were from central Europe and not from Ireland鈥. It seemed like he was saying that HE discovered this fact but this is common knowledge and has been for over one hundred years! There were numerous instances of this use of language.
He also made great play out of a bog body (Lindow Man?) who was apparently ritually killed/murdered/sacrificed/executed. Bog bodies are common right across northern Europe and seem to have been a feature of many cultures.
The fact is that today no self-respecting historian or archaeologist would claim any kind of ethnic purity based on the term 鈥楥eltic鈥 and, although this was done in the past by 鈥楥eltic鈥 writers, it was a claim made by non-Celtic writers also, both sides having a political agenda. Even the Halstatt and La Tene Celts of central Europe were not an ethnic group and cannot be referred to as Celts in an ETHNIC sense. It is a linguistic and cultural term only, and that is how it should be used.
Not surprisingly, all that DNA studies show is that Ireland and western Britain have greater affinities with Atlantic European populations than with central European ones. The Atlantic coastline of Europe has always been a highway for population movement, for trade and for cultural dissemination. This goes back at least as far as megalithic times and the mediterranean trade in tin and copper. Similarly one could argue that south-eastern Britain ought to show a DNA affinity with continental Europe, which indeed it does.
The single most important fact that emerges from DNA investigations of the kind conducted by Dr Daniel Bradley of Trinity College Dublin is that the DNA composition of the people of the British Isles has changed very little from time immemorial and it is not possible to identify a 鈥楥eltic鈥 gene, or any other 鈥榚thnic鈥 gene for that matter.
In so far as the word 鈥楥eltic鈥 refers to language and culture the Irish remain Celtic as do the Scots, Welsh, Manx, Cornish and Bretons. In fact, most of Rudgely鈥檚 programme only reinforced and emphasized this point. Everything he portrayed as quintessentially Celtic is attested or evidenced in Ireland.
And what about the 'Celts' themselves? Were the Celts of Europe culturally or ethnically, or both? -
Message 2
Posted by Artorious (U1941655) on Sunday, 19th February 2006
Hi Mic Mac
I have yet to watch the recording of that TV show. But I agree wit you. It is not ethnicity that distinguishes Celticness but language. We know the Irish Celts orignated mostly from Iberia pushing out the eastern Celts. This DNA evidence for the Iberian/Irish Celts shows that the Celts\Gauls had spent some time in Central Iberia controlling the Iberian population and assimilating into them by the time of the Irish invasions circa 500-400BC..The Iberians had assimilated Celtic culture and vice versa.
The eastern Celts, being from Central/northern Europe didnt have this DNA change as they didnt mix enough with other ethnic groups to effect a major change to their DNA. There were influences no doubt, from Cimmerians, Scythians, Balkans, Greeks and Thracians but not enough to significantly change their DNA pattern. I think only someting like 20%? of modern Euros are from those other regions. -
Message 3
Posted by PaulRyckier (U1753522) on Sunday, 19th February 2006
Re: Message 1.
Mick mac,
I wanted to sent this message to Artorious, but now that you started again...
I am reading the book again that I recommended to Heuvel in Message 71 in "Theory on results of British DNA testing" by Erik Lindsay. It is written by an historian, two archaeologists and one linguist. Perhaps it is therefore that they don't mention DNA testing for their talks about the the migration of the "Beaker" cultures. And there seems still to be a lot of controversy about how it happened. One about the domestication of the horse by groups above the Black Sea, one about the beakers used as a status symbol and no migrations but exchange by "peer-polity interaction". I sought for what it meant: The full range of exchanges taking place-including imitation, emulation, competition, warfare and the exchange of material goods and information-between autonomous (self-governing) sociopolitical units, generally within the same geographic region. But again this was recently put in question. And there would have been again exchange by real migration. Perhaps the truth is in the middle (smile)...
During the Bronze age you had development of "techno-complexes" in Europe (see for the term in wikipedia under "archaeological culture") then we have the Iron age with the Halstatt-Culture. Then around 450 BC the spread of what is now fully called Celts from the La T猫ne Culture.
Perhaps the authors don't mention DNA because there is still to much controversy about what it proves?
Have to stop for the deadline of the 麻豆约拍.
Kind regards. -
Message 4
Posted by Mr Pedant (U2464726) on Monday, 20th February 2006
Seems to be a common and annoying practice on the Telly that programme makers discover things that are already common knowledge.
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Message 5
Posted by Nik (U1777139) on Monday, 20th February 2006
I am along Mac's views, and personally have to note done that by the term Celtic we mean a rather large group of ethnicities and tribes that habitated west Europe and the Atlantic shores. As Mac correctly says it was only natural that populations from Northern Spain to West France up to British islands and Ireland would move around, trade and immigrate by sea at least since neolithic times - there is nothing strange into that
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Message 6
Posted by heuvel (U1763810) on Monday, 20th February 2006
Hello everyone,
I couldn鈥檛 watch the programme and forgot to record it, but I鈥檓 not too worried, especially after hearing that the the familiar 鈥淚 have discovered .....鈥 styIe was used. I expect to learn vastly more from the discussion here than I would have from the programme.
I鈥檓 not well-read on this subject, but it would indeed seem improbable that the idea of a Euro-Celtic ethnic group has much mileage in it. I鈥檝e heard it said that, if you want to go down this road, then the Germans are as Celtic as anyone, since they were expanding against the Celts for a 1000 years and no-one is suggesting that they killed or expelled them all from what is now Germany.
Although I can鈥檛 contribute much more to this debate I do have a couple of questions:
(1) The movement of Atlantic/Iberian Celts to Ireland 鈥 what are the opinions on how this happened. A stream of individual boats spread out over hundreds of years, or something more akin to an invasion with hundreds of boats? (Artorious refers to the Irish invasions circa 500-400 BC in message 3)
(2) According to my TV-guide Richard Rudgley reckons that, 鈥淭he Celtic tradition is a crucial part of what it means to be a true Brit鈥. Did he really say that, and if so what does it mean? How can I tell if I am a true Brit?
Heuvel -
Message 7
Posted by thegoodbadugly (U2942713) on Monday, 20th February 2006
i fel that you are missing a lot of information to make these claime as the nordic peoples had a big influence on the dna of irish people,
i think that people would find programes about englisg people and where they came from would be a lot more help to you,as all programes on this matter always leave out the face that the english were canabils who eat each other on a regular basis,i feel that the english do not liked being reminded about it. -
Message 8
Posted by lolbeeble (U1662865) on Monday, 20th February 2006
Dunno Heuvel, sounds alarmingly like some comments made by Nick Griffin to be honest with you. I rather like Rudgeley's books but then he does tend to mention the sources. The alchemy of Culture is a good study if you can find it while his Secrets of the Stone age and Lost Civilisations of the Stone Age and Dark Age are interesting primers for the current state of understanding within these respective time periods as well as having accompanying TV series.
As such why does everyone take the Miletians as being a genuine echo of a historical event. To be honest it seems more like a succession myth. -
Message 9
Posted by lolbeeble (U1662865) on Monday, 20th February 2006
Tut Tut, you wanna shoot, shoot, don't talk. The Scandinavian migrations would have had more impact on coastal areas but would not be so marked inland wouldn't you think? At least that would be the implication from the samples taken in the Blood of the Vikings survey. Anyway so far as the East midlands are concerned we are all convinced we are descendents of Danes. Gainsbourough sheltered a Scandinvian army in 1068 that sought to reestablish their control of the North of England. Any way given the common occurence of cremation burials throughout European prehistory perhaps the Scandinavians liked their food well done.In fact in the Mesolitic the standard diet in areas like Jutland was made up oysters and venison.
Not sure one could say that the British Isles have had too many phases where ritual canibalism was common, except as a result of starvation. At best you could argue that Neolithic mortuary exposure involved some degree of dismemberment of the corpse to open the body and accelerate the decomposition process to deflesh the body and allow for the collection and distribution of the bones between barrows, causewayed enclosures and for personal talismans for their relatives and friends. At a push you could suggest that there was some form of ritual cannibalism but the fact that they seem to have been left on raised paltforms suggests that they were not keen on eating the flesh and as such didn't want any large scavengers dragging off their loved ones mortal remains. -
Message 10
Posted by Artorious (U1941655) on Tuesday, 21st February 2006
Hi all
I think Lol has raised a good point. How much of Irish myth can we take as reflecting real history and how much are later additions by the Christian church or others with political agendas?
Can we perhaps ignore the labels and some of the origins claimed for some of these `invasions'. The Milesians example given by Lol above is one where there is doubt as to its validity. But is the actual invasion hypothesis itself correct, a real remembering of an actual event. Did the Q clets invade from Spain or was there a common ancestral DNA pattern between Spain and Ireland going back tens of thousands of years? The recent discovery of a road under peat bogs in Ireland has lended support to the validity of Irish mytology reflecting real events but more evidence is needed.
Has linguistics proven that the Q Celtic language was later? This is now the inference, since the idea that the Picts spoke a non IE language was debunked and that they spoke a P celtic language.
As to the Picts. I have my suspicions as to who they were. They appear to have been invaders as such or migrators as there does seem to be evidence in river names and some places for a non IE language having been around before their arrival.
The Picts were also known as the Pretani, from where we get the name Britain, same as welsh Pryddain. AFAIK the Pretani came up into Scotand from more southern regions.
My supposition of who they were is more based on looking at the name rather than the linguistics which is not always the best way so it's not certain. Anyway, I see Pretani as starting with the IE root for `people of' `born of' etc (pr). The Tani bit equates to Dani, Danu. So the Pretani are non other tha the Irish Tuathe(people) De(of) Danaan(Danu).
So what we might have here is an expansion of peoples, the Pretani, from Europe, into Britain, up into Scotland and from there to Ireland or also from Britain to Ireland via Cornwall or Wales. They possibly came along not long after the Fir Bolg(first proto celt Belgae tribes)and The Domnaan(Dumnoni) etc which I tentavively place around 800BC. -
Message 11
Posted by Artorious (U1941655) on Tuesday, 21st February 2006
Hi all, please read previous message first...
Just one more thought on the Pretani which I equate with the Tuathe De Danaan. When the Q Celts came to Scotland they appear to have changed this Pretani name into the Q celtic equivalent - Caledoni. Which the Romans picked up and it became the name for Scotand. -
Message 12
Posted by Bebakunin (U2999013) on Tuesday, 21st February 2006
Issues concerning ethnicity are prevalent on this thread amongst others (most notably 鈥楾heory on Results of British DNA Testing鈥 and 鈥業nvasion Mania鈥 threads). The most common denominator concerns the feasibility of exacting the form of various ethnic groups via DNA evidence. It is comforting that the language veers away from the concept of race, for this concept is largely discredited, however, I feel in some comments the legacy of race continues. In essence, I would argue against a form of biological determinism (and the often inherent superior-inferior contextualisation) that race implies.
The aim of this comment is not to dismiss out of hand any knowledge that can be discerned from DNA. It is a valuable resource, although where I would urge caution is how the interpretation is adopted. To develop this concern I would raise the issue of how ethnicity is defined. For speed and simplicity I have 鈥榩icked up鈥 this definition:
鈥淎n ethnic group is a community of people who share cultural and/or physical characteristics including one or more of the following: history, political system, religion, language, geographical origin, traditions, myths, behaviours, foods, genetic similarities and physical features.鈥
Found at:
This IMHO simultaneously highlights the complexity of researching ethnicity and also indicates that 鈥榩hysical characteristics鈥 and 鈥榞enetic similarities鈥 may OR may not be a defining characteristic of different groups. As such DNA results will always have a limited impact and must be considered with all the other elements provided in the above definition.
Whilst this does not help provide any answers, such a conceptualisation of ethnicity is essential to prevent arguments slipping towards the highlighting the erroneous significance of race (DNA) per se. -
Message 13
Posted by heuvel (U1763810) on Tuesday, 21st February 2006
.... such a conceptualisation of ethnicity is essential to prevent arguments slipping towards the highlighting the erroneous significance of race (DNA) per se.
听
I think of DNA-mapping as just a way of telling to what extent and for how long groups have lived in physical isolation from one another. Since the degree of physical isolation may not be the same as the degree of cultural isolation it is useful to have a label to distinguish the two (such as race and culture). If we are comparing Europe with India then (I hope) the racial/cultural differences between Liverpudlians and Mancunians would be considered irrelevant. If we are comparing Liverpool with Manchester then it might be interesting to know whether the figures usual stated from census and other records for the Irish contribution to both cities (60% and 20%) can be detected on a racial or cultural scale.
Unfortunately the terms race and culture are both often qualified as superior or inferior without saying how superior & inferior are measured. The average Masai is likely to be better at doing certain things than the average pygmy, and vice versa, depending on the environment they are in. I assume that they are both well-adapted to their respective environments and that I would not last a day in either of them. I am afraid that whatever term we use it will be ultimately be hijacked or rubbished by those with a political axe to grind. -
Message 14
Posted by Anglo-Norman (U1965016) on Tuesday, 21st February 2006
Mic_mac
Re: Your Message 1
Yes, I'm inclined to agree with you on all counts. Even though I don't know a great deal about the Celts, I still didn't learn much that was new - but then, these programmes, I suspect, aren't really made for those who have a serious interest in history.
The thing about the presenter saying "I have discovered..." seems pretty common these days. Perhaps it's approved TV shorthand for "I have been told by an army of researchers what they have found out about what generations of archaeologists and historians have discovered" !!
One pedantic point - when reading from Heroditus (sp?) he pronouced the Latin word Celtae (in the text he was using) as the Greek Keltoi.
One thing I did wonder - they kept emphasising that the Celts wouldn't have referred to themselves as Celts - the term is Greek - but I can find no clue as to where the Greeks got the word Keltoi. Could it be a Greek derivation of a Celtic word?
Oh, and by the way - the programme could have been half as long if they hadn't repeated everything at the start of each segment. Do Channel 4 think we have the attention span of a Goldfish with short term memory loss? Shoudl have been a series - then they could have gone into things in more detail. And how did he come face to face with his first real Celt. It was DUMMY!!! -
Message 15
Posted by lolbeeble (U1662865) on Tuesday, 21st February 2006
Keltoi, Greek for strangers I believe.
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Message 16
Posted by Artorious (U1941655) on Tuesday, 21st February 2006
Hi Lol and all
The word Keltoi is a difficult one. Some claim it means `hidden ones' or 'Hidden people'. Some claim it means `barbarians'. Some claim it derives from Cimmerian.
It looks to me like a Q celtic rendering. 'Kel' being 'people of' similar to `Cal' in Calendoni. `toi / tos' then remains. People of `To', possible variations, Po, Pa, Da, Do, ta, Ga, Go. In P celtic it would be rendered Preta \ Pretani or some such I would surmise.
So lots of possibilities. So its most likley the name of a tribe the Greeks may have come into contact with. The hidden aspect may relate to early trading when the traders may have kept their sources secret. -
Message 17
Posted by PaulRyckier (U1753522) on Tuesday, 21st February 2006
Re: Message 16.
Artorious and lol,
I found it hundred times on the internet in the same words. Perhaps it comes from the same source (smile):
The first literary reference to the Celtic people, as keltoi or hidden people is by the Greek historian Hecataeus in 517 BC.
I only found one reference: The Celts named themselves "Kelton" which means "the hidden ones". From there Gallates, Gauls, Galles and so on.
Wales from Old English for "wealh, waelisc, welisc". The Germanic form is "walh" and means foreigner, stranger. From there also Welsh, Waals, Walloon, Wallon, Wallonia.
Kind regards to both. -
Message 18
Posted by PaulRyckier (U1753522) on Tuesday, 21st February 2006
Re: Message 12 and 13.
Heuvel and Bebakunin;
thank you very much for wording what I was struggling with to describe it in good English.
It popped up already several times here on these boards and I too sought for definitions of the word "ethny" as opposed to "race" and made a whole thread about the interpretation of the concept of the word "race" in English, Dutch, French and German. And I showed them on these boards, also in debates as about "nation", "volk" and other not easy to define concepts. But you are right: "Whatever we use it will be ultimately be hijacked or rubbished by those with a political axe to grind"
I remember the French Georges Vacher de Lapouge and the British Houston Stewart Chamberlain, the son-in-law of Wagner and other protagonists of the Social Darwinism.
I read about them for several times and they came back in the book that I have just finished: "The pity of it all. A portrait of Jews in Germany 1743-1933" by Amos Elon. Fascinating book and I recommend it strongly to everyone.
Although some Jews converted to Protestantism, because of necessity to have an academic or public job, they nevertheless were still discriminated for their physiognomy. If there was one? Because many hadn't the physiognomy and were only detected by their name. Some changed their name to be as similar as possible to the Germans and to be a good German, similar to the rest of the Germans.
But after 1933 the Nazis sought in the archives. And you had half-Jews and even quarterly Jews. Of course the Nazis hadn't yet the DNA instrument to determine and had to relie on familyhistory and physiognomy. And IMO Jews are only an "ethny" formed by their religion, their culture and their longtime intermarriage, not at all a "race".
Darklight was witness to the cruelties that those other "etnies" exerced on each other in the former Yugoslavia: The Serbs, the Croatians and the (Bosniacs:whatever that word means as ethny) and they didn't differ in DNA only in language and not that much, but especially in religion and culture...
If only the DNA method is used as a scientific method to dertermine and follow the patterns of people wandering? (volksverhuizing, v枚lkerwanderung) and not in other senses then all good all well. But even the American, French, German, English social Darwinists were scientists.
I remember, perhaps for lol beeble or was it for John Hyatt that I did research for a renomated professor from Oxford? about eugenetics and social Darwinism and is wasn't until I showed the texts of him that they believed me. I am not sure if I can easely find it back in my notes.
Bebakunin and Heuvel thanks again for the messages and kind regards,
Paul. -
Message 19
Posted by Bebakunin (U2999013) on Tuesday, 21st February 2006
Hi Paul and all,
Thanks for the posting, your comments on social Darwinism brought to mind the book 鈥楴ot in Our Genes鈥 by Steven Rose et al. this first highlighted for me the dangers of social Darwinism, and I would highly recommend it. -
Message 20
Posted by Alaric the Goth (U1826823) on Wednesday, 22nd February 2006
Hi all, please read previous message first...
Just one more thought on the Pretani which I equate with the Tuathe De Danaan. When the Q Celts came to Scotland they appear to have changed this Pretani name into the Q celtic equivalent - Caledoni. Which the Romans picked up and it became the name for Scotand. 听
Why do you equate 'Pretani' with 'Tuatha de Danaan'? I have not come across that idea.
There is no way that the 'Q' Celtic version of 'Pretani' would come out as 'Caledoni'. The first reference to the 'Caledones' is I believe in Tacitus (late first century, therefore long before Irish Celts had much to do with mainland Britain in terms of settlement). Later Roman sources also refer to the 'Dicalydones' which suggest that the people that became the Northern Picts had two major divisions.
It is reckoned tht the northern Irish tribe the 'Cruithni' gives us the 'Q' Celtic version of 'Pretani' and these are thought to be Picts living in a small pocket in what became Ulster, as the writings of the later Scots/Irish go on to use the same word for the Picts in Northern Britain.
'Q' Celtic is still regarded by philologists as preserving older features of 'proto-Celtic'. 'P' Celtic includes both the languages of Gaul and Britain, so it must have emerged first on the Continent and was perhaps spread by ruling elites to the British tribes, who it is reckoned in ancient times spoke a form of 'Q' Celtic, except for the Picts in the far north, who may have spoken a non Indo-European language. -
Message 21
Posted by Anglo-Norman (U1965016) on Wednesday, 22nd February 2006
And IMO Jews are only an "ethny" formed by their religion, their culture and their longtime intermarriage, not at all a "race".
听
Paul,
An interesting comparison to draw. Only the other day I was reading about some people who regard themselves as 'culturally Jewish' but who have no Jewish religious beliefs. Some even still kept the Jewish religious festivals as a sign of their culture, rather than their beliefs. -
Message 22
Posted by Artorious (U1941655) on Wednesday, 22nd February 2006
Hi Alaric
you wrote:
"Why do you equate 'Pretani' with 'Tuatha de Danaan'? I have not come across that idea."
I like to formulate my own ideas even if they may be wrong. The way I see it is that Calendonia relates to Pretani in this way :
Cal - Q celt version of IE root, born of, people of , land of. In Etruscan Celti has same meaning , 'land of'. So this IE root in P celtic would be 'Pr' - the original IE Root word for 'people of'.
e - this I equate with same as part of De, as in Tuatha De Danaan.
Doni - This is obviously the same as Dani, Danu etc. I equate this therefore with `tani' of Pretani and Danaan.
In my view the first Q celts would have arrived in Scotland around 400BC. Cruithni as you say is 'reckoned' to equate to Pretani but it is not certain.
It is no longer believed that Picts spoke a non IE language. It is now accepted that they were invaders or migrators as they spoke a P celtic language. The references to non IE language are just in very ancient place and river names that existed before they got there. The Pretani most likely being P celtic came up out of Europe with other early proto celts. -
Message 23
Posted by Alaric the Goth (U1826823) on Wednesday, 22nd February 2006
Thanks for the reply, Artorious.
I am not sure that your reasoning is valid. 'Cal-' is also a Celtic root meaning 'sword', thus Tacitus has 'Calgacos' ('the swordsman') leading the Northern Britons (inc. Caledones) at the battle of Mons Graupius.
I think the 'd' or 't' in 'Pretani', 'Prydein', etc. belongs in the first stem/syllable of the word. Isn't the Welsh 'Ynys Prydein' = 'Island of the Mighty'? This makes me wonder if 'pryd' or 'pret' has the same root as 'pride'. -
Message 24
Posted by Artorious (U1941655) on Wednesday, 22nd February 2006
Hi Alaric,
It is possible that Cal may be a Celtic root for Sword if it is equated with Cladivos or Claideb - Celtic for Sword. It could also be evident in Excalibur. Cladivos though appears to come from Gaulish/French and maybe more related to latin, so it may have derived from the Roman Gladius and not Celtic at all.
Interestingly the word for Saxon also comes from another root word for Sword - Sahs, where it was mixed with the word for rock or stone. (sword sharpeners?)
So is the root 'CAL' definately related to Celtic Swords or are it roots in later Latin not Celtic? Looking at it another way, did the Celts lend the Latin the root word for sword which became Gladius? Some say Latin has it's roots in early Celtic.
Then a final thought, could it make more sense if the CAL root meant 'people of the sword' ?? Another interesting idea which could accomodate both meaings? -
Message 25
Posted by Artorious (U1941655) on Wednesday, 22nd February 2006
Hi Aliric, please read previous message first...
You wrote:
"I think the 'd' or 't' in 'Pretani', 'Prydein', etc. belongs in the first stem/syllable of the word. Isn't the Welsh 'Ynys Prydein' = 'Island of the Mighty'? This makes me wonder if 'pryd' or 'pret' has the same root as 'pride'"
As the word has the IE root 'Pr' at the beginning it could mean 'Island of the mighty people', or as in your sumation, possible 'Island of the Proud People.'
So this leads on to another thoughtful conjugation....What if Tuathe De Danaan has nothing to do with the the Goddess Danaan or Danu. What if this was a later Religious/Church assumption based on ignorance. What if it the Danu is the same as Tani and means 'Mighty' or 'Proud'. So are the Tuathe De Danaan, 'The mighty/proud people' or the `the mighty people of the Sword'. Very intersting...... -
Message 26
Posted by Alaric the Goth (U1826823) on Wednesday, 22nd February 2006
Artorious,
I understood 'cal-' to be indeed related to 'glad-' as in 'gladius', but in the sense of there being an IE, or at least W. European, root word. The Celtic and Italic branches of IE are closer than, say, the Italic is to the Germanic. (I always imagine that the 'Man in the Ice', that Copper Age body they have preserved in Italy (after wrangling over whether he should be in Austria!) might have spoken a dialect ancestral to both Celtic and Italic.)
Arthur's sword is more properly (in pre-Malory legend) 'Caliburn' (please lose the 'Ex' bit!).
I reckon that the Germanic 'sax' word also meaning 'stone' may well go back to a root word from the time when edged weapons/knives were indeed made of stone. There is an Old Slavonic word 'kamy' that is cognate with our 'hammer' but means 'stone', and speaks of a time when a hammer was a stone. -
Message 27
Posted by Artorious (U1941655) on Wednesday, 22nd February 2006
hi Alaric
Well, the plot thickens. We also have the Welsh word for Hard - Calad and with Calad-bolg supposedly means 'Hard Lightning' which is a way of describing a Sword from which Caliburn may have derived. Also Cal,Qel, Kela root can have the meaning break, split, hit; another reference to attack from which the sword root may have derived? Or it could mean 'attacking people' in a root sense as apposed to people of the sword?
Sanskrit is kladga.
The big problem is the Q and P celtic split and how these change would have reflected in each and wether the IE root `pr' could have changed to `cal' or 'Cl' in Q Celtic. In my view it could considering the interchangeability between L's and R's in ancient words and the P becomming C in Q celtic. -
Message 28
Posted by Artorious (U1941655) on Wednesday, 22nd February 2006
Hi Al an all. see previous message first...
The link between Tani + mighty is weak so probably will not work as its the `pret` or 'prydd' part that refers to `mighty'. So Danu cannot mean mighty or proud. So following the previous message to this we get back to my original assumption that possibly CAL is a Q celtic rendering of `Pr' and has nothing to do with swords but means 'people of' and hence Pretani is people of Tani/Danu....same as the Tuathe De Danaan. This could also mean that Keltoi also means the same or similar - ie Predoni or Pretani. And this of course could be where the Irish myths get their link with Greece from - The Danaans. -
Message 29
Posted by henvell (U1781664) on Wednesday, 22nd February 2006
Have a look at post 16 under Invasion Mania on this board.A recent article on the Basques has revealed some disturbing DNA analysis limitations.
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Message 30
Posted by Artorious (U1941655) on Wednesday, 22nd February 2006
Hi Henvel
Yes , I noticed that post. Most likely the Basques intermingled with the Celts / Celtiberians. I think the Q celt language has the odd word borrowings from Basque. -
Message 31
Posted by Artorious (U1941655) on Friday, 24th February 2006
Hi all
I suppose this questionable link I am making between P Celtic Pretani\Danaan and Q Celtic Keltoi/Caledoni meaning the same thing would lead to an obvious and rather interesting conclusion. It would provide evidence that the ancient Brits were indeed Celts!!...that would upset all these people who try to deny it....
It would also help to dispel the myth of the Pretani/Picts being some sort of barbaric sub species, promoted by the Romans and other historians.
It would also provide proof of the existence of the Irish Tuathe De Danaan who still remain in myth. They could have been a branch of the Pretani who carried on into Ireland from England, Wales or Scotland.
Ahhh, speculation is easy, proof is much harder.... -
Message 32
Posted by Artorious (U1941655) on Friday, 24th February 2006
Hi all, please read previous message first...
I will try to get some proofs....
The link between the Caledonians and the Tuathe De Danaan is very easy to prove. The Caledonians are just the name of the tribes inhabiting a forested part of Scotland known as Celidon, Celydon, Cellydon. Don is just the British version of the Irish Danu or Dana. Don is a female diety. We can also see from this name that the first part was originally Cel not Cal. The Cal variation probably originated with the Romans. This Cel obviously brings us close to the link with the meaning of Cel - Land of , similar to people of and may be a Q celtic rendering of 'Pr' and also closer of course to a link with the Keltoi. -
Message 33
Posted by Artorious (U1941655) on Friday, 24th February 2006
Hi all, please read previous messages first...
some more proofs on this theory. It looks like others are in agreement in the menaing of the first part being `people of' as in the IE root 'Pr':
"Ian Adamson has demonstrated the presence in Ulster during the Iron Age of a people known as the Cruthin or Qretani (1974). These are Gaelic or Q-Celtic interpretations of the name Pretani or Prydein which referred to the same people in the P-Celtic or Brittonic language of the neighbouring island. The names Prydein and Pretani were later romanised as Britain and Britons, which was the name by which the Romans referred to those they had conquered. Those elements of the population in the area now known as Scotland, which they did not bring under their control, they referred to as Picts. The names Cruthin, Qretani, Pretani (and hence Briton)and Pict all translate into English as 鈥楶eople of the Pictures鈥 or 鈥楶eople of the Designs鈥, according with Roman accounts of the Britons as heavily painted or tattooed (Davies 1999)."
Of course I dont agree with the meaning of the Tani part as 'designs' or 'pictures'. It appears to mean something competley diferent - Thin or shallow :
"Word: tana铆 (TAH-nee) [tani:]
Meaning: tana铆 = thin; shallow
Usage:
T谩 s铆 ag 茅ir铆 tana铆. (TAW shee uh GYAY-ree TAH-nee) [ta: s'i: @ g'e:r'i: tani:] = She is getting thin.
Is tana铆 an sc茅al 茅. (ISS TAH-nee uh SHKAY-uhl ay) [is tani: @ s'k'e:l e:] = It's a flimsy story. (lit., tis thin the story it)
uisce tana铆 (ISH-kyuh TAH-nee) [is'k'@ tani:] = shallow water
History: Old Irish "tanae", Breton "tano" and Welsh "tenau" come from Common Celtic *tanawio-, from Indo-European *ten-u- (stretched, thin), the suffixed full grade of the root *ten- (to stretch). English "tenuous", from Latin "tenuis" (thin), is a good cognate.
Scottish Gaelic: tana"
So where does this designs or painted come from?
Interestingly the eastern/Russian meaning of 'Tani' means 'fairy princess' . This leads us back to the Tuatha De Danaan, who were equated with the fairy folk. Perhaps we now know why....
If the Tani part is as I suggest equated to Danu/Danaan instead and means 'Goddess Danu' it is possible the word was confused in later times and was thought of as 'fairy goddess' or somesuch....
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