Ancient and ArchaeologyÌý permalink
Partaking of laith
This discussion has been closed.
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Message 1.Ìý
Posted by Bebakunin (U2999013) on Saturday, 4th February 2006
Whilst I've actively initiated a couple of threads AND been greatly pleased by the responses, it can be daunting entering into an environment like this for the first time. In browsing through previous threads, for example, comments such as 'we discussed this a couple of years ago' can be a bit intimidating (in the sense of not wishing to start a thread that has been 'done to death'). It is also obvious that many contributors have specific interests, expertise etc.
I notice that on other MB (e.g. history hub) they have initiated a 'bar'. Would there be any interest in such a move on this MB? A place where people could meet the 'locals' and find out about what their specific interests are, how they became interested in the topics discussed - and maybe most importantly what are the advantages of the MB system...
If anyone's interested I'll buy the first round!! -
Message 2
Posted by Goldfinches (U2947535) on Saturday, 4th February 2006
Whilst
I notice that on other MB (e.g. history hub) they have initiated a 'bar'. Would there be any interest in such a move on this MB? A place where people could meet the 'locals' and find out about what their specific interests are, how they became interested in the topics discussed - and maybe most importantly what are the advantages of the MB system...
If anyone's interested I'll buy the first round!! Ìý
Good idea - one stop shop for all general merriments and communication - the MB in person will bloom.
One crazy irritation (which leads to the grumbles that you mention in your opening missive) is the fact that you cannot search on these Â鶹ԼÅÄ message boards.
On other Â鶹ԼÅÄ boards with this problem one mesage forming a 'Directory or members interests' or similar has come into being.
People can of course take it or leave it but if members do have a key/specific interest or expertise then this - or these - can be listed and therfore more dialgue can take place. E.g. New messages can solicit a response from said person.
The main function of the board would of course still continue as is.
Clink of the glass/beaker! -
Message 3
Posted by Bebakunin (U2999013) on Saturday, 4th February 2006
Cheers!
It is also difficult to know if anybody is on the MB - I guess the double asterix by the nick name is the only indicator(?).
Anyway while you're here what brought about your interest in archaeology? -
Message 4
Posted by Bebakunin (U2999013) on Saturday, 4th February 2006
Cheers!
It is also difficult to know if anybody is on the MB - I guess the double asterix by the nick name is the only indicator(?).
Anyway while you're here what brought about your interest in archaeology?Ìý
Doh! Looks like I've been hit by a severe case of disappearing double asterix!
I guess I'll prop up the bar and talk to the bar staff (hmm.. wonder if they have any interest in archaeology?) -
Message 5
Posted by Goldfinches (U2947535) on Saturday, 4th February 2006
<quote user='Bebakunin' userid='2999013'>Cheers!
It is also difficult to know if anybody is on the MB - I guess the double asterix by the nick name is the only indicator(?).
quote>
This was complete news to me!
<quote user='Bebakunin' userid='2999013'>Cheers!
Anyway while you're here what brought about your interest in archaeology?</quote>
At our school were were encouraged to minion for the local University Archhaeology Department - mainly due to the school staff who had graduated and then pottered just 10 miles up the road.
I think that we were of little use as essentially teenagers through and through. All prior to the more recent growth in public appreciation/interest so no badges of honour gained amongst school pals etc!
However, nearly all of our group went on to do things that had a very broad connection with A (and its values?!) over the years; so no bad thing all in all.
What did the bar staff say?
Chink of glasses - ringing of till -
Message 6
Posted by Bebakunin (U2999013) on Saturday, 4th February 2006
Sounds like an unusual and interesting intro to A. Shame that other schools haven't got such links. I've worked in several universities and no such scheme exists.
Given the lack of school interest in A, and (with reference to another thread re: ancient history in schools)little understanding of anything 'Pre-Roman' most people discover A almost by chance..
Any specific interests or just general interests? -
Message 7
Posted by Bebakunin (U2999013) on Saturday, 4th February 2006
Wonder what's on the juke box, Rolling Stones..typical, U2 'still haven't found what I'm looking for', not what you want after a hard day at the dig... 'Walking the dinosaur'.. hmm bit before my time...
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Message 8
Posted by Goldfinches (U2947535) on Sunday, 5th February 2006
Just found these to line up for the evening!
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Message 9
Posted by Goldfinches (U2947535) on Sunday, 5th February 2006
Or perhaps these to get the new week going...
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Message 10
Posted by Bebakunin (U2999013) on Monday, 6th February 2006
I love the ease some people slip into this new technology.. the closest I've come to a smiley was on my label in the 70s. (I know where to click for a smiley but I try to keep my clicking to a minimum)
One topic for the bar could be how people select their nicknames. I guess Artorious is derived from Lucius Artorious Castus (?) Goldfinches is a facinating one. I think my favourite (from the history hub) is the Shufflin' Peasant... -
Message 11
Posted by Goldfinches (U2947535) on Monday, 6th February 2006
You will see a rather a fine goldfinch depicted in the 'Garden of Earthly Delights' by Hieronymous Bosch - hangs in The Prado, Madrid I beleive.
One rather inspired nickname on the family tree board - ohvicaristhatacucumber - or close to that..
How did you come to dig digging? -
Message 12
Posted by Bebakunin (U2999013) on Monday, 6th February 2006
One rather inspired nickname on the family tree board - ohvicaristhatacucumber - or close to that..
Ìý
lol. I’ve spent a bit of time in the history hub MB ‘bar’. I like their attitude re: Â鶹ԼÅÄ religious boards. I wonder if ‘ohvicar’…etc has been on those boards.
My way into digging has been a bit meandering. On a superficial level I’ve always been curious about the digging thing – ‘Time Team’ level. I would take an interest in documentaries and/or articles in ‘broadsheets’.
I’m also researching and writing a book at the moment, without going into too much boring detail its about ‘Social harm and justice’. It is mainly theory/history. But the more I went further ‘back’ the increasing importance of the prehistoric became… Hence I have a lot of sympathy with comments on the thread re: teaching of ‘celtic history etc’ (I’m sure you know the one I mean.)
In the course of writing the book I came across Julian Thomas ‘Understanding the Neolithic’ and Chris Fowler’s ‘The Archaeology of the Self’ and I became hooked on the theoretical debates.
On a more personal level my family and I have just moved down to edge of New Forest from NE England. As we enjoy walking we have been overwhelmed by the archaeology around here in the New Forest (hence the Castle Hill thread), Cranborne Chase, Hengisbury (sp?) Head, Danebury, Maiden Castle. Combined with a couple of inspired Xmas pressies e.g. Martin Wood’s book on ‘Green Farm’ and Cunliffe’s ‘Facing the Ocean’, which have helped tremendously in our feeling of the legacy all around our walks. -
Message 13
Posted by Goldfinches (U2947535) on Monday, 6th February 2006
Hence I have a lot of sympathy with comments on the thread re: teaching of ‘celtic history etc’ (I’m sure you know the one I mean.)
Ìý
Ah - the 'Green Man and 'Toothless Crone' moment perchance? Good luck with the writing and stetching 'further back than expected' - also living in a cradle of history! Will see if I can track the vicar down......
With some Welsh living 2ndcousins I was always amazed at how much they seem to know about England and little about Wales. Things seem to have improved considerably in Welsh schools - but not necessarliy re: prehistoric/Celtic history.
On the Family Tree Board a recent comment noted with irritation that an ancestor born in England would have their vilage/town/county of birth recorded by the enumerators - whereas Scottish /Welsh ancestors being recorded in England (under the place of birth) simply had Wales or Scotland listed - perhaps this is just more of the same. Illiteracy did not help either I would think.
Maybe dealing with a Welsh speaker or Welsh place names and spelling was too grim for the over-worked enumerator. Ellis Island (US immigation at New York) is well known for re-naming people due to spelling difficulties.
Another thought - I was told that farming came possibly to prehistoric Britain 100s if not 1000s of years after being established even in Western Europe. Is this still the case or have any recent finds made a difference to this theory.
An interesting read is Food in History by Reay Tannehill.
Would welcome any other suggestions on food/farming in pre-history! -
Message 14
Posted by Bebakunin (U2999013) on Monday, 6th February 2006
Another thought - I was told that farming came possibly to prehistoric Britain 100s if not 1000s of years after being established even in Western Europe. Is this still the case or have any recent finds made a difference to this theory.
Ìý
I must admit I’m inclined to follow the gradual change to farming, especially farming within a sedentary existence. With the general proviso concerning the massive regional variations. From what I can gather such a position can still be maintained.
Would welcome any other suggestions on food/farming in pre-history! Ìý
That’s a stroke of luck, I’ve been writing (snail mail – it has many advantages) to a friend in the NE, we are both discussing prehistoric farming in British/European context. We are picking up as much as we can and trying to assimilate it all. Very basic stuff at present but I’ll let you know if we come across anything interesting. -
Message 15
Posted by Bebakunin (U2999013) on Monday, 6th February 2006
Just noticed this on Â鶹ԼÅÄ news, interesting (?) to anyone:
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Message 16
Posted by Goldfinches (U2947535) on Monday, 6th February 2006
Thank-you! Will look forward to hearing of anything that comes up on prehistoric farming/food in British/European context. -
Message 17
Posted by Bebakunin (U2999013) on Monday, 6th February 2006
Re: Message 16
Goldfinches,
Why don’t both/either of us set off a thread on prehistoric farming – begin with a quick bit on how we feel about the situation and see where it leads? -
Message 18
Posted by Bebakunin (U2999013) on Monday, 6th February 2006
On reflection I would prefer to sitck to 'British Isles' experience - obviously placed with European context.. But any which way. Anyone interested or has this been 'done to death' before?
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Message 19
Posted by Goldfinches (U2947535) on Monday, 6th February 2006
I am probably interested in the 'island' as in British isles re: farming/agriculture/food. -
Message 20
Posted by Goldfinches (U2947535) on Monday, 6th February 2006
......and becoming an island; encroachment of the sea. -
Message 21
Posted by Bebakunin (U2999013) on Monday, 6th February 2006
So from 'Mesolithic' onwards? Up to say Iron Age? All aspects of farming/agricultural/food that are of interest or appear significant. We could start a thread with request for opinions of these themes starting specifically about Mesolithic then see how it develops?
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Message 22
Posted by Bebakunin (U2999013) on Tuesday, 7th February 2006
I've stuck me toe in the water...'Conquest of Bread' I thought was an apt little plagerised title. I guess my nickname is more transparent now. I wanted to be Bakunin but I couldn't so I decided to Bebekunin instead.
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Message 23
Posted by Goldfinches (U2947535) on Tuesday, 7th February 2006
Well done - you're up to your ankles now!
Have just read BREAD and - dare I say - am now off to digest it!
Sorry I missed your post of 15 hours ago! WAs not ignoring the idea at all - am looking forward to the Conquest of Bread discussion! -
Message 24
Posted by Goldfinches (U2947535) on Tuesday, 7th February 2006
I've stuck me toe in the water...'Conquest of Bread' I thought was an apt little plagerised title. I guess my nickname is more transparent now. I wanted to be Bakunin but I couldn't so I decided to Bebekunin instead.Ìý
So you weren't born in Premukhino after all.... -
Message 25
Posted by Bebakunin (U2999013) on Tuesday, 7th February 2006
No. But rumour has it peasants have taken over the Estate and established a workers cooperative to introroduce vegan-methods of agricultural production in a 'no-dig' permaculturalist paradise!
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Message 26
Posted by Bebakunin (U2999013) on Tuesday, 7th February 2006
There is an interesting comment on the Vortigern and Arthur thread (message 42). I thought it was worthy of comment, but I didn’t want to divert the thread. DocMike15 makes some salient comments regarding the seemingly impenetrable ‘Dark Ages’ and the futility of the search for Arthur. With such a disruption in the archaeological record and the embryonic nature of history academic discourse will take a more adversarial nature. The key I feel is not to run from the problem of Arthur but address it straight on. The Vortigern and Arthur Thread is an excellent example of how addressing a question, which, may or may not be answerable, leads to a greater understanding of the lived reality of the moment. The thread contains questioning established knowledge, the context of a variety of positions with some links, references etc. and seems a secure forum of debate assessing what evidence there is. Thanks to all in this thread (inc. DocMike15 – this isn’t meant as a dig at your posting). Cheers!
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Message 27
Posted by Bebakunin (U2999013) on Wednesday, 8th February 2006
Arorious,
If you have a free moment (and the inclination) I would be interested if you could elaborate on you comments re: anachronism, especially with the concept of heirlooms ('Invasion Mania' Thread). I'm in total agreement with the dangerous use of 'anachronism'. The 'heirloom' issue, however, has been running around my head. If time is an issue any indication of where I could look more at this issue would be appreciated.. -
Message 28
Posted by Goldfinches (U2947535) on Wednesday, 8th February 2006
The trailer for 'time' is quite ambiguous, seems to be concnered with how time is experienced - but get the feeling that it is more to do with aging or some such thing - rather than the big picture.
Though imagine that this ambiguity in the marketing is in order to attract a wide audience.........
I wonder what Â鶹ԼÅÄ4 is like...........?
Does it smell fresher....taste more succulent??? -
Message 29
Posted by Artorious (U1941655) on Wednesday, 8th February 2006
Hi Bebakunin
Sorry I have not been able to reply recently to the threads. Pressures of work I'm afraid, January is always a bit quiet but come February business picks up. Re Heirlooms, this is just an archaelogical excuse for when items are found in the wrong layer of a dig, or in the wrong place etc. It's always assumed to be an heirloom from a previous time because their chronology makes it so. If these heirlooms were accorded their propper place chronology could be fixed. I have read so many papers that include such anomolies and comments such as well this is very similar to something that happened 400 years previosuly but cannot be the same due to chronological difficulties so we must basically ignore it. It is especially so in pottery and ceramics and not only the type of ceramics but the actual artwork on them also. -
Message 30
Posted by Artorious (U1941655) on Wednesday, 8th February 2006
Hi Bebakunin
Sorry I have not been able to reply recently to the threads. Pressures of work I'm afraid, January is always a bit quiet but come February business picks up. Re Heirlooms, this is just an archaelogical excuse for when items are found in the wrong layer of a dig, or in the wrong place etc. It's always assumed to be an heirloom from a previous time because their chronology makes it so. If these heirlooms were accorded their propper place chronology could be fixed. I have read so many papers that include such anomolies and comments such as well this is very similar to something that happened 400 years previosuly but cannot be the same due to chronological difficulties so we must basically ignore it. It is especially so in pottery and ceramics and not only the type of ceramics but the actual artwork on them also. -
Message 31
Posted by Bebakunin (U2999013) on Thursday, 9th February 2006
Hi Artorious,
Thanks very much, I hoped that was the archaeological meaning of heirloom, but needed confirmation. I’ve only been delving deeply into archaeology since last May, begin self-taught there is always the danger of missing the true meaning of the simplest of concepts…
Obviously, there is no need to apologise for not responding to the threads, these MB are amazingly time consuming and given your contribution to several threads I can see you must juggle many issues (and that’s before the pressure of the outside world!). Hope business goes well – archaeology related perchance?
Re: Invasion Mania
I’ve been trying to fit ‘why I don’t think leadership began in early Bronze’ into a tidy posting without much success. Instead I’ll put the case for later introduction of the concept in Late Bronze – something that you and others can contemplate and criticise.
Hi Goldfinches,
I, too, will miss any Â鶹ԼÅÄ 4 productions. I guess 4 will, at present, seem fresher than the terrestrial channels due to less repeats (no doubt that will change overtime). More succulent? I guess 90% cheap filling and 10% leaving a pleasant taste in the mouth…nothing more. -
Message 32
Posted by Plancenoit (U1237957) on Thursday, 9th February 2006
Blimey. A bit quiet in here. Nice to see a familiar face behind the Bar. How are you Bebakunin?? You certainly get around a bit. Does DL know you've opened a rival establishment??
My kind of irreverent chat doesn't always go down well on the A&A boards, hence the infrequent visits, but some of the threads are very interesting if sometimes a little out of my depth.
Allow me to put a few cyber shekels behind the bar for anyone who wants a drink. I'll pop in again sometime now I know you've opened, and I'll do my best not to upset the regulars.
All the best -
Message 33
Posted by Goldfinches (U2947535) on Thursday, 9th February 2006
As I'm supping with the Ancients; this coin the BM purchased this week - sadly not from me - is it possible to ascertain its value / purchase power etc at its time of minting?
Was it a salary coin? - an 'I'm as rich as Croesus' or equivalent coin? - a back pocket handy whn I'm out coin? - a 'kept in the safe' but it's mine all mine coin?......a will you marry me, look how much I've got coin?...etc etc
As I make merry here in the corner do drop in a wee comment on this if you will...... -
Message 34
Posted by Bebakunin (U2999013) on Thursday, 9th February 2006
Evening Goldfinches,
BM = British Museum? Have I missed something? -
Message 35
Posted by Bebakunin (U2999013) on Thursday, 9th February 2006
Found it. £350,000. Well heck!
Have you noticed the MEAD thread on history hub, might be useful for the Conquest of Bread Thread. -
Message 36
Posted by Bebakunin (U2999013) on Thursday, 9th February 2006
I've just made the 2100th post on Ancient and Archaeology. Will the BM present me with a saxon coin?
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Message 37
Posted by Goldfinches (U2947535) on Thursday, 9th February 2006
A vertitable hailstorm of messages!!!
Where do I begin:
BM - seems to have heaps of spare cash - anyway saw a page-three type, full-frontal of the coin in today's Guardian - though the image may have left some with the idea that the coin was something huge and unwieldy at 6'' in diameter (still cannot 'do' metric) and therefore worth the bucks......
...anyway is was all just a Guardian image design feature thing; I think the coin is actually just a pretty standard size..
Bucks - yes, a big spend and it did look lovely (can I use that word here?) - BUT if, for example, I was milling around in this very bar at the time of its minting how many drinks could we all sup and still have change???
If you had been were born in Russia - as you had hoped to be...then you would have been just the chap to make some comment on value - in oh so many ways.
Anyway - it's all been on my mind all day, what did having that coin, when in your hand, mean?
By the way, Sotheby's went a bit 'spend it all on art' bonkers yesterday as well - wish I'd kept my collection of Munch paintings and not used them to build an ark for the cat.
Postings - are your fingers not sore? The important measure is time, of course. If you had made these postings in one day, then I might weep for you - but it could be that you ARE the ancients of ancients....tell all! Or you will not get the coin - they are saving it for you!
Will look at 'mead' - and once we know what this coin can buy at the bar, well, then we can have a little drinkie - or possibly very many!!!! -
Message 38
Posted by Bebakunin (U2999013) on Friday, 10th February 2006
I'm off line for about a week. Thanks for some stimulating converstations. Sorry if no one apart from Goldfinches and Artorious liked the 'bar' idea. If this thread disappears without a trace I promise not to revive it..
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Message 39
Posted by Goldfinches (U2947535) on Friday, 10th February 2006
Hope things go your way when off-line - two people make a meeting............... -
Message 40
Posted by Bebakunin (U2999013) on Tuesday, 21st February 2006
Due to Goldfinches generosity I’ll put myself forward as half a meeting. Are you still propping up the bar Goldfinches? Hope you haven’t caught Artorious’ flu. Hopefully you are recovering well Artorious, given the posts and threads you’ve made you seem well on the road to recovery.
Whilst I’ve been away I’ve been discussing issues concerning prehistoric ‘Food, Agriculture and Farming’ with an old friend. As he is far more knowledgeable concerning agricultural issues I took on board his concern over differences in our use of the concept of transhumance. He was uncomfortable with his perception of how anthropologists (and archaeologists) are utilising the label. On returning home I discovered that this issue has recently been commented upon by Schuyler Jones I’ve misplaced the reference, it was in a recent issue of the Journal of the Royal Society for Anthropology but I’m not sure which one. At the moment I’m trying to take the key points out of his article for the ‘Conquest of Bread’ Thread. If anyone has read this article (or has the reference!) I’d be interested to know their views here or on the ‘Conquest of Bread’ thread. -
Message 41
Posted by Goldfinches (U2947535) on Wednesday, 22nd February 2006
Another half of a meeting steps in - am very involved with the Winter Olympics but thought that I would have a look in - bought some gluhwein with me but, sorry B, have now supped it all.
Hope to be back on track again soon and will look up the document you mention above. -
Message 42
Posted by Bebakunin (U2999013) on Monday, 27th February 2006
Well, back to half a discussion. I'm interested in setting off a threadon the magical moment when prehistory is transformed into history. Has this be done to death?
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Message 43
Posted by Bebakunin (U2999013) on Monday, 27th February 2006
Actually I would like to set a thread like this off and running But in very childish way the last thread was the 2,300th posting on this MB and I just wanted to claim it. The certificate will undoubtedly be even more grandiose than the one I got for the 2,100th posting a couple of weeks back.
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Message 44
Posted by Goldfinches (U2947535) on Tuesday, 28th February 2006
Hello B!
You are the ancient of ancients!
Am tearing around at the moment and cannot get time to settle down.
Well it looks like these discussions will need to remain as small packages.
I was reading about 'sin eaters' - those who ate bread or similar from the chest of the deceased in order to absorb their sins. The sin eater was usually already a community outcast - have you ever come across the idea of a 'sin eater' or anything similar? -
Message 45
Posted by Bebakunin (U2999013) on Tuesday, 28th February 2006
Sounds fascinating, I've never come across this phenomenon. Where does this comment come from? Which culture(s) does it apply? I'll try and get some info. Good to see you back.
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Message 46
Posted by Goldfinches (U2947535) on Tuesday, 28th February 2006
Ha - may just have found you!
Wales - so at the risk of the the things that have gone before concening the Welsh, Celts, Druids, language, barbarians et al.......
There do seem to be some extraordinary and local 'rites' that are coming to the fore. I found this information on a village website in Wales and though I am happy to be corrected - I have not come across the like in England.
One point to note was that it was mentioned that this may still take place. I have not yet found any academic source but imagine that Bangor or Aberwyswyth University would have considerable material.
Many of these rites/tradition do seem to be concerned with death/passing the mortal coil et al.
Maybe the Welsh are just different - or simply happier to write it down..... Should you find out any more do jot down a note.
In more remote communities it is so tempting to wonder at the source of such activity.
G -
Message 47
Posted by Goldfinches (U2947535) on Tuesday, 28th February 2006
I know that you will hate this - a link!
Having used google this came up
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Message 48
Posted by Bebakunin (U2999013) on Tuesday, 28th February 2006
Wonderful. I'll digest etc. and see what I can find out..
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Message 49
Posted by Goldfinches (U2947535) on Tuesday, 28th February 2006
This site also mentions specific areas of England - the original piece that I read suggested that this was more prevelant as a Welsh custom.
However, the suggustion here is that it continued more recently in Wales than elsewhere.
I have not come across burial cakes in contemporary life but yes to the concepet of 'transfernce' in early cultures. -
Message 50
Posted by Goldfinches (U2947535) on Tuesday, 28th February 2006
Do you know the painting by (I think) Goya of Saturn (I think) devouring his son (I think)?????
Hmmmmm - I will need to do some looking up on this one - but the image is just bearing down on me!
If that ain't a sin-eater in action.......!!
I will return........................
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