Ancient and ArchaeologyΜύ permalink
Time Gentlefolk, Please!
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Message 1.Μύ
Posted by Bebakunin (U2999013) on Friday, 3rd February 2006
Not last orders at the bar! Rather, Iβd like to enquire how contributors on this MB consider the question of how our ancestors perceived time. I believe this is a necessary consideration for any period and the conceptualisation of time will have an enormous impact on the lived reality faced by our prehistoric ancestors. In many ways the importance of time is recognised by the term βLongue Dureeβ and in many senses this concept directs research into this period. However, the implications of such a notion are often implicit and not drawn out.
To start off, as is my want, I shall focus on the British Isles (however, any geographical expansion on this would be more than welcome!). I would like to consider the Neolithic position. The Mesolithic legacy of time, I suggest, is the conceptualisation of the cyclical nature of time. This would be constructed with reference to nature and the temporal requirements associated with a βhunter-gathererβ society. A Neolithic development in the construction in time can obviously be seen in the construction of the ritual landscape, which not only orders the spatial construction of the environment but provides a temporal reference for social groups as well. Combined these factors present a present perspective (essential to maintain a subsistence existence) and a past perspective (whereby recognition with the ancestors establishes a meaning and a context for Neolithic living arrangements). However, where does this leave a future perspective? Any suggestions? -
Message 2
Posted by Goldfinches (U2947535) on Friday, 3rd February 2006
An important component to the early concept of time was the menstrual cycle.
Females physically capable of child-bearing had a regular physical experience which had an impact on the way of life of the wider population.
Where women lived in close proximity - as is still the case - pheromones dictated that they menstruated in unison.
In many early - and some modern - communities this cycle determined which males a woman could and could not be in proximity to. Some have determined that this could mean that during the highly fertile stages of their cycle women could not live with or near their fathers, brother or sons.
You may recieve a lot of more directly relevant responses to your posting but this physical manifestation of the nature of time hopefully adds a useful element. I hope that others may comment in more detail and with more specific evidence relating to this subject. -
Message 3
Posted by Bebakunin (U2999013) on Friday, 3rd February 2006
Re: Message 2
Thanks Goldfinches for the comment - highly unexpected, but as you recognise of central significance. I think you illustrate how the experience of time varies upon context and difference within the community. Not only does this stand on its own as a useful parameter, I feel it could be utilised in conjunction with Kathleen Bolen's work on 'Prehistoric Construction of Mothering'. Whilst this work is not focussing on the construction of time per se it has obvious implications which can also be tied in with your comments..IMHO.. -
Message 4
Posted by Goldfinches (U2947535) on Friday, 3rd February 2006
This is one of a number of publications that touch on the subject; might be worth referring to this at some point in relation to the wider theme of your research.
Knight, Chris 1991 Blood Relations: Menstruation and the Origins of Culture Yale University Press New Haven.
This publication has, possibly rightly, been criticised for some of its elements - however sticking to your subject of the concept of time there may be some relevant points here and in similar studies.
One key thing is that most women know that their cycles will gradually come into unison if and when they are in close, long-term proximity to each other - one criticism for this publication that will always be refuted is the questioning of this fact by some well known historians!
Good to know you have received something unexpected - now wishing you all the best for the main theme of your research! -
Message 5
Posted by Goldfinches (U2947535) on Friday, 3rd February 2006
Sorry forgot this:
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Message 6
Posted by Bebakunin (U2999013) on Friday, 3rd February 2006
Re: Chris Knight reference
Thanks Goldfinches, this does look interesting. I'm always concerned if someone is described as an 'Ultra-Darwinst'. However, best not throw the baby out with the bath water...
With regard to the main criticism of the book...
One key thing is that most women know that their cycles will gradually come into unison if and when they are in close, long-term proximity to each other - one criticism for this publication that will always be refuted is the questioning of this fact by some well known historians!
Μύ
...simply another deletrious effect of male domination of academia (amongst other things!!).
Thanks also for pointing me in the direction of Castle Hill ('In Through the Outdoor' Thread) -
Message 7
Posted by generallobus (U1869191) on Friday, 3rd February 2006
Just a suggestion but there's something nagging in the back of my mind that says our linear view of time is a result of the Neoplatonic idea that every concept has a kind of beginning and end. eg. if you imagine aline, at one end is pure light and at the other pure dark. Every manifestation of light must be somewhere alomng this line. I think it was St Augustine of Hippo who applied this idea to good and evil and I thnik it is from this point that as humans we started to perceive time as linear. Could be wrong tho.
On a slightly diff note. The dating system the Romans used was from the mythic date of the founding of the city by Romulus and Remus - 753 bce. -
Message 8
Posted by Bebakunin (U2999013) on Friday, 3rd February 2006
Hi Generallobus,
I've been working on the same origins of linear time i.e. the Greek connection. What I'm not sure is how much of an impact this would have had on everyday life. That is, given 'British' Iron Age emphasis on cyclical time and the already complex relationship with the past (ancestors, oral history, mythology etc) would the introduction of the concept of linear time hold any advantage. Therefore, would it have been adopted or ignored. -
Message 9
Posted by generallobus (U1869191) on Friday, 3rd February 2006
My own theory would assimilation over time. ie. when Rome/Xtianity 'took over' Britain most of the population would still have been of the iron age mentality and probably ignored the State religion, at least in private. However over time its usage would denigrate into folklore and myth, some traces of which can still be found in our language, nusery rhymes and place names. I've heard theories that the children's rhyme 'Eenie Meanie Minny Moe' has its origins in the procedure for chossing an iron age sacrificial victim! Not sure of the veracity of this tho'.
Cheers -
Message 10
Posted by Goldfinches (U2947535) on Friday, 3rd February 2006
This book discusses the concept of time in the ancient world, as expressed in historical and literary evidence.
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Message 11
Posted by Bebakunin (U2999013) on Friday, 3rd February 2006
Re: Message 9
Agreed. The other issue to touch on with the early Christian perception of time (at least until the Enlightenment)that is, whilst time is percieved as linear it is dengenerative as opposed to progressive. That is, from the heights of 'Eden' through to the total decline of civilisation associated with the coming of Judgement!!
Re: Message 10
Thanks again Goldfinches,
Unfortunately, being one of the great unwashed (unemployed)such references are a bit of an extravagance. Before anyone replies with the joys of public libraries I've already spent a fortune requesting books. Are well, I'll be asking for book tokens again this birthday... cheers anyway! -
Message 12
Posted by Goldfinches (U2947535) on Friday, 3rd February 2006
Hello,
Not meaning to irritate you re: public libraries BUT
Depends where you live - if you request books on-line via our county library service then its free - any other way they charge. Also they ask US the public of the country to suggest books for THEM to toddle off and buy. But it's v rural out here.....so perhaps trying to catch up with things metropolitan!
Have a look at your library's website just in case.....
You could always look the book up on SKOOB etc... or Unsworth Books in London for a second hand copy -
Message 13
Posted by TonyG (U1830405) on Friday, 3rd February 2006
I have often wondeered why teh Sumerians felt the need to divide the day into hours and minutes. Obviously the cyclical nature of time would be important in terms of when to sow crops, etc. What is so important to early civilisations that requires time frames as short as an hour?
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Message 14
Posted by Bebakunin (U2999013) on Friday, 3rd February 2006
Hi Goldfinches,
Thanks again, very interesting info re:libraries. I had face to face with Dorset and Hampshire library staff about charges when I recently moved to this neck of the woods. They didn't mention anything about using web for free ordering but I'll give it a go! Cheers!! -
Message 15
Posted by Goldfinches (U2947535) on Friday, 3rd February 2006
Some possible examples for use of the hour:
One is paying or charging people - in quite a few cultures - whatever the currency.
Certain tasks like ceramics, working metal needed a set time period for working the material.
Punishment - sometimes based on a timed endurance
Presumably planets, stars, comets came into play and at times needed their activitiy to be broken down into a series of timed elements. -
Message 16
Posted by Bebakunin (U2999013) on Friday, 3rd February 2006
A very accessible and riveting read about different perceptions of time is 'Pip Pip' by Jay Griffiths. She uses anthropological knowledge - not sure if she mentions Sumerians...
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Message 17
Posted by Goldfinches (U2947535) on Friday, 3rd February 2006
Depends where you live - if you request books on-line via our county library service then its free - any other way they charge. Also they ask US the public of the country to suggest books for THEM to toddle off and buy.
Μύ
This is meant to read '....the public of the COUNTY' - the 'country' makes it sound as thought they are buying the book choices of all those that live in Britain!!
Also, it could be that we are just lucky out here but out in this rural spot they definitely say - if books are reserved on line - NO CHARGE! -
Message 18
Posted by Bebakunin (U2999013) on Saturday, 4th February 2006
Utilising contemporary theories on the social construction of time it seems plausible to divide time into three specific dimensions that are interrelated. These can be labelled everyday time, lifetime and glacial time. Everyday time is concerned with the habitual elements of day-to-day. Again, utilising Pryorβs phrase - it involves the βdaily grindβ. The key aspect of everyday time is it concerns the mundane. Lifetime places the individual on a trajectory within which the biographical narrative contains similar events for all: birth, childhood dependency, maturation, procreation, and eventually death. These issues cause disruption to everyday time, not just for the individual concerned, but also for all those the individual is socially embedded. Events on the lifetime cycle require negotiation within the community, i.e. a standard response is required to ensure that disruptions are minimised. The concept of glacial time is more obscure. This represents a globally accepted notion of time; it is the cognitive alignment of everyday time and lifetime within a wider context of time that can be gleaned from the environment. For example, for Mesolithic and Neolithic folk it is based upon the cyclical forms employed within nature. The glacial, therefore, represents a framework, presenting an image of the norm (a backdrop against which the habitual is seen to be the most efficient use of time).
My suggestion is that the Neolithic represents a temporal revolution. This revolution can be seen in the construction and utilisation of the ritual landscape. At its broadest level the ritual landscape focuses upon the greatest disruption in everyday life and one of the most significant aspects of lifetime: death. It allows the enlarged community a period of time, outside of the demands of everyday time, to negotiate the meaning of death. Time βspentβ at the ritual landscape is also indicative of recognition of the cyclical nature of glacial time with activities occurring at specific moments of importance (e.g. times of plenty, after harvesting and times of concern e.g. the height of winter). The nature of activities during this time is also significant for it is characterised by communal production, reciprocity and centralised distribution (i.e. feasting). In association with the last comment, the gathering of peoples and the distribution of surplus that is produced in everyday time, in itself, alters the significance and meaning of everyday time.
To summarise, the Neolithic temporal revolution is a significant moment for it constructs within social time a division between the mundane and the spectacular (which in many ways can be regarded as a βtime outside of timeβ).
N.B. Above I refer to lifetime as βa trajectory within which the biographical narrative contains similar events for allβ, I would emphasise that it cannot be identical for all. For example, Goldfinches comment (message 2) is indicative of one way in which the experience of time will vary within groups!! -
Message 19
Posted by generallobus (U1869191) on Tuesday, 7th February 2006
One suggestion for the introduction of hours, and this is pure speculation, is magical ritual. Many modern occultists claim middle eastern antiquity for their practices and alot of these practices involve invoking certain er, powers, aspects of one's subconscious, call it what you will. Anyway the point is that there are specific times for carrying out these rituals. Poss this could go some way to explain hours. Could be complete hogwash, of course.
Cheers
Lobus -
Message 20
Posted by Bebakunin (U2999013) on Tuesday, 7th February 2006
The use of rituals may be a potential area, but wouldn't time measurement be on a grander scale -lunar cycles etc. Although I wouldn't dismiss the idea out of hand.
What about the first production of metals, would this provide one of the first times that 'events' and 'processes' needed to be timed on a micro-level (that is, dividing up the day)?
That's just an off the top of the head approach... Fascinating point though, I'll think on about that...
Cheers -
Message 21
Posted by Goldfinches (U2947535) on Tuesday, 7th February 2006
Shamanism comes to mind - am going to go and think about this.
I too feel that there came a point when certain processes required a form 'timing' regarding the materials/activities required. -
Message 22
Posted by generallobus (U1869191) on Tuesday, 7th February 2006
Maybe the burning of candles or something at a set rate would be more appropriate for timing metallurgical processes. I think the Romans used water pouring from an amphora to time the intervals between semaphore messages (thanks to Adam Hart-Davies). If I'm reading you correctly you're pondering why the day is divided up, not just a way of measuring a specific period?
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Message 23
Posted by Bebakunin (U2999013) on Tuesday, 7th February 2006
Both really, in many ways both concepts must have developed at the same time (no pun intentded). Different rates of progress depending on necessity but ulitmately intricately bound
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Message 24
Posted by Goldfinches (U2947535) on Tuesday, 7th February 2006
Notes: must not forget the Eqyptians; and sun dials - including sticks stuck in the ground to cast a shadow.
Something Australian is also at the back of my mind..... -
Message 25
Posted by generallobus (U1869191) on Tuesday, 7th February 2006
Hi Goldfinches
Your comment reminds me of the post hloes found under the car park at Stonehenge. There are I think 4 post holes in a line. The theory is that the posts were used to mark the passage of the moon so they could predict the solsices. I think they were dated to about 5000bce but I could be a bit out there. -
Message 26
Posted by Goldfinches (U2947535) on Wednesday, 8th February 2006
Note: ΒιΆΉΤΌΕΔ are running a programme called 'Time' on ΒιΆΉΤΌΕΔ4 v soon - not sure if it may touch on time in prehistoric period et al.
Will find out when it is repeated on ΒιΆΉΤΌΕΔ2...... -
Message 27
Posted by Bebakunin (U2999013) on Wednesday, 8th February 2006
Seeing as where we are I'll avoid a rant, maybe one day I'll bring it up in the bar. I suppose there is no actual guarantee that it will be repeated on ΒιΆΉΤΌΕΔ2 is there?
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Message 28
Posted by Goldfinches (U2947535) on Wednesday, 8th February 2006
No - so I'll miss it............
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