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Message 1.Ìý
Posted by zaggernaut (U3056504) on Thursday, 26th January 2006
HI guys,
I am a new historian, Dan Brown initiated my interests into such religio-historical aspects of society.
Anybody here with neutral views about The Da Vinci Code?
The text has catalysed my thoughts about studying history and knowing and debating more about 'taken for granted' traditions and beleifs.
Hope I meet some like minded people here.
Thanks
Hersh -
Message 2
Posted by TonyG (U1830405) on Thursday, 26th January 2006
Welcome. Glad the book has got you thinking. Never take anyting for granted. I find it useful to try to read at least two books on any subject to get differing viewpoints. And remember that every book or programme has its own agenda.
The Da Vinci Code is a case in point. Excellent story, well written and highly entertaining. Enough grains of truth put together cleverly to concoct an intriguing story. But remember, it is a work of fiction and some of the "facts" are stretched a bit to fit in with the story.
Don't get me wrong, I loved it. It was a great read, but use it to further your interest in history rather than regarding it as history itself. -
Message 3
Posted by PaulRyckier (U1753522) on Thursday, 26th January 2006
Re: Message 1.
Hersh,
we had a conclusive debate here about all that stuff yet. It's a historymessage board overhere.
However there is perhaps one positive note about it here in Belgium. The "Opus Dei" is complaining to, I don't know what commission, to let it forbid to be read for people under 16 because they aren't treated very well in the book. Opus Dei was once put in a list of sects by another commission here in Belgium together if I recall it well with the Scientology Church. The former "nihil obstat" printed in any book to be sure that you were allowed to read it as a Roman-Catholic, springs to mind.
I don't know if Opus Dei is right about the unfair treatment in the Vinci book, because I am a fan of historical novels, but only those about real historical events.
Kind regards and welcome to the boards. -
Message 4
Posted by zaggernaut (U3056504) on Thursday, 26th January 2006
Welcome. Glad the book has got you thinking. Never take anyting for granted. I find it useful to try to read at least two books on any subject to get differing viewpoints. And remember that every book or programme has its own agenda.
The Da Vinci Code is a case in point. Excellent story, well written and highly entertaining. Enough grains of truth put together cleverly to concoct an intriguing story. But remember, it is a work of fiction and some of the "facts" are stretched a bit to fit in with the story.
Don't get me wrong, I loved it. It was a great read, but use it to further your interest in history rather than regarding it as history itself.Ìý
Hi Tony,
Just the sort of discussion I wanted! I am a literature student and never actually resorted to so-called popular fiction or bestsellers.But I have a group of evangelist friends here in Liverpool.Their hue and cry propelled me to read Vinci Code.
The narrative is a typical thriller with events unfolding in cause and effect manner with all tactics of enthralling the reader into 'what happens next' scenario. I wasn't very impressed!
But as Dan Brown suggests and you said thet it's a work of fiction and yeah facts have been stretched a bit.It doesn't help me to beleive that Jesus was married and a father and Church went to lengths to hide it this long. What matters to me is the concept of history itself.Something Brown and his mouthpiece in the novel Langdon stressed, 'history is written by winners'. Whether we can ever unearth the other side, if it exists, of the story is a different thing but why don't we atleast engage in debate and dicussions about all the possible dimensions? -
Message 5
Posted by zaggernaut (U3056504) on Thursday, 26th January 2006
Re: Message 1.
Hersh,
we had a conclusive debate here about all that stuff yet. It's a historymessage board overhere.
However there is perhaps one positive note about it here in Belgium. The "Opus Dei" is complaining to, I don't know what commission, to let it forbid to be read for people under 16 because they aren't treated very well in the book. Opus Dei was once put in a list of sects by another commission here in Belgium together if I recall it well with the Scientology Church. The former "nihil obstat" printed in any book to be sure that you were allowed to read it as a Roman-Catholic, springs to mind.
I don't know if Opus Dei is right about the unfair treatment in the Vinci book, because I am a fan of historical novels, but only those about real historical events.
Kind regards and welcome to the boards.Ìý
Paul,
Hi prior to reading the book I never knew about Opus Dei, nor about Priory of Sion or Holy Grail as a metaphoric religious symbol.
THe book has initiated some reserach.
PLease share some historical novels you have liked.
THanks -
Message 6
Posted by TonyG (U1830405) on Thursday, 26th January 2006
Zaggernaut,
I wouldn't class the Da Vinci Code as a typical thriller. I think it was definitely a top class thriller. The danger is that some people will regard it as absolute truth.
There was an investigative documentary on TV the other week about the claims in the book and a lot of them were argued against, but someone made the point that it would actually have been unusual for any Jew of the time not to have been married, and there certainly are other gospels than those in the New Testament. The one Brown qoutes about Jesus kissing Mary apparently has a missing word, so it reads "he used to kiss her on the...." Mouth? Forehead? Hand? This is the type of thing Brown uses cleverly by making it say what he wants to help his story.
The programme also had Brian Sewell the art critic arguing against the Last Supper comments,and he made some good points but then rather ruined it by saying he had never read the book and wouldn't do so because he knew it was rubbish. But he was happy to denounce it. Talk about a closed mind! -
Message 7
Posted by zaggernaut (U3056504) on Thursday, 26th January 2006
Zaggernaut,
I wouldn't class the Da Vinci Code as a typical thriller. I think it was definitely a top class thriller. The danger is that some people will regard it as absolute truth.
There was an investigative documentary on TV the other week about the claims in the book and a lot of them were argued against, but someone made the point that it would actually have been unusual for any Jew of the time not to have been married, and there certainly are other gospels than those in the New Testament. The one Brown qoutes about Jesus kissing Mary apparently has a missing word, so it reads "he used to kiss her on the...." Mouth? Forehead? Hand? This is the type of thing Brown uses cleverly by making it say what he wants to help his story.
The programme also had Brian Sewell the art critic arguing against the Last Supper comments,and he made some good points but then rather ruined it by saying he had never read the book and wouldn't do so because he knew it was rubbish. But he was happy to denounce it. Talk about a closed mind! Ìý
Tony,
I agree it isn't a typical thriller in a real way, more belonging to a detective genre of Edger Allan Poe type. Well written and definitely very intelligent writer who knows what he is doing!
I also wached that programme you mentioned and actually it moved me to go and read the book.
Yeah there are soe definite arguable points: like the ones you mentioned. And of course I have, being a non-christian, always pondered over the fact that who actually decided which gospels to indclude and on what basis and who were to decide. So Dan actually makes a very valid argument out of it. And if you are aware of Nag Hammadi texts found in Egypt 1945, which were the real source of that very passage of Jesus being amorous with Mary, You would know that there has been stuff censored.THe book very genuinely questions the selecting or censoring body and ponders over the reason and may be spends a bit of this reasoning into fantasy!
The Last Supper has been always aclaimed as a portrait of Jesus with all his disciples. HOly Grail has been mentioned to be present and I have never read Mary to be present. So Dan actually makes some revealations, logical or fanciful I can't say!
THanks a lot for engaging in discussion would you like to tell us more about yourself Tony.
THanks
Hersh -
Message 8
Posted by Artorious (U1941655) on Thursday, 26th January 2006
Hi all
I must admit I never read the book, also because it was fiction and looking at the plot line I realised I'd read it all before in various books such The Holy Blood and The Holy Grail and a host of books on the Templars and Gnostisism. Got another book on the Tempars for Xmas, yet to read.
If it has led people to enquire more about history then in my view it has done some good. -
Message 9
Posted by PaulRyckier (U1753522) on Sunday, 29th January 2006
Re: Message 5.
Hersh,
thanks for the reply. And you are right as some other here said, you say the same: "The book has initiated some research"
We said already the same about non-correct hisotrical films here on the boards. But the problem will perhaps always be that the common man always thinks that the fiction novel is real history, but yes if it it sparks some critical research... so all good that ends good...
Some historical novels? The last years I only read during holidays in the sun and only historical novels. Not much time to do research.
First what comes in mind: "Morgan's Run" about the settling of Australia by convicts from Colleen McCullough (put it in google to read more); from a Finnish writer but no time to seek it all back, all what I remember: he wrote: "The Egyptian" and Preminger, made a film of it in 1956? He wrote also "The Roman". All that work from Colleen and the Fin are based on meticulous historical research. I even think that the Fin was a historian.
Further Gore Vidal seems to have done a lot of research for his "Creation". Less for his "Empire"?
"The Cruel Sea" history from an insider? I read also a book from a Spanish historian (it only exists in Spanish language) The Guilden Chamber or something like that. About the 11th century Europe focused on Spain Salamanca and the Moors. Splendid stuff. Can seek the title back in the local library as I already did for Eric Lindsay. But as said that is perhaps not worthwhile while there is no English translation?
And I read a lot more historical works...smile.
Kind regards. -
Message 10
Posted by fairlace (U2945279) on Wednesday, 1st March 2006
Hi all
I must admit I never read the book, also because it was fiction and looking at the plot line I realised I'd read it all before in various books such The Holy Blood and The Holy Grail and a host of books on the Templars and Gnostisism. Got another book on the Tempars for Xmas, yet to read.
If it has led people to enquire more about history then in my view it has done some good.Ìý
Apologies for nudging the thread but the Dan Brown trial has made 'the da Vinci code' of interest yet again. Rattling good thriller but why all the fuss about it - I do not know. Good for Dan Brown's bank balance I suppose. Interesting that the third author of 'the holy Blood and the Holy Grail' is not involved in the trial and the rumours of his illness seem to be exaggerated [excuse the misquote]
If it prompts informed debate, all to the good. -
Message 11
Posted by thegoodbadugly (U2942713) on Thursday, 2nd March 2006
at the moment i am thinking of trying to find the bones of jesus and cloneing him so me and jesus can have a cup of tea and a chat, this s a joke btw, i think there is such an interest in the book because people want some sign to soothe them.
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Message 12
Posted by kathyg (U3354656) on Thursday, 2nd March 2006
I really enjoyed the book but you couldn't really class it as a historical record. I think you should just read it and enjoy it but not use it as any sort of refernce for studying history!
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Message 13
Posted by mandysandy (U3354676) on Thursday, 2nd March 2006
I also watched that documentary and found it quite interesting. i am studying theology and came across an interesting point about the first Christians. it is believed by some that the first people to believe that Jesus rose from the dead were the first Christians. According to most of the Gospels it was Mary Magdalene and/or a group of women who first discovered Jesus tomb empty and believed he rose from the dead. would this not suggest as noted in the Da Vinci Code that God intended women to be head of the Catholic Church as women was the first Christians!!!
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Message 14
Posted by neilpd (U3355154) on Thursday, 2nd March 2006
How he its obvious from reading the da vinci code that dan Brown did no research at all!!!!!! its just an exciting story.
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Message 15
Posted by NicolaMorris (U3355161) on Thursday, 2nd March 2006
Hi,
I'm new to this site and i thought i'd answer you. I've never read the da vinci code, i've heard mixed opinions about the book, do you think it's worth the read? -
Message 16
Posted by spiritadventure (U3355165) on Thursday, 2nd March 2006
Hi Dan
I am very interested in the idea of Jesus being married to Mary Magdelaine.I enjoyed the book and will watch out for new info
Thanks
Angie -
Message 17
Posted by alisirish (U3355153) on Thursday, 2nd March 2006
i agree with neilpd its obvious that dan brown stole his ideas from the book the holy grail he just made it more entertaining for a worldwide audience, he wasnt interested in making a historical novel just in making money$$$$$$$
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Message 18
Posted by neilpd (U3355154) on Thursday, 2nd March 2006
yes its exciting,but it wont broaden your historical knowlede
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Message 19
Posted by fairlace (U2945279) on Thursday, 2nd March 2006
Zaggernaut,
I wouldn't class the Da Vinci Code as a typical thriller. I think it was definitely a top class thriller. The danger is that some people will regard it as absolute truth.
There was an investigative documentary on TV the other week about the claims in the book and a lot of them were argued against, but someone made the point that it would actually have been unusual for any Jew of the time not to have been married, and there certainly are other gospels than those in the New Testament. The one Brown qoutes about Jesus kissing Mary apparently has a missing word, so it reads "he used to kiss her on the...." Mouth? Forehead? Hand? This is the type of thing Brown uses cleverly by making it say what he wants to help his story.
The programme also had Brian Sewell the art critic arguing against the Last Supper comments,and he made some good points but then rather ruined it by saying he had never read the book and wouldn't do so because he knew it was rubbish. But he was happy to denounce it. Talk about a closed mind! Ìý
Brian Sewell did make some good points about the painting of the Last Supper. If you study Renaissance art you will know that Da Vinci did paint effeminate figures [Dan Brown's point in the book is that St John looks too feminine and is therefore a painting of Mary Magdalene] It was one of Da vinci's early paintings and he did have trouble in painting so many figures in a line, so to speak, which is why there is the curious gap the centre. On the plus side he did have a wonderful way of painting perspective. -
Message 20
Posted by barryredmond13 (U3356368) on Thursday, 2nd March 2006
I havnt read the book but i have a game on the PC called Broken Sword. It's about 10 years old. Has any1 played it? Basically IT IS the da vinci code. you play a guy who gets wrapped up in a murder plot in paris that involves the holy grail, the prophesy of sion and all that. it even ends in a church in scotland. has any1 thats read the book played it?
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Message 21
Posted by Nik (U1777139) on Thursday, 2nd March 2006
"Broken Sword" is a fairly old game. I had been given it as a present by my cousin. I quite liked the game. I read last year the Da Vinci code and to be honest I had completely forgotten the existence of that game - I am quite surprised how I forgot that (usually I am so keen to show to people how "inspiration" does not come from "above" but from copying considerable amounts of pre-existing works). Indeed the story is strange as it moved along the same lines... an american in paris, a murder, a french inspector, a hotel, signs and traces lead the american to Scotland I do not remember - I had never tried to finish it ... could you tell me what happened in the end?
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Message 22
Posted by barryredmond13 (U3356368) on Friday, 3rd March 2006
To be honest i'm not sure if I can remember. You discover that the Templar Knights still exist and that the leader is this weird Parisienne cop who tried to cover up the murder you witnessed. I think they try open up this portal or time machine or something using an ancient sword but fail. Aren't the Templar Knights featured in the book?. I also double checked and Broken Sword was made in 1996, well before the book. Does that sound like the plot in the book? By the way if anyone is wondering what the game is like it's a point and click adventure and one of the best games i've ever played. It's just been re-released on the GBA. There's also a sequel called the Smoking Mirror which has an unrelated plot but I we'll have to see if Dan Brown rips that off aswell.
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Message 23
Posted by fairlace (U2945279) on Friday, 3rd March 2006
To be honest i'm not sure if I can remember. You discover that the Templar Knights still exist and that the leader is this weird Parisienne cop who tried to cover up the murder you witnessed. I think they try open up this portal or time machine or something using an ancient sword but fail. Aren't the Templar Knights featured in the book?. I also double checked and Broken Sword was made in 1996, well before the book. Does that sound like the plot in the book? By the way if anyone is wondering what the game is like it's a point and click adventure and one of the best games i've ever played. It's just been re-released on the GBA. There's also a sequel called the Smoking Mirror which has an unrelated plot but I we'll have to see if Dan Brown rips that off aswell.Ìý
It sounds a whole lot more inspiring than the book which personally I would say was a good airport read: you know, doesn't matter if you leave it somewhere. I wonder why the games inventor isn't suing Dan Brown too! -
Message 24
Posted by heuvel (U1763810) on Tuesday, 7th March 2006
PLease share some historical novels you have liked.
°Õ±á²¹²Ô°ì²õÌý
Just remembered which were the historical novels I most enjoyed (dealing with real events, and, for me very convincing):
"Eagle in the Snow - general Maximus and Rome's Last Stand" by Wallace Breem (Roman Empire 350-410 culminating in the Vandals crossing the Rhine)
"A God Strolling in the Cool of the Evening" by Mário de Carvalho (Roman Empire, Southern Spain, ca. 180, local politics in a town threatened by a N-African incursion) -
Message 25
Posted by fairlace (U2945279) on Friday, 10th March 2006
PLease share some historical novels you have liked.
°Õ±á²¹²Ô°ì²õÌý
Just remembered which were the historical novels I most enjoyed (dealing with real events, and, for me very convincing):
"Eagle in the Snow - general Maximus and Rome's Last Stand" by Wallace Breem (Roman Empire 350-410 culminating in the Vandals crossing the Rhine)
"A God Strolling in the Cool of the Evening" by Mário de Carvalho (Roman Empire, Southern Spain, ca. 180, local politics in a town threatened by a N-African incursion)
Ìý
I enjoyed Ellis Peter's Brother Cadfael novels and Peter Tremayne's Sister Fidelma stories. Cadfael is set at the time of the civil war between King Stephen and Matilda [1135-1141AD] Fidelma is a nun and advocate in 7C Ireland. Interesting insight into the education and legal system of the times.
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