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The balance of the souls

• Message 1.Β 

  Posted by mvarennes (U2373372) on Thursday, 19th January 2006

  I have lately been looking at some medieval paintings (St Michael Weighing Souls in Oxfordshire). I couldn't keep out of my head the pictures of Egyptian journey of the dead.
  
  Any comments ?

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• Message 2

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  Posted by geminiW (U2779785) on Friday, 20th January 2006

  Among the various cultures accross our vast earth, through out plottable history and even a little beyond, legends, stories and their icons have sometimes curiously been mutual. It is almost like the ancient Malay cultures and the people from Africa had contact long before written history. Simalarly the ancient Chinese and the Red Indian cultures.
  
  Examples of what I am alluding to are for instance: The Golden Lady appearing in Chinese mythology. She bears remarkable resemblance to the Madonna. Eventhough she is carrying something else. Your example is another. Then there is the uncanny similarity between the human form and actions of the Serpent god from Aztec/Mayan mythology and Christ. There are ancient legends in Indonesia and Malaysia speaking of white peoples from the ocean. Stories echoed in central and Southern Africa.
  
  Whether these and other examples are resultant from the Christian influance in the respective cultures in later times or, signs of global communication long before we thought it possible, rather egocentrically so, I am afraid I am not educated enough to answer.
  
  It is fascinating to me aswell though.
  
  gW

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• Message 3

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  Posted by PaulRyckier (U1753522) on Friday, 20th January 2006

  Re: Message 2.
  
  Gemini,
  
  can it be that, as humans are in essence the same and for the essentials are thinking along the same lines, they come, when they reach a certain level of evolution, as a result mainly to visualize their thoughts along the same lines?
  
  Kind regards.

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• Message 4

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  Posted by mvarennes (U2373372) on Monday, 23rd January 2006

  the only plausible explanation for all the similitude between the religions that i can think of is that they would have a common past.
  and if everything started from one and single believe ?
  
  Islam and Christiannity are twin religion and both very recent. But there is many similitudes between politeism and monotheisme I think.
  even Boudhism idea of Nirvana is very close with our idea of Heaven, both accessible to the good and wises....

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  Posted by Erik Lindsay (U231970) on Tuesday, 31st January 2006

  the only plausible explanation for all the similitude between the religions that i can think of is that they would have a common past.
  and if everything started from one and single believe ?
  
  Islam and Christiannity are twin religion and both very recent. But there is many similitudes between politeism and monotheisme I think.
  even Boudhism idea of Nirvana is very close with our idea of Heaven, both accessible to the good and wises....Β 
  
  The similarites that you see stem from, IMO, the fact that the peoples involved with them have some commonality in their cultural and/or linguistic backgrounds...certainly this is true of the tribes dwelling in the fertile crescent and desert areas outside of Egypt. That would indeed suggest some belief foundation that produced a series of conflicting branches...not at all unusual if you consider the many discordant splinters that have developed within the Xian belief system.
  
  Were you referring to polytheism in your writing (politeism)? If so, I think you'd get quite an argument from Xian and Islamic scholars who feel very strongly that there is nothing polytheistic about their religion....i.e. note the oft-stated suffix to Islamic prayers ''there is no god but GOD''. Doesn't suggest any kinship with polytheism, surely.
  
  And of course, IMO there is no relationship between modern monotheism and ancient polytheistic religions. The Ancient Egyptian and Greek polytheism is nothing like the ''religions of the book''. There are all kinds of gods clattering about, each with his/her own special following and demands. Then there are the Vikings and their mass of gods where brutality and warfare seem to be in the forefront. In the Americas we have another series of polytheistic religions, not just in the late neolithic civilisations of meso-America and Peru, but in the pantheistic beliefs of the North American tribes and the Eskimos of the Arctic. I see nothing remotely relating to modern monotheism in these systems. But then, that's just me. Maybe there are some and I'm just blind to them.

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• Message 6

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  Posted by PaulRyckier (U1753522) on Tuesday, 31st January 2006

  Re: message 5.
  
  Erik,
  
  thank you for this great post. It is one of the Elistan, lol, Steve level.
  
  Kind regards.

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• Message 7

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  Posted by generallobus (U1869191) on Wednesday, 1st February 2006

  Just one point about polytheism Erik. Catholicism, whilst claiming to worship one god, not only has the divine trinity, which is tantamount to 3 separate gods, but has saints 'interceding' on one's behalf. For instance, if I were to lose my car keys I could quite feasibly ask St Micheal to intercede with god on my behalf to help find my keys. And beleive me this is not a flippant remark. We had what were called 'Holy days of Obligation' when we were allowed to take the day of school so we could go and worship the saint, not god. As I was one of only 3 catholics in our school it really cheesed off the rest of the kids, especially as there are around 30 throughout the year.
  The closest analogy would I suppose be something like Hinduism with its myriad gods, all aspects of the same divine power.
  
  As to the similarities in beliefs, I would suggest it is connected with our common origins. The main three monotheistic religions -Xianity, Judaism, Islam all have common roots, as do the indo european cultures. So it's not surprising so many of our myths and religions have similarities.
  Also I think it was Neitzche who said that humans have an inate capacity for the spiritual, in the same way as we require shelter, food and socialisation. We need some way of ordering the chaos of the universe. In his opinion this led to religion.

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• Message 8

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  Posted by Artorious (U1941655) on Wednesday, 1st February 2006

  Hi generallobus
  
  You make some very good points and also explain how the religions appear to have a common root. Your analogy with St Michael is interesting in that I see the same aspect in the Egyptian religion of many Gods. I see them all as aspects of the one, body or life. So when one wants to cure some part of the body one calls on the God associated with that part. Similarly if one wanted to find a lost item one would call on the God associated with finding things or knowing the paths. This to me seems a more direct route to the problem rather than calling on one God if you see my drift.
  
  As to the development of Religion in antiquity you quote Neitzches view which holds some validity but I would also take into account the idea of ancestor worship, coupled with nature making some impact on the later development of Religion.

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• Message 9

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  Posted by generallobus (U1869191) on Wednesday, 1st February 2006

  Artorious.
  
  Thanks for the reply. Ancestor worship is a fascinating aspect of our history. I dont know where you hail from but here in Britain many of the very old sites, such as the chambered neolithic tombs like West Kennet Long Barrow and Wayland's Smithy, showed indications that the bones of the people buried there had been taken out and reintered over and over again, ending up in a muddle of bones. One of the theories is that the ancestors were used as intermediaries with the underworld on behalf of the tribe/community. This could go someway to explain their prominent positions on the landscape.
  
  Also there's a theory that the fairies and such of Irish legend, known collectively as the sidhe (pro. shee) are actually a folk rememberance of this idea.
  
  Cheers
  
  Lobus

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• Message 10

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  Posted by PaulRyckier (U1753522) on Wednesday, 1st February 2006

  Re: Message 8.
  
  Lobus,
  
  in our overly Belgian catholic "land", it was St. Antonius called on for the lost objects.
  
  And thank you and Artorious for the interesting messages. I made already an eulogy of Erik's post.
  
  Kind regards.

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• Message 11

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  Posted by PaulRyckier (U1753522) on Wednesday, 1st February 2006

  Re: message 7 of course.

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• Message 12

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  Posted by generallobus (U1869191) on Thursday, 2nd February 2006

  Hi PaulRyckier
  
  To be honest my friend it's been so long since i practised catholicism that I just plucked any old saint's name out of the hat. You're quite right, though, it is saint anthony for lost and found.
  
  Cheers
  Lobus

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• Message 13

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  Posted by Artorious (U1941655) on Thursday, 2nd February 2006

  Hi Generallobus
  
  Yes the theory of ancestor worship is quite fascinating when we consider the extent to which these very ancient peoples went to preserve their ancestors remains. As you say, reintering over and over again over hundreds of years. But we are obviously assuming this is some form of ancestor worship for want of a better reason after all what else could it have been?? Any ideas?
  
  If we look at practically every religion, it is based on an ancestor type person who was either a God or became a God. This leads to the assumption that ancestor worship may have indeed played a part in the development of religion in tandem with the desire to control nature, which mankind has discovered can be very very dangerous.
  
  Changing the subject slightly, I also see the change of emphasis to water based cults as having occured due to natural causes. ie the development of the Celtic practice of sacrificing items in the waters to the Gods. I beleieve this change to a water based emphasis was due to widesspread flooding at some point, which started when the wetter period of Europe developed and when cataclysmic events such a Thera/volcanoes went up, causing earthquakes, tsunamis and the like.
  
  

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• Message 14

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  Posted by generallobus (U1869191) on Friday, 3rd February 2006

  Artorious
  
  As far as I can remember the idea of ancestor worship stems from modern athropological parallels with contemporary pre industrial societies such as tribes living in the Amazonian basin, Indonisia etc. Also historically we can see a development of Shamanic practices, which originated in the Asian Steppes, spreading down through the Black sea and into the mediterranean as the Greek colonies grew. Empedocles, Pythagoras and some of the more obscure offshoots of Greek religion, such as orphism illustrate this. (Orphism was an attempt by certain Pythagoreans to 'civilise' the Bacchic excesses which were undermining classical Athens) The shaman is basically the intermediary between the tribe and the gods/underworld. I would suggest that that these strands together ie. archeaological evidence, contemporary anthropology and historical records point to ancestor worship as being the most likely model. Always open to new ideas though.
  What are your thoughts on the matter?
  
  One of these days I'll put together a full acount of the rise and fall of the Orphics.
  
  Cheers

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