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Should ancient antiquities be returned.....

• Message 1.Β 

  Posted by Euergetes (U2891066) on Friday, 6th January 2006

  G'day all...
  
  i'm not sure if this has been discussed here before but I saw the thread on the British Museum and wondered....
  
  Should we return ancient artifacts to the countries that they came from. Should the Rosetta stone go to the Cairo Museum? Should the Elgin Marbles go back to Greece?
  
  It annoys me somewhat when you here other nations talk about the 'Western' colonial powers looting and stealing their artifacts since they now have that all important ability of hindsight..
  What would be left if items weren't begged, borrowed or stolen? The Elgin Marbles would have probably ended up as quicklime....
  What do people think??
  
  And then of course there is the educational value of these objects. How many people will be inspired by seeing these exhibits when they could never afford to go to these places?
  
  And as a final point.. what actually determines where an artifact should go? Is it purely physical location? If a roman mosaic is discovered in the UK, is it British or is it Roman (and hence Italian)
  
  And what is the way forward... can Museums trade artefacts?? Would it be possible for the Elgin Marbles to alternate between the Athens and British museums?
  
  In Australia for example, there has been a problem where a UK musuem (I forget which one)loaned some aboriginal works that they had aquired to a Melbourne museum and the Aboriginal community obtained a court injunction preventing them being returned because they were sacred objects... Now they is a big law suit and no-one wants to loan anything aboriginal to australian museums.
  
  What do ppl think???

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• Message 2

  , in reply to message 1.

  Posted by DL (U1683040) on Friday, 6th January 2006

  It would very in my opinion on individual circumstances.
  
  For instance, the finds in Turkey by the German Archaeologist who claimed to have discovered Troy (I think Schliemann but may be wrong). He found the artefacts, yet they are now in Moscow, so who owns them? Schliemann bought them from the Turkish government, and took them to Berlin, where they were kept until being seized by the Soviet Union at the end of WW2, and taken to Moscow as war booty where they remain to this day.
  
  So, who do they legitimately belong to? I'd say that they are probably better off staying where they are. The Turks sold them, a legitimate transaction. The Germans lost them to Russia (but then the Germans did also steal countless artworks and artefacts from Russia during the Nazi occupation). I have even heard of Greek claims to ownership (since they were exhibited there for a while).
  
  It is all very confusing with archaeological finds from the past. The Elgin Marbles should IMO be returned, although the Parthenon is way to pollution damaged to consider placing them back there. As for the "If something Roman is found in Britain", well, it is really nit-picking. If something is found in Britain, or any other country, regardless of its origin, it belongs to the country where is was found.
  
  I would say that each case has to be taken individually, ie whether it was legitimately bought from the government of the country of origin, or bought in a dodgy back-street shop filled with looted "treasure". If legitimately bought, then it can be safely said it belongs to its current owner, if looted from some grave or monument, then it is effectively stolen property, and should be returned. The Elgin Marbles are looted IMO and should be returned.
  
  Cheers
  DL

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• Message 3

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  Posted by Champollion (U2688478) on Friday, 6th January 2006

  When the Rosetta Stone was first discovered by Napoleon's soldiers the Egyptians weren't remotely interested in it. Its value was established by French and British scholars in their race to translate hieroglyphs. Why should the Egyptians have it back? I can see no good reason.

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• Message 4

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  Posted by Elistan (U1872011) on Friday, 6th January 2006

  The Elgin Marbles are looted IMO and should be returned.
  
  ¶Ω³ΆΜύ
  
  DL,
  
  Original the Marbles were financed by moneys looted from the Delian league. Why should one act of larcency supersede another?
  
  Elistan

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• Message 5

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  Posted by Idamante (U1894562) on Saturday, 7th January 2006

  If you return the Elgin Marbles to Greece just because they are "Greek" you are pandering to a Greek nationalist agenda that wants to glorify a modern nation-state by linking it to a distantly related ancient culture.
  
  I do think these ancient artefacts should be made as widely available as possible, eg by travelling around the world in international exhibitions. But the pride of modern nations shouldn't come into the equation - works of art like the Elgin Marbles are the universal legacy of humanity.
  
  

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• Message 6

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  Posted by Nik (U1777139) on Sunday, 8th January 2006

  Gaiseric, again you are out of reality. It is actually the non-nationalists and mostly left wing people in Greece that have as a scope the return of the marbles to Greece. Extra-right wing people are nto so interested in that and are mostly interested in the everyday violations of the Greek air-space by "european" turkey, the doubting of the Greek lands, the possible threats organised around Greece by countries having populations that are 10 times more nationalist than Greece etc. The Elgineian marbles are just the justification of some to serve an as-if national cause - I name Melina Merkouri (a woman I do not respect at all), that mainly created this issue to disorientate the public from the real problems.
  
  Of course the Elginian marbles should be in Greece. But then Konstantinoupolis and Smyrna and all Cyprus should be in Greece so what? Where does it end? I hope you understand my point of view.

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• Message 7

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  Posted by Elistan (U1872011) on Sunday, 8th January 2006

  Let's return Afghanistan to Greek Control! after all, Alexander was there once
  
  

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• Message 8

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  Posted by Nik (U1777139) on Sunday, 8th January 2006

  hahahah! You got my point Elistan!

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• Message 9

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  Posted by Nik (U1777139) on Sunday, 8th January 2006

  Champollion mentioned correctly the indifference of the average Egyptian to the monuments (though I am not 100% sure - I know that southern Kopts had a more sentimental relation with their ancient monuments perhaps since it is a population more directly descendant from ancient Egyptians than northern mainly arabic populations).
  
  In Greece the reality was totally different. The average Greek of 1700s and 1800s though 100% illiterate and living in barbaric conditions was always aware of his Greek identity and was extremely sensitive to his heritage. It is very interesting to note that foreigners who came in Greece for ancient monument plundering (as the fashion of archaiology had already started in northern Europe) could very easily get permissions by the indifferent Ottoman administration but then had a huge difficulty in recruiting workers to do the job. Despite the destitute situation and the absolute poverty of local Greeks, none wanted to do the job considering it either a treason or even as an act against God since many monuments had a sacred dimension for them (the average christian Greek had never christian-pagan dillemas!)...even if foreigners paid 3 times and 4 times wages, thus most of the times they had to recruit 'people' from other regions (usually people with criminal records, armed bandits of any origins etc.). Lord Elgin's effort to scratch off the marbles from Parthenon followed in many points the above. It noteworthy to mention that records of the times said that in the village of Athens (it was a village at those times) the villagers felt great pain for that act.
  
  An even more dramatic act was the famous Aphrodotie of Melos. Has anyone wondered were have been lost her two hands? Well, it is due to its plundering. Till Napoleonic times, the statue was.... exhibited in the city of the island as a holy object. People despite being devoted christians did not mind its paganistic past and its nudeness, actually considered that Aphrodite more valuable than their christian icons, they thought that the 'Lady' was the protector of their island. One day a ship of the French navy arrived in the port of the island having the permission to remove the island (see, that was Ottoman rule, anyone could come in take away anything and go out for peanuts... pathetic). The locals quickly realised what was going on and gathered all in the port armed with knifes, farming equipment or simply their hands, guided by their local priest holding a cross to... throw away the "anti-christs" Franks!! The French soldiers aimed the Melos people with their guns, they tied in a hurry the statue with ropes and throwed it to the ground (that is where the first hand was broken to pieces and started dragging it (you may see today the marks on the body) the people rushed in, the soldiers fires and hit some (we do not know about deaths but it is most certainly that some might have died on both sides), the narrations says that both sides fought bravely, the French took out their swords to protect those who were dragging the statue on ground, the locals broke the defense and caught the statue by the hand started dragging it in the opposite direction (the priest shouting "antichrists you will pay for that!!)... you can imagine a surreal situation... then the French captain ordered a counter attack, broke the people's line, used his sword and cut the other hand of the statue to free it from the one who holded it and the french from behind him dragged the statue quickly ner the ship where there were more soldiers with loaded guns that threatened to massacre all the people who were present in the port.
  
  All the above just show to our friend Gaiseric that it is not any nationalistic effort of the Greeks to relate to a past that does not beling to them, otherwise christian illiterate people would try and make money out of them, not giving their lifes to protect them. That is the truth and if you do not like it Gaiseric tough luck, what else can I say!
  For me there is no question of returning the Greek antiquities even if in Greece they built the best museum to host them. That is also part of our global history, the birth of modern archaiology was based on the practice of often violent plundering. It is more important for me to underline that side of the story than merely returning all antiquities.
  
  True that such people like Elgin with their crude manners gave birth to modern archaiology increasing the interest of people internationally for such issues but then one has to notice other sad stories that came as a side effect such as of that French (again!) higher military officer who in the 18th century landed in the lands of Lakonia (Southern Peloponesus) with a French army on the occasion of a local revolt or something (see yet another example of the inexistent Ottoman control, anyone oculd come in do whatever). Now this French ,and I forgot his name, officer had obviously deep psychological problems since he ordered his troops for unknown (obvioulsy personal) reasons to destroy as much as many antiquities as possible. Before he left he wrote in his diary "I have done it! I have destroyed even the last stone to 1000 pieces, there is nothing left to prove once that city existed"... He must had really big psychological problems and my sympathies go to the soldiers under his command doing such a meaningless for them but tedious task (and one that was catastrophic in heritage terms).

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• Message 10

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  Posted by Elistan (U1872011) on Sunday, 8th January 2006

  hahahah! You got my point Elistan!Β 
  
  No, seriously... do you want it?

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• Message 11

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  Posted by COPTICATHANASIUS (U2726860) on Sunday, 8th January 2006

  Champollion mentioned correctly the indifference of the average Egyptian to the monuments (though I am not 100% sure - I know that southern Kopts had a more sentimental relation with their ancient monuments perhaps since it is a population more directly descendant from ancient Egyptians than northern mainly arabic populations).).Β 
  
  Thanks, Nikolaos. If there is any nation/people who really care about Ancient Egyptian heritage it is the Copts though you don't hear from them. That is because they are not free. Although we are grateful that the Western countries have protected and kept a great deal of our antiquities (stolen or not), there would come a time when all of them need to be returned back to the direct descendants of the pharaohs. This time has not arrived yet. Until then, if any thing is returned back to Egypt let it be under strict condition that it is KEPT for humanity. I don't think the average Egyptian care more about these antiquities than the camels in Saudi (this is except that they get him tourism currency).

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• Message 12

  , in reply to message 6.

  Posted by Xenos5 (U1814603) on Sunday, 8th January 2006

  I think perhaps Gaiseric is making an historical point rather than a political one. If so, it seems an interesting one to me. The act of demanding "return" of an object should itself be seen as an historical event. It tells us interesting things about how a nation - or a faction, or a person - making ushc a claim sees itself and wishes to be seen. Which items are demanded back and which are not gives us clues as to how the players of the day wish to align themselves with history, culture and myth associated with previous eras. It also tells us a lot about the changing cultural value and political signficance of archaeological artefects to various interest groups over time.
  
  An example in the UK would be the Stone of Scone, the stone over which the monarchs of the Scots were crowned. Edward 1 took this stone and placed it beneath his coronation throne (in a specially consructed chamber) to signify his overlordship of the Scots. Subsequent English monarchs were thereafter symbolically claiming sovereignty over the Scots at their Coronations. With the resurgence of Scottish Nationalism in the 20th century it became a disputed artefact, and some Scots wanted it returned. It was even stolen at one point. It (or anther stone !) was returned to London. When Scotland gained devolution the Stone of Scone went North of the Border once more.
  
  An artecfact of no intrinsic value was once of great symbolic value, and became a symbol of modern political desire to associate a casue with an historical identity (or some would say a quasi-histrical, legendary identity).
  
  Xenos Gaiseric, again you are out of reality. It is actually the non-nationalists and mostly left wing people in Greece that have as a scope the return of the marbles to Greece. Extra-right wing people are nto so interested in that and are mostly interested in the everyday violations of the Greek air-space by "european" turkey, the doubting of the Greek lands, the possible threats organised around Greece by countries having populations that are 10 times more nationalist than Greece etc. The Elgineian marbles are just the justification of some to serve an as-if national cause - I name Melina Merkouri (a woman I do not respect at all), that mainly created this issue to disorientate the public from the real problems.
  
  Of course the Elginian marbles should be in Greece. But then Konstantinoupolis and Smyrna and all Cyprus should be in Greece so what? Where does it end? I hope you understand my point of view.Β 

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