Ancient and ArchaeologyÌý permalink
ancient mystery for the guys
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Message 1.Ìý
Posted by geniusbearhug (U2425598) on Tuesday, 20th December 2005
merry xmas to all here,i have decided to stick my neck out and give our resident experts the greatest mystery i have ever come across,it is called the peri reiss map,it is belived to have been drawn in around 10,000 years ago it has yeiled facts about the make up of the places drawn on the map at a time when it was impossible to draw the map accurately,it has been tested by the u s milatary and has been found to be genuine,can all the experts on natural history please explain the map to me,if you google it you will find a lot of sites on it but none can explain it,can anyone here explain it to me and the other history buffs here as if it is real then the history of the world is not as we have known it to be,so i hope i leave you with a good christmas puzzle,oh and by the way it has been proved beyond doubt that atlantis is really altepelico in latin america.
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Message 2
Posted by Thjodolf (U1900675) on Tuesday, 20th December 2005
Is the puzzle to uncover the correct spelling of said map?
Or perhaps how many people would do a 'Google' search?
Or even to see if anyone would ask the inevitable question: who has proved beyond doubt that Atlantis is anywhere in Latin America OR that it even existed at all?
Not intended to sound (too) facetious, but...
Merry Christmas to you all the same -
Message 3
Posted by Richie (U1238064) on Tuesday, 20th December 2005
not another thing the Americans are trying to steal
Atlantis isn't American it is an early European myth, it might have a factual base but even if it does it is still a european one -
Message 4
Posted by geniusbearhug (U2425598) on Tuesday, 20th December 2005
hello again guys, try the peri reis map as none of you have offered an explanation as to its origin or makers of the same said map,many have tried since it was found and to date none of the worlds best experts have solved it,it may contain an explanation of who mankind really is,was,and our view of history has changed a lot since the discorvery of the map.and to answer the atlantis question it has been proved that it is boliva beyond doubt,and again merry xmas to the very learned people that post here as some of your posts are an education to me so keep them coming guys and girls.
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Message 5
Posted by Thjodolf (U1900675) on Tuesday, 20th December 2005
Ok, clearly you have chosen to be as cryptic as possible. I tried a 'Google' search and a few spurious sites popped up: Peri Reis appeares to have been a 16th century Turkish mariner - so why does a 10,000 year old map have his name? I really think you should a little more direction as to which sites you suggest people look at. Once again you state that the Atlantis was in Latin America, yet offer no evidence. Perhaps you could provide a few links or titles of books and then we might be able to get started, otherwise it seems that this thread is doomed to fade away. You have made one 'remarkable' claim concerning Atlantis, and have mentioned a 10,000 year old map named after a 16th century Turk: please tell us how "the Atlantis question...has been proved [to be] Bolivia" and quite how it is "beyond doubt"? And please don't just state the same stuff again - evidence please
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Message 6
Posted by Richie (U1238064) on Wednesday, 21st December 2005
He might also want to explain how we know of the myth through the Egyptian priests of Sais, and Solon of Athens. How they describe a Mediterranean conflict between two states (Athens and Atlantis).
Because as far as I am aware the Egyptians were not the most adventurous of explorers. The Nile Valley as far as the 5th Cataract (so we have northern Sudan), the Levant, Mesopotamia, I’m not sure how much they explored Anatolia, but they were not ocean going sailors. They did not sail the Middle Sea in the way that the Greeks and other peoples did. There was no need. The Nile Valley provided everything they needed. The only produce it didn’t they got from Nubia.
So either we have a Bolivian ship sailing to the Middle Sea, or some lone Egyptian sailor deciding to sail completely beyond his horizon with no overall goal, and somehow not only makes it to South America, but survives, and manages to sail back to Egypt (all this without charts) and manages to record his story with the Priests at Sais, who then relate this to Solon several hundred years later, but they forget to mention anything about him or his voyage and transplant Atlantis from S.America to the Greek Sphere of the Ionian Sea
Do you have any idea how silly this sounds??
And you also expect us to believe that a 10,000 year old parchment map has survived intact?? In South America where conditions for such preservation are not available? When in Egypt (where conditions are favourable) papyrus just 3000/4000 years old is in the most delicate state??
Again, do you realise just how much this sounds like somebody’s idea of a hoax??? -
Message 7
Posted by Thjodolf (U1900675) on Wednesday, 21st December 2005
It is utter twaddle. What a shame our friend simply couldn't put his 'evidence' here for us to chortle over. I wonder if he believes that Doug McClure actually made it to Atlantis?
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Message 8
Posted by geniusbearhug (U2425598) on Wednesday, 21st December 2005
to answer the question,the egyptian priests are not only the proff but the pharoes are as well when the mummys were forenicly examined they were found to contain cocaine which only came from the boliviain fields also tobbaco was also found in egypt and this also only came from the boliva region can any of you explain that and the nine cities of atlantis were found already there are a lot of sites that explain this,the canals that ringed atlantis are there the gold and copper that plato spoke of are all found there,it is called altapelico in boliva and type the word altapelico not atlantis,the piri reis map was copied from older maps,dateing from the 11 century the same information can be found on a pillar in china,also you cannot explain everything that you do not understand by calling it a hoax,now take the soothers out of your mouths guys and explain the sites in boliva to me that the evidence says is atlantis.
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Message 9
Posted by Plancenoit (U1237957) on Wednesday, 21st December 2005
I can see what you are getting at geniusbearhug, but you're overstating the Bolivia theory a bit too much. A red herring??. Cocaine and nicotine in Egyptian mummies is a fact when they supposedly had no access to such things. Google for 'Balabanova' one of the experts on this.
Egyptian Lapis Lazuli beads were found at Stonehenge in the 1980's during excavations by Niall Sharples. The excavation reports are in print, and suggest that trade with Egypt was further reaching, and possibly much earlier than is consistent with current accepted chronology.
An Egyptian Princess 'Scota' is allegedly buried near Tralee, ROI. I say allegedly, because although the story is well known, the site has never been properly investigated so the true facts are yet to be discovered.
The chronology we are generally taught at schools, and that which you find in general history books is very questionable and i.m.o largely wrong.
The idea that Egyptians sailed to America is highly unlikely, although not impossible. Central/South American cultures and religions share a common thread in that "God" arrives by sea, from the direction of the sunrise, and brings wonderful things and ideas.
Seems like somebody got there long before everyone seems to think, or accept as comfortable. Remember the Mayans of Isla de Mujeres welcomed the Conquistadores as the Gods 'returning'.
The real questions are who got there first, when, and where the hell did the Piri Reis map come from, showing details of supposedly unknown shorelines???
Answer me some of these, and I'll gladly sacrifice my Uncle Ted's prize Charolais. -
Message 10
Posted by Elistan (U1872011) on Wednesday, 21st December 2005
geniusbearhug,
I googled the Peri Reis map, and I would be interested in how far do the list I have to go before I get to a site that isn't trying to incorporate its existence it some mystic/metaphysical/alien intervention interpretation of the world? I would like to get the facts, as dryly as possible, from a source that is not touting its own agenda.
I did some research outside of google on a site I knew from a paper I produced on the Hereford Mappamundi, and this is what i found:
No where in this monograph does it mention anything about accurate antarctic coastlines, but does contain a detailed discussion on its creation, its sources, its subsequent history, as well as a commentary on the legend keys utilised. If the legend held any water i am sure that it would have been reproduced in this work, even if to just be discounted.
Renaissance mapping owes a debt to both Hellenistic and Roman traditions, and one of the most significant is Pliny the Elder's geographies. His descriptions of the creatures that live on the landmass beyond the sea fed into the willing ness of Mapmakers to create a landmass within which to place these creatures. It is tied back into abcient anthropolgical beliefs of creation and centarlity of civilisation. The Hereford Mappamundi is a good example of the Roman tradition. Clearly the Peri Reis map is influencd by the rediscovery of Ptolmeic co-ordinational cartography, but it is possible that the 'Here be Dragons' tendency was still prevalent.
Considering that the Romanised Mappamundi were still being produced up into the latter part of the fifteenth century, and that the Peri Reis map is recognised as a blending of earlier works such a convergence of traditions is not entirely unlikely.
If you can provide me with a reputible source for the other traditions I will, in all good faith, look at it.
Elistan -
Message 11
Posted by Plancenoit (U1237957) on Wednesday, 21st December 2005
Cocaine and nicotine in Egyptian mummies is a fact when they supposedly had no access to such things. Google for 'Balabanova' one of the experts on this.Ìý
I should have clearly stated 'Dr.Svetlana Balabanova'. I googled 'Balabanova' and ended up with a Russian model agency. Very stimulating, but a bit wide of the mark. My apologies to anyone I may have unwittingly led astray. -
Message 12
Posted by cloudyj (U1773646) on Thursday, 22nd December 2005
merry xmas to all here,i have decided to stick my neck out and give our resident experts the greatest mystery i have ever come across,it is called the peri reiss map,it is belived to have been drawn in around 10,000 years ago it has yeiled facts about the make up of the places drawn on the map at a time when it was impossible to draw the map accurately,it has been tested by the u s milatary and has been found to be genuine,can all the experts on natural history please explain the map to me,if you google it you will find a lot of sites on it but none can explain it,can anyone here explain it to me and the other history buffs here as if it is real then the history of the world is not as we have known it to be,so i hope i leave you with a good christmas puzzle,oh and by the way it has been proved beyond doubt that atlantis is really altepelico in latin america. Ìý
The map is also believed to be only 600 years old. Just because someone claims that it's old doesn't make it so. The notes scribbled down the left side of the map itself are quite definite that it's not an old map. The cartographer idetifies himself and the date he drew it. "This map was drawn by Piri Ibn Haji Mehmed, known as the nephew of Kemal Reis, in Gallipoli, in the month of Muharrem of the year 919 (or in A.D. terms: between the 9th of March and the 7th of April of the year 1513)."
The notes also clearly state that the information has only recently been discovered.
Some claim the representation of Antarctica is good, but completely ignore the fact that much of the representation of the Americas is actually very poor, islands are way too large and in the wrong places and it completely fails to show Drake's Passage.
As to the claim that the US authorities have "tested" the map: in "Fingerprints of the Gods", Hancock states that the map was shown to a US Airforce cartographer who agreed that the bits of Antarctica looked like the under-ice coastline. However, this is merely commenting on the similarity. Without the ice (e.g. if Antarctica were further north) then the land mass would not be depressed and the coastline would represent that many meters below the current coastline. If the ice were melted then the sea level would be much higher and again the coastline would be completely different. You can't just remove the ice and claim they're the same coastline because the ice/sealevel actually determines the coastline.
It's a great map given the state of knowledge in 1513, but almoat certainly does not show an ice-free Antarctica. -
Message 13
Posted by Artorious (U1941655) on Thursday, 22nd December 2005
I think the map can be excluded from any debate about the antiquity of contact between Europe/Africa and the Americas. The evidence of Cociane and Nicotene may be harder to explain. It's obvious to anyone that the Victorians who handled these mummies were well into both Cocaine and Nicotene. They used to use Cocaine to lighten their skins for one!! But studies have proven that contamination cannot explain it all. We are left therefore with the possibility that trade did exist between the New World and Old in antiquity and was then lost, probably when the Carthaginians were defeated. I have a book called Fair Gods and Stone Faces(C.Irwin 1963) that details many links and evidence between the two regions in ancient times. I dont see it as being far fetched that there was contact pre columbus. It has already been proven that the Vikings probably got there so why not other ancient peoples?
One thing I have always pondered is the Irish myth of Cuchulaine dissapearing west over the sea and never returning. Strangley at the same time south Americans started the worship of Kukulcan the God who came over the water from the East. -
Message 14
Posted by Plancenoit (U1237957) on Thursday, 22nd December 2005
I dont see it as being far fetched that there was contact pre columbus. It has already been proven that the Vikings probably got there so why not other ancient peoples? Ìý
That statement made me think of the belief that the Templar Knights knew of the existence of America, and may have even been there. Where did the knowledge come from?? The now (in)famous Rosslyn chapel has carvings of a type of corn and fauna and certain animals which were supposedly discovered in America, but these carvings were made 50 years before Colombus even sailed. Much of this is denied for some strange reason, but there it is, plain as day. Trade, first hand experience, or just pure coincidence?? When the Pope outlawed the Templars, their fleet evaded capture by sailing westward to safety, navigating by what they called the Merica star, and 'secret maps'. Is it so inconceivable that some may have made the Atlantic crossing??
The early settlers of Roanoke and Jamestown noted how some Native Indians stood out from the others with light skin, blue eyes and uncanny resemblance to Europeans. They could also grow facial hair which was uncommon with the natives. This is obviously post-Columbus, but these people had been part of the 'Society' for more generations than anyone could remember, but they had lost their special status when the natives realised these 'half-breed' people ate, drank, slept etc and killed the same as them. They were just ordinary people. A legacy of Columbus, or something earlier? Syphilis was supposedly introduced to Europe after the return of Columbus from the America's, but this theory has been shot to pieces by the remains of Monks at Greyfriars in Gloucester (UK) who already had the disease long before Columbus sailed. (I need to check on that one. Its quite recent)
The Piri Reis map was dated around 1513 and taken from sources which appear to be a bit of a mystery even to those 'in the know' i.e Portugese, Genoans etc and some of the Arab world. Bearing in mind that Genoa and Portugal were solid Templar trading bases, and the Templar link with the 'Holy Lands' are an undisputed fact, is it not possible that knowledge of this New World was the (or part of) great Templar secret??
Claudius Ptolemy also tells us that Erastothenes had pretty much proved that the world was in fact round, although he had been largely disbelieved during his own lifetime. (250bc??) Surely the Templars and Columbus et al by their time, did not really believe the world was flat?? Why did the 'primitive' peoples of Central America make such huge leaps forward in astronomy, architecture and measurement of time, which was way ahead of their basic daily need?? More to it than harvest and planting times, I'm sure.
Too many questions and no clear answers. It makes my head spin trying to take it all in. I notice you have challenged some of the conventional chronology in other threads, Artorious. I enjoy challenging the 'Conventional' and I'm convinced one day someone will drop a bombshell on the accepted chronology, and the History 'establishment' will have no option but to sit up and take notice. -
Message 15
Posted by geniusbearhug (U2425598) on Saturday, 24th December 2005
i am sorry i wrote this thread as for some of the wild assumptions written here everyone from the knights templar to aliens,ok guys here it is
the knights are blamed for everything including the arc of the lost covanent,and the secret control of the world by the knights templar,america was not discovered by columbus it was discovered by irish monks and vikings many centuries before,the piri reis map is compiled from maps from everywhere,at some stage people may have either walked the coast line or somehow managed baloons or if i may say so kites to map the coastline,my next thread will be about ufo and the sightings that are unexplained by anyone so look forward to that and by the way merry christmas to all my learned friends here. -
Message 16
Posted by Plancenoit (U1237957) on Sunday, 25th December 2005
i am sorry i wrote this thread as for some of the wild assumptions written here everyone from the knights templar to aliens,ok guys here it is
the knights are blamed for everything including the arc of the lost covanent,and the secret control of the world by the knights templar,america was not discovered by columbus it was discovered by irish monks and vikings many centuries before,the piri reis map is compiled from maps from everywhere,at some stage people may have either walked the coast line or somehow managed baloons or if i may say so kites to map the coastline,my next thread will be about ufo and the sightings that are unexplained by anyone so look forward to that and by the way merry christmas to all my learned friends here. Ìý
With all due respect.....what did you expect with a question about the Piri Reis map?? I'm sure we all have different ideas/theories about such things, and as long as you have a balanced and informed idea on this subject (or any other) what's the problem??
If you can back up your argument with a bit of fact, then surely you have the right to be heard. Looking forward to your UFO thread with great interest.
In the meantime, all the best for Crimbo and the New Year. -
Message 17
Posted by Elistan (U1872011) on Monday, 26th December 2005
i am sorry i wrote this thread as for some of the wild assumptions written here everyone from the knights templar to aliens,ok guys here it is
the knights are blamed for everything including the arc of the lost covanent,and the secret control of the world by the knights templar,america was not discovered by columbus it was discovered by irish monks and vikings many centuries before,the piri reis map is compiled from maps from everywhere,at some stage people may have either walked the coast line or somehow managed baloons or if i may say so kites to map the coastline,my next thread will be about ufo and the sightings that are unexplained by anyone so look forward to that and by the way merry christmas to all my learned friends here. Ìý
I'm afraid I would have to second Placenoit on this one. You initiated this thread on the premise of a 10,000 year old map. If you initiate any conversation from such a radical stance you must being willing to follow where the winds of theory and speculation drag you. If the map is indeed 10,000 years old (which I truly doubt) then everyone and anyone in history had have had a hand in its story. If the map is only 600 years old, then the query becomes one of which sources were used. I think the antarctic element has been adequately debunked (in that you can't just remove the ice and have the same coastline). However, for a map that was constructed from secondary sources (by the author's admission) so soon after the 'offical' discovery is a curiousity, and perhaps we should be more interested in whether the map shows evidence of more expeditions earlier on than previously thought.
But ultimately, geniusbearhug, you started the more radical train of thought that has been quite interestingly explored in this thread, and therefore you should not be complaining about it.
Elistan -
Message 18
Posted by jberie (U1767537) on Tuesday, 27th December 2005
I think the map can be excluded from any debate about the antiquity of contact between Europe/Africa and the Americas. The evidence of Cociane and Nicotene may be harder to explain. It's obvious to anyone that the Victorians who handled these mummies were well into both Cocaine and Nicotene. They used to use Cocaine to lighten their skins for one!! But studies have proven that contamination cannot explain it all. We are left therefore with the possibility that trade did exist between the New World and Old in antiquity and was then lost, probably when the Carthaginians were defeated. I have a book called Fair Gods and Stone Faces(C.Irwin 1963) that details many links and evidence between the two regions in ancient times. I dont see it as being far fetched that there was contact pre columbus. It has already been proven that the Vikings probably got there so why not other ancient peoples?
One thing I have always pondered is the Irish myth of Cuchulaine dissapearing west over the sea and never returning. Strangley at the same time south Americans started the worship of Kukulcan the God who came over the water from the East.
That is some new info for me--Kukulcan.
Prof. Barry Fell makes, what I thought to be, a good case for Euro-American contact in his book,"America B.C." Simon and Schuster 1989.
Ìý
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