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Tonight's Rome episode: Did Caesar go to a Ptolomic Egypt or an Arab one?
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Message 1.
Posted by COPTICATHANASIUS (U2726860) on Wednesday, 14th December 2005
To convince the viewer that that place to which Caesar went was really Egypt the producer uses a combination of images depicting camels, dates trees, people wearing turbans, Arabic backgroung noice, and even the papyrus handed by Septemius (the guy who killed Pompey) seemed to have been full of Arabic script (although this was not very clear).
One gets the impression that he was in Islamic Egypt (had it not been for the prostitutic Cleopatra) and not Egypt BC.
While the camel was introduced to Egypt in the Ptolemic period and the dates trees have been there since Pharaonic days, they were not regular and prominent features of Egypt until the Arabs occuped it (they were important environmental bits to them in their Hijaz area from where they had come). But what cannot be excused is the background noice which was in Arab dialect. To their credit I could not hear "yalla yalla" or "imshi, imshi" which most producers of films set in an Egyptian background are very fond of!
The 鶹Լ should do better considering the huge money they force us to pay.Link to this forum: Tonight's Rome episode: Did Caesar go to a Ptolomic Egypt or an Arab one?
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Message 2
Posted by lolbeeble (U1662865) on Wednesday, 14th December 2005
Calm down dear, its only a television programme. Nevermind whether or not it is accurate it is more likely they are there to suggest the location as I'm guessing they didn't film on the Nile.
Link to this forum: Tonight's Rome episode: Did Caesar go to a Ptolomic Egypt or an Arab one?
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Message 3
Posted by COPTICATHANASIUS (U2726860) on Thursday, 15th December 2005
It doesn't seem like they wanted us to think it 'just a TV prpgramme' after all the advertisement. Don't take me wrong. I wait for Rome from Wednesday to Wednesday. I really enjoyed it. But there are few problems with it and one of them is what I had pointed. Some accuracy in the geographical and political setting is required. They don't need to film in Egypt to get it right. In fact if they do so, they are most likely to get it even more wrong. Egypt of the Pharaohs and the Ptolomies is different from Arab Egypt. They could get it right by paying a little bit of attention to the detail in this matter. No, people with turbans on their heads, camels, dates trees, Arabic dialect as background noice and a papyrus written in an Arabic script (although the latter was not very clear), all of these, do not respect the intelligence of the viewers.
Link to this forum: Tonight's Rome episode: Did Caesar go to a Ptolomic Egypt or an Arab one?
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Message 4
Posted by Anglo-Norman (U1965016) on Thursday, 15th December 2005
There are all sorts of historical errors in Rome. Apart from the mail armour, the equipment of the soldiers is dreadful. The sleeveless tunics with eagles on the front are ludicrous. Pompey is usually pronounced Pompee, not Pompay (which is how the city is pronounced). Why do most of them have Latin names, but Pompeius Magnus is Pompey Magnus, Gaius Iulius Caesar (pronounced Yoo-lee-us Kaisar) is Jooleeus Seezar, and Marcus Antonius is Mark Anthony? As the Radio Times points out, if they pray in Latin, what are they speaking the rest of the time?
Link to this forum: Tonight's Rome episode: Did Caesar go to a Ptolomic Egypt or an Arab one?
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Message 5
Posted by Anglo-Norman (U1965016) on Thursday, 15th December 2005
Oh yes, and the cast are inconsistent in their pronunciation - Vorenus is sometimes referred to as Vorinius.
Link to this forum: Tonight's Rome episode: Did Caesar go to a Ptolomic Egypt or an Arab one?
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Message 6
Posted by Simon21 (U1338658) on Thursday, 15th December 2005
Worse than these points, there are the social anachronisms.
The focus on women as political figures, for example, is ridiculous and raises the point of whether it is in fact possible to depict Roman society to a modern audienceLink to this forum: Tonight's Rome episode: Did Caesar go to a Ptolomic Egypt or an Arab one?
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Message 7
Posted by Champollion (U2688478) on Thursday, 15th December 2005
Bring back "I Claudius", creaky studio sets and all. Much better than this big budget tosh made to please a US audience with the attention span of gnats.
Link to this forum: Tonight's Rome episode: Did Caesar go to a Ptolomic Egypt or an Arab one?
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Message 8
Posted by DaveMBA (U1360771) on Thursday, 15th December 2005
Gave up after the second episode, but is there any bu##ery in it (given the many sex scecnmes). This is a ditty sung about Caesar by his men:
Gallias Caesar subegit, Nicomedes Caesarem:
ecce Caesar nunc triumphat qui subegit Gallias,
Nicomedes non triumphat qui subegit Caesarem.Link to this forum: Tonight's Rome episode: Did Caesar go to a Ptolomic Egypt or an Arab one?
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Message 9
Posted by Mr Pedant (U2464726) on Thursday, 15th December 2005
Gave up after the second episode, but is there any bu##ery in it (given the many sex scecnmes). This is a ditty sung about Caesar by his men:
Gallias Caesar subegit, Nicomedes Caesarem:
ecce Caesar nunc triumphat qui subegit Gallias,
Nicomedes non triumphat qui subegit Caesarem.
Wasn't there a rumour that he went to bed with a gay king from Asia Minor to secure a deal that would get Rome a fleet of ships?
I love the show, despite its flaws, it's really helping me get my eye into a fascinating part of history.
And I love the 'unneccessary bits' as my Mum would call them.Link to this forum: Tonight's Rome episode: Did Caesar go to a Ptolomic Egypt or an Arab one?
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Message 10
Posted by COPTICATHANASIUS (U2726860) on Thursday, 15th December 2005
I also think that its role has been to "get my eye into a fascinating part of history," if this means putting flesh and life into 'abstract' personalities which we read about in the history of that period but forget about most of them, or more accurately their roles in the saga, only a few days after. Now I can differentiate between Pompey, Ceasar, Mark Anthony, Octavian (Augustus), Cicero, and Cleopatra and their complicated relationship to each other!
Link to this forum: Tonight's Rome episode: Did Caesar go to a Ptolomic Egypt or an Arab one?
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Message 11
Posted by Champollion (U2688478) on Thursday, 15th December 2005
Shakespeare did it better - and didn't even take as long.
Link to this forum: Tonight's Rome episode: Did Caesar go to a Ptolomic Egypt or an Arab one?
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Message 12
Posted by hathor_101 (U2740307) on Thursday, 15th December 2005
i think he went to a ptolemy's egypt, because isnt this set after alexander the great? and it is romans isnt it?
Link to this forum: Tonight's Rome episode: Did Caesar go to a Ptolomic Egypt or an Arab one?
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Message 13
Posted by Champollion (U2688478) on Thursday, 15th December 2005
But I think his original point was that there was very little attempt to make the Egypt presented on screen anything like Egypt of that period - basically, they didn't speak Arabic then.
Link to this forum: Tonight's Rome episode: Did Caesar go to a Ptolomic Egypt or an Arab one?
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Message 14
Posted by Richie (U1238064) on Friday, 16th December 2005
Gave up after the second episode, but is there any bu##ery in it (given the many sex scecnmes). This is a ditty sung about Caesar by his men:
Gallias Caesar subegit, Nicomedes Caesarem:
ecce Caesar nunc triumphat qui subegit Gallias,
Nicomedes non triumphat qui subegit Caesarem.
Wasn't there a rumour that he went to bed with a gay king from Asia Minor to secure a deal that would get Rome a fleet of ships?
I love the show, despite its flaws, it's really helping me get my eye into a fascinating part of history.
And I love the 'unneccessary bits' as my Mum would call them.
thats what the latin song refers toLink to this forum: Tonight's Rome episode: Did Caesar go to a Ptolomic Egypt or an Arab one?
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Message 15
Posted by arianneweaver (U2757896) on Friday, 16th December 2005
Hi!
new to this mssg board, but I think that the papyrus was in Demotic script - the popular and easier to read script which had replaced heiroglyphs by Ptolemaic times. At least, I think it was supposed to be!
I'm not so fussed about most of the pronunciation, as everyone generally calls Caesar "See-zar" anyway, but I agree with you about the name that should be "Pompee" and I'm fed up of seeing the Romans with stirrups!
ArianneweaverLink to this forum: Tonight's Rome episode: Did Caesar go to a Ptolomic Egypt or an Arab one?
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Message 16
Posted by COPTICATHANASIUS (U2726860) on Saturday, 17th December 2005
No I don't think it was demotic. And it was not supposed to be! It was supposed to be either Greek or Latin. And since the papyrus in the film was handed to Caesar, and read by him, it should have been in Latin as I don't think Caesar knew Greek.. At lease, I think he was supposed not to!
Hi!
new to this mssg board, but I think that the papyrus was in Demotic script - the popular and easier to read script which had replaced heiroglyphs by Ptolemaic times. At least, I think it was supposed to be!
I'm not so fussed about most of the pronunciation, as everyone generally calls Caesar "See-zar" anyway, but I agree with you about the name that should be "Pompee" and I'm fed up of seeing the Romans with stirrups!
ArianneweaverLink to this forum: Tonight's Rome episode: Did Caesar go to a Ptolomic Egypt or an Arab one?
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Message 17
Posted by Anglo-Norman (U1965016) on Saturday, 17th December 2005
<quote user='arianneweaver' userid='2757896'
I'm fed up of seeing the Romans with stirrups!
Arianneweaver</quote>
Welcome! Apparently the stirrup thing was because of Health and Safety requirements, though strangely they didn't seem concerned about the health and safety aspect of cutting someone's head off!
'Alexander' had stirrups too, but they made a better job of hiding them.Link to this forum: Tonight's Rome episode: Did Caesar go to a Ptolomic Egypt or an Arab one?
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Message 18
Posted by bella_dona (U2143247) on Saturday, 17th December 2005
Hi ariannneweaver,
This is the first time on this board for me as well. I too have been watching Rome and have been noticing the little inconsistencies/ inaccuracies. I think that it has become all part of the sport now when watching programmes of this nature.
At least it is not as bad as some of historical dramas/movies etc. that have been produced. I once spied the use of a fork (four pronged modern kind before anyone pulls me up on this)in a programme that was supposedly set in the the 12 century. LOL
The problems, I think start when inaccuracies creep into so called documentaries.
Rant over, still enjoying Rome all the same.
Bella_Dona
Ps I had a giggle to myself first time I watched, with the image in my head of the Victorians trying to scrub all that grafitti off before they could do any antiquities tours!Link to this forum: Tonight's Rome episode: Did Caesar go to a Ptolomic Egypt or an Arab one?
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Message 19
Posted by Richie (U1238064) on Saturday, 17th December 2005
No I don't think it was demotic. And it was not supposed to be! It was supposed to be either Greek or Latin. And since the papyrus in the film was handed to Caesar, and read by him, it should have been in Latin as I don't think Caesar knew Greek.. At lease, I think he was supposed not to!
Hi!
new to this mssg board, but I think that the papyrus was in Demotic script - the popular and easier to read script which had replaced heiroglyphs by Ptolemaic times. At least, I think it was supposed to be!
I'm not so fussed about most of the pronunciation, as everyone generally calls Caesar "See-zar" anyway, but I agree with you about the name that should be "Pompee" and I'm fed up of seeing the Romans with stirrups!
Arianneweaver
Caesar should have been comfortable with Greek as no self respecting Roman Aristocrat could be considered civilised if he had "no Greek"Link to this forum: Tonight's Rome episode: Did Caesar go to a Ptolomic Egypt or an Arab one?
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Message 20
Posted by COPTICATHANASIUS (U2726860) on Saturday, 17th December 2005
He might have known Greek but I am not sure. Saying he knew Greek is of course different from saying he should, or would be expected to, have knowm Greek. Are there any historians specialised in this period to tell us? Interesting subject! No I don't think it was demotic. And it was not supposed to be! It was supposed to be either Greek or Latin. And since the papyrus in the film was handed to Caesar, and read by him, it should have been in Latin as I don't think Caesar knew Greek.. At lease, I think he was supposed not to!
Hi!
new to this mssg board, but I think that the papyrus was in Demotic script - the popular and easier to read script which had replaced heiroglyphs by Ptolemaic times. At least, I think it was supposed to be!
I'm not so fussed about most of the pronunciation, as everyone generally calls Caesar "See-zar" anyway, but I agree with you about the name that should be "Pompee" and I'm fed up of seeing the Romans with stirrups!
Arianneweaver
Caesar should have been comfortable with Greek as no self respecting Roman Aristocrat could be considered civilised if he had "no Greek"Link to this forum: Tonight's Rome episode: Did Caesar go to a Ptolomic Egypt or an Arab one?
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Message 21
Posted by Nik (U1777139) on Saturday, 17th December 2005
Roman patricians spoke and wrote only Greek till the late 6th century and Latin as a 2nd language, some say that was not imitation of their 'cooler' southern neighbours but an effort to maintain their partial ancestral origins (by Dorian greeks). Do not forget that many patrician families had greek names such as Gaius, Graechi and so on - some even imply that the difference between patricians and plebeians might had been initially a tribal also (I also support that because it is logical).
Of course, after centuries of ruling among italic tribes and successive reforms (republic years, the army reforms etc.), Greek was in no sense a national language but it was being a standard part of Latin education and no self respecting patrician would enter public life without being able to talk and write in Greek bad or good. A message even a lengthy one would not be difficult for Ceasar to read.
PS: Do not forget that the 2/3 of the empire spoke Greek and no Latin, a language which was restricted in the underdeveloped west.
Now, about the issue of Egyptians depicted as more or less arabic I also agree but then I must emphasise that the wrongest depiction is that of Cleopatra. She was no 'prostitutic' or anything like that. She was extremely clever, etremely educated and fighting for her life as well as for her kingdom to which she had been a terrific leader managing to bring the Egyptian kingdom from a disastrous financial state to become equally or more rich than Rome itself that controlled alread all Mediterranean and it was that that finally dragged Romans in (they would not allow a second rich kingdom in the neighbourhood would they?). Cleopatra was no arabic not easterner and no Egyptian. She was Greek as much as any other Greek mentioned in history.Link to this forum: Tonight's Rome episode: Did Caesar go to a Ptolomic Egypt or an Arab one?
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Message 22
Posted by Richie (U1238064) on Monday, 19th December 2005
Greek was in no sense a national language but it was being a standard part of Latin education and no self respecting patrician would enter public life without being able to talk and write in Greek bad or good. A message even a lengthy one would not be difficult for Ceasar to read.
PS: Do not forget that the 2/3 of the empire spoke Greek and no Latin, a language which was restricted in the underdeveloped west.
Now, about the issue of Egyptians depicted as more or less arabic I also agree but then I must emphasise that the wrongest depiction is that of Cleopatra. She was no 'prostitutic' or anything like that. She was extremely clever, etremely educated and fighting for her life as well as for her kingdom to which she had been a terrific leader managing to bring the Egyptian kingdom from a disastrous financial state to become equally or more rich than Rome itself that controlled alread all Mediterranean and it was that that finally dragged Romans in (they would not allow a second rich kingdom in the neighbourhood would they?). Cleopatra was no arabic not easterner and no Egyptian. She was Greek as much as any other Greek mentioned in history.
I agree with Nik from “Greek was in no sense” onwards. The first half of your message Nik I’m not so sure I could agree with.
RichLink to this forum: Tonight's Rome episode: Did Caesar go to a Ptolomic Egypt or an Arab one?
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Message 23
Posted by COPTICATHANASIUS (U2726860) on Monday, 19th December 2005
Cleopatra was Greek but in many ways Egyptianised. Anyway, the picture which the Roman historians and writers, like Cicero, have left us about her is extremely distorted and seen only from the angle of her relationship with Caesar, Mark Anthony and Octavian. She was a whore to them and nothing else. The series Rome, I am afraid, follow the Roman depiction of her.
But the Ptolomies, particularly after Ptolomy III, were weak, corrupt and oppressive. And Cleopatra was not an exception.Link to this forum: Tonight's Rome episode: Did Caesar go to a Ptolomic Egypt or an Arab one?
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Message 24
Posted by Stoggler (U1647829) on Monday, 19th December 2005
Greek was in no sense a national language but it was being a standard part of Latin education and no self respecting patrician would enter public life without being able to talk and write in Greek bad or good. A message even a lengthy one would not be difficult for Ceasar to read.
PS: Do not forget that the 2/3 of the empire spoke Greek and no Latin, a language which was restricted in the underdeveloped west.
Now, about the issue of Egyptians depicted as more or less arabic I also agree but then I must emphasise that the wrongest depiction is that of Cleopatra. She was no 'prostitutic' or anything like that. She was extremely clever, etremely educated and fighting for her life as well as for her kingdom to which she had been a terrific leader managing to bring the Egyptian kingdom from a disastrous financial state to become equally or more rich than Rome itself that controlled alread all Mediterranean and it was that that finally dragged Romans in (they would not allow a second rich kingdom in the neighbourhood would they?). Cleopatra was no arabic not easterner and no Egyptian. She was Greek as much as any other Greek mentioned in history.
I agree with Nik from “Greek was in no sense” onwards. The first half of your message Nik I’m not so sure I could agree with.
Rich
According to Suetonius, Caesar's last words were not "Et tu, Brute", but "Kai su, teknon?" (Gr., "Even you, my child?") - so it would seem that he did know Greek!Link to this forum: Tonight's Rome episode: Did Caesar go to a Ptolomic Egypt or an Arab one?
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Message 25
Posted by dwrmatt (U1984005) on Thursday, 29th December 2005
Going back to the song sung at Caesar's triumph, I proudly as my own a play on words that capture the Latin:
Caesar overcame the Gauls, Nicomedes **** over Caesar!!
Though I'm not sure the English past tenses of the two verbs are the sameLink to this forum: Tonight's Rome episode: Did Caesar go to a Ptolomic Egypt or an Arab one?
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Message 26
Posted by AlwaysThatWay (U1702812) on Thursday, 29th December 2005
She was a whore to them and nothing else. The series Rome, I am afraid, follow the Roman depiction of her.
But the Ptolomies, particularly after Ptolomy III, were weak, corrupt and oppressive. And Cleopatra was not an exception.
Not certain why you would say this.
Caesar needed Cleopatra's support to gain control of Egypt. Egypt, and its ready supply of grain more likely would have been a great aid to Caesar's efforts to consolidate his power base in Rome, had he not been assasinated. It is not clear what Caesar intended for Caesarion's future. No doubt he thought of his son more highly than the offspring of a whore.
Mark Antony's position was even more dependant upon Cleopatra. After Octavius deposed Lepidus, Mark Antony was gravely dependant upon Cleopatra's ability to get Egyptian support. Unfortunately for them both, Antony did not have the time or resources to craft the Egyptian numbers into a suitable fighting force. It does not mean he thought ill of Egypt's queen, however.Link to this forum: Tonight's Rome episode: Did Caesar go to a Ptolomic Egypt or an Arab one?
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Message 27
Posted by Richie (U1238064) on Friday, 30th December 2005
Caesar needed Cleopatra's support to gain control of Egypt. Egypt, and its ready supply of grain more likely would have been a great aid to Caesar's efforts to consolidate his power base in Rome, had he not been assasinated. It is not clear what Caesar intended for Caesarion's future. No doubt he thought of his son more highly than the offspring of a whore.
It was this Egyptian support that helped advance his assasination. People were genuinely concerned that Caesar's aim was Imperial Purple rather than the traditional Consulship or 6 month dictatorship followed by retirement. Some of Caesars enemies had made so many attempts to break him in the courts that they felt that he had to be going for the throne of Rome rather than the curile chair.
As for Caesarion's future, it was a purely Egytpian one. He had no rights as a Roman citizen. He was the son of a foreign potantate and once raised to the rank of King he would not be able to enter Rome anywayLink to this forum: Tonight's Rome episode: Did Caesar go to a Ptolomic Egypt or an Arab one?
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Message 28
Posted by AlwaysThatWay (U1702812) on Friday, 30th December 2005
It was this Egyptian support that helped advance his assasination. People were genuinely concerned that Caesar's aim was Imperial Purple rather than the traditional Consulship or 6 month dictatorship followed by retirement. Some of Caesars enemies had made so many attempts to break him in the courts that they felt that he had to be going for the throne of Rome rather than the curile chair.
As for Caesarion's future, it was a purely Egytpian one. He had no rights as a Roman citizen. He was the son of a foreign potantate and once raised to the rank of King he would not be able to enter Rome anyway
Excellent points.
Quite clearly, Caesar was involved in a chess game with his rivals which he ultimately lost. Egypt greatly enhanced his wealth and power base. Had he been able to control his rivals, and, as some historians suggest he was planning, move against the Parthians, Caesar may have been able to accomplish what Octavian ultimately did. (of course this assumes Caesar actually wanted imperial power)
Caesar may have been happy to leave Caesarion in charge in Egypt. Obviously, any effort to bring Caesarion to Rome would have been quite risky, as Antony and Cleopatra learned to their (and Caesarion's) detriment when they lauded him as an equal heir to Caesar.Link to this forum: Tonight's Rome episode: Did Caesar go to a Ptolomic Egypt or an Arab one?
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Message 29
Posted by Richie (U1238064) on Friday, 30th December 2005
Excellent points.
Quite clearly, Caesar was involved in a chess game with his rivals which he ultimately lost. Egypt greatly enhanced his wealth and power base. Had he been able to control his rivals, and, as some historians suggest he was planning, move against the Parthians, Caesar may have been able to accomplish what Octavian ultimately did. (of course this assumes Caesar actually wanted imperial power)
Caesar may have been happy to leave Caesarion in charge in Egypt. Obviously, any effort to bring Caesarion to Rome would have been quite risky, as Antony and Cleopatra learned to their (and Caesarion's) detriment when they lauded him as an equal heir to Caesar.
Thank you for your kind remarks. I agree that had Caesar been able to confound his rivals and survive long enough for mount the Parthian expedition then quite obviously history would have been re-written, but I think that from what I have read and understood about Caesar is that he didn't understand Imperial Power in the same way the Octavian did. I honestly think that even if he had survived assasination and the Parthians then he would not have allowed (assuming the Senate was docile enough to offer it to him) any imperial purple. Dictatorship for life I could see him trying, but not in such a way as to let his physical heirs automaticaly inheirit his position. He was a patrican Roman for that to be his goal. But that is my personal opinion. That is why he didn't want Caesarion to have a Roman future but an Egyptian one, because if he had a Roman one then the temptation for abuse would be that much strongerLink to this forum: Tonight's Rome episode: Did Caesar go to a Ptolomic Egypt or an Arab one?
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