Ancient and ArchaeologyΜύ permalink
Did the Romans make it to Ireland
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Message 1.Μύ
Posted by Elistan (U1872011) on Thursday, 1st December 2005
I have heard about a trading post around Dalkey (just south of Dublin) that may have been established at the height of Roman Britain. Does anyone know anything about this?
Elistan -
Message 2
Posted by TonyG (U1830405) on Friday, 2nd December 2005
I can't comment on that specifically, but I did once have a map of Britain which marked where Roman artefacts had been found, and there were certainly some in Ireland. This doe snot mean, of course, that the Romans themselves were in Ireland, but it is not at all impossible. The Romans used their navy to support the army on its marches into Scotland, and their is no reason why they could not have crossed the Irish Sea.
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Message 3
Posted by Elistan (U1872011) on Friday, 2nd December 2005
On that, I know that Chester started out as a Roman town, but did they make it the whole way through Wales, or did they largely ignore the interior?
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Message 4
Posted by TonyG (U1830405) on Friday, 2nd December 2005
The pretty much ignored the interior of Wales, Cornwall and the Highlands of Scotland, largely because there was nothing much of value there that they wanted. That is not to say they didn't sometimes send troops there to keep the natives in line, they just didn't stay permanently.
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Message 5
Posted by Plancenoit (U1237957) on Friday, 2nd December 2005
The Romans almost certainly did make it to Ireland, but not a great deal of evidence remains. I suppose it's one of those situations where you have to apply that old rule 'absence of evidence is not necessarily evidence of absence'. The trading post near Dublin you mention is probably the best well known, but the lack of anything more substantial suggests there was not a very big Roman presence, unless the structures were only temporary. Of course, there may be still be something waiting to be discovered...I'm not too sure of any contemporary written accounts of Roman activity in Ireland, but it would be worth following up.
Just to mention the subject of Wales, the Romans pursued the "locals" and their Druids as far as Anglesey, so there's little doubt they were familiar with Wales. I tend to agree with the previous comment that with the exception of some Roman-British settlements they may not have bothered much with central Wales, but there are some good Roman sites in South Wales, Caerwent for example. What we now recognise as the border with Wales such as the Offa's Dyke area has evidence of Roman activity, and the Forest of Dean shows evidence of mining. I would be interested to know if the Romans did any mining in Wales, and if they were aware of Welsh gold. -
Message 6
Posted by ap Tom (U1380901) on Friday, 2nd December 2005
Lead, copper, iron and gold were all mined by the Romans.
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Message 7
Posted by ap Tom (U1380901) on Friday, 2nd December 2005
... in Wales. Sorry, I hit the 'send' button by mistake. For gold mining you could try Googling 'Dolaucothi'. There was a lot of Roman activity in Wales, but as has been poited out elsewhere, there was less in the central mountainous area.
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Message 8
Posted by priscilla (U1793779) on Friday, 2nd December 2005
To Tony G message 46 - I think
So what did the Romans want? I've often wondered. I could only assume that for the main part it was land to settle ie ex militia and such. Otherwise did we have much that the Empire needed? -
Message 9
Posted by ap Tom (U1380901) on Friday, 2nd December 2005
On Ireland, I recall several articles by Richard Warner (who used to be at the Ulster Museum) on the subject of Romans in Ireland.
Tacitus refers to Agricola claiming that he could conquer Ireland with a single legion. He was in Scotland at the time I seem to remember, looking out towards Ulster. I don't think Wales has much to do with it, although trade between Roman Wales and Ireland would seem probable. -
Message 10
Posted by TonyG (U1830405) on Friday, 2nd December 2005
To Tony G message 46 - I think
So what did the Romans want? I've often wondered. I could only assume that for the main part it was land to settle ie ex militia and such. Otherwise did we have much that the Empire needed?Μύ
Initially, the Emperor Claudius wanted a victory to cement his position. He came to power in rather unusual circumstances and was not initially popular. Britain was an easy target. I think (and I am relying on memory here) the justification was that a British tribal leader who had been ousted, went to the Romans seeking help. Julius Caesar had previously used the excuse that the Britons were encuraging the Gauls to rebel. Whatever the excuse, the Romans went all out for conquest from the start.
They were obvously after slaves and whatever mineral wealth they could get but the prime reason was so that Claudius could be portrayed as a conqueror. I'm fairly sure he even came over to Britain himself (with some elephants, I think) - once the south of England was safely conquered anyway. -
Message 11
Posted by ap Tom (U1380901) on Friday, 2nd December 2005
They were obvously after slaves and whatever mineral wealth they could get but the prime reason was so that Claudius could be portrayed as a conqueror. I'm fairly sure he even came over to Britain himself (with some elephants, I think) - once the south of England was safely conquered anyway.
Μύ
Yes, once the fighting was over, Claudius turned up to receive the surrender of the British kings. He entered Colchester with as much pomp and ceremony as possible - including, as you say, elephants. -
Message 12
Posted by Plancenoit (U1237957) on Friday, 2nd December 2005
On the subject of Elephants and my earlier reference to Romans in the Forest of Dean and on the Welsh borders, the local tribe in the Forest at the time of the Roman occupation were one of those which actually put up some pretty stiff resistance to the Romans, at least in the early years (their name escapes me again at present). The presence of luxurious villas like the one at Lydney suggests that the Romans eventually felt comfortable and safe enough to build such places, and the local population must have eventually accepted the Roman rule. An interesting point is that in the mud banks of the Severn, occasionally bones turn up which can only have come from Elephants. Elephants in the Forest of Dean!! Ridiculous!! everyone cries. However, with a little bit of imagination, it's not difficult to accept that the Romans may well have used a few Elephants to cross the Severn and terrify the locals who undoubtedly would have never seen anything like it before. I suppose its like bringing a modern Tank to face stone slings and spears. In fact the Romans felt so comfortable in Gloucestershire and the Cotswolds that the place is chocked full of Roman sites and Villas. Still, if they WERE faced with Elephants, its hardly surprising they gave in!! Incidentally, Thank you for website suggestion regarding Roman mining in Wales etc. Very grateful.
They were obvously after slaves and whatever mineral wealth they could get but the prime reason was so that Claudius could be portrayed as a conqueror. I'm fairly sure he even came over to Britain himself (with some elephants, I think) - once the south of England was safely conquered anyway.
Μύ
Yes, once the fighting was over, Claudius turned up to receive the surrender of the British kings. He entered Colchester with as much pomp and ceremony as possible - including, as you say, elephants.Μύ -
Message 13
Posted by TonyG (U1830405) on Friday, 2nd December 2005
I think the tribe you are thinking of was the Silures. Caratacus joined them for a while to continue his resistance struggle, but they were overcome eventually.
Thanks for th einfo on elephant bones. I didn;t know about that. -
Message 14
Posted by Plancenoit (U1237957) on Friday, 2nd December 2005
Yes I'm sure you're right Tony. Silures rings a bell, but I get mixed up with Durotriges, Dobunni, Silures etc etc, and so I tend to omit the name and refer to them as the "locals". When I first heard of the elephant bones around the Severn I was one of the many who just laughed the whole thing off as some kind of hoax, but it is a fact. No-one really knows where they all came from, but the dating of them (when possible) broadly fits in with the Roman occupation, and seems to be the only logical explanation.
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Message 15
Posted by ap Tom (U1380901) on Saturday, 3rd December 2005
On that, I know that Chester started out as a Roman town, but did they make it the whole way through Wales, or did they largely ignore the interior? Μύ
I know I am being pedantic again, but Chester was actually a legionary fortress, rather than a town, and its garrison seems to have been responsible for the vexallations which in turn garrisoned forts in central Wales. However, prior to Chester, I think the base for operations in Central Wales was at Wroxeter. I would have to check on this, but even the post-Flavian garrison of Wales was somewhat numerous in Mid-Wales. -
Message 16
Posted by Lt_Henson (U2436367) on Sunday, 4th December 2005
In response to the original question...
YES!!!! there was a roman fort 15 miles NORTH of Dublin.
The site was around in AD 79 till at least AD 138. these dates provided by pottery, coins and even jewellry. It was originally found in 1980 but was kept secret for 10 YEARS while they worked on it to keep site seers away as the fort is a the center of what appeared to be a 40 acre town.
Hope it helps! -
Message 17
Posted by Elistan (U1872011) on Monday, 5th December 2005
Lt_Henson,
Cheers. Do you know the name of the area by any chance? I knew that something had been discovered near Dublin, but I thought is was to the South, so thanks for the correction.
Elistan -
Message 18
Posted by SHOUTINGman (U1918139) on Tuesday, 6th December 2005
On Ireland, I recall several articles by Richard Warner (who used to be at the Ulster Museum) on the subject of Romans in Ireland.
Tacitus refers to Agricola claiming that he could conquer Ireland with a single legion. He was in Scotland at the time I seem to remember, looking out towards Ulster. I don't think Wales has much to do with it, although trade between Roman Wales and Ireland would seem probable.Μύ
But then Tacitus would say that of Agricola. He was his uncle so Tacitus' bias always has to be considered. He said this against the backdrop of Agricola being recalled to Rome I believe, something he wasn't happy about and so stated that he could have conquered the whole of Britain had he been allowed to stay. -
Message 19
Posted by Lt_Henson (U2436367) on Tuesday, 20th December 2005
I think its' called DRUMANAGH.
Took a while to remember sorry...
hope it helps.
merry xmas -
Message 20
Posted by LondonPlane (U2356735) on Friday, 23rd December 2005
This following might help:
The Segontium Roman fort (Caernarfon) was an auxiliary fort built by the Romans when they spread their conquest of Britain into Wales, and dates back to 77 AD. Although it was a remote outpost, it is one of the most well known Roman sites in Britain and attracts thousands of visitors each year. From records, it is clear that it held a regiment of up to 1,000 auxiliary soldiers until about 394 AD. These troops were non citizens who would be in the service of the Roman army for 25 years. It was a very strategic establishment, as it controlled access to Angelsey. and protected the Welsh coast from the sea bound Irish raiders. Apart from being of military use, Segontium was also the administrative centre for north west Wales.
Segontium Roman fort is also a great day out!
Yours LondonPlane -
Message 21
Posted by Elistan (U1872011) on Saturday, 24th December 2005
Cheers for that.
I'll be able to go have a look now. It's just outside of Rush. Pity that no excavations can take place
E -
Message 22
Posted by DocMike15 (U3167117) on Wednesday, 8th February 2006
Sorry I'm a bit late to this discussion, but I've only just noticed it. Did the 'Romans' get to Ireland? If you mean did a Roman legion land at Drummangh, etc, no. Were there low-level trading links plus some pay-off at a later date, yes. The Dublin site is not a Roman fort, but probably a local trading site, with R-B traders possibly using it to trade with locals, perhaps with the protection of the local king. There are few Roman goods in Ireland, and they are very scattered (although mainly on the east coast). The arguments about Roman troops, presence, etc are basically all without foundation, and Richard Warner's theories (and others) seem to see things which nobody else can. Actually, I'd like to imagine what would have happened if Rome had occupied Ireland - theres a great theoretical arch project to be done on it.
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