Ancient and ArchaeologyΜύ permalink
pyramid building
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Message 1.Μύ
Posted by sabatas (U2143178) on Thursday, 29th September 2005
For some reason everyone is under the impression that the stones that built the pyramids were moved from the quarry by man.
I acknowledge that they were transported via boat down the Nile.
Nobody seems to think of the obvious solution to most heavy duty jobs carried out in ancient times.
They had the Hemp rope and a circular pulley.
They had ELEPHANTS and oxen etc.
Surely they would have put these animals to good use.
Four different pulleys palced on the top of each layer of the pyramid as it was being erected.
The elephants would be on the base of the pyramid pulling, via pulleys the stones up.
As the pyramid grew in height the pulleys would be reduced accordingly.
Until finally at the top only one remained.
This came to me in a dream. -
Message 2
Posted by RB (U1699336) on Friday, 30th September 2005
I thought they used dragons to pick up the stones and drop them off at the top?
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Message 3
Posted by TonyG (U1830405) on Saturday, 1st October 2005
Just because the ancients didn't have the technology, doesn't mean they were stupid. I am sure the Egyptians would have used any means that worked to move their masonry. However, it would depend on how much effort it took to keep and feed the animals compared to the abundance (or lack of it) of manual labour. If there were plenty of peasants / slaves around, why bother spending time and money keeping animals to do the heavy work. If there was a shortage of manual labour, then I expect they would look to animals to do the heavy work.
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Message 4
Posted by sabatas (U2143178) on Saturday, 1st October 2005
Who knows maybe they had dragons.
Sensible answer
TY -
Message 5
Posted by sabatas (U2143178) on Saturday, 1st October 2005
I still believe that elephants were used along with manual workers.
If 100 men tried to pull an heavy stone, whose to know how many men are pulling hard and how many are pretending to pull.
Elephants don`t have the intelligence to pretend to pull.
A few elephants would do the job more efficiently and be a lot less expensive to feed and maintain than 100 men. -
Message 6
Posted by Stepney Boy (U1760040) on Saturday, 1st October 2005
Hi sabatas,<BR /> <BR />Perhaps because the weight of the elephant is concentrated in a relatively small area on the contruction ramps and scaffolding was to much. But the weight of one hundred slaves / masons could be spread over a larger area with the same pulling power was the way foreward.<BR /><BR />Another consideration is do elephants have a head for heights?<BR /><BR />Regards<BR />Spike<BR /> <QUOTE' USER='sabatas' USERID='2143178'>I still believe that elephants were used along with manual workers.<BR />If 100 men tried to pull an heavy stone, whose to know how many men are pulling hard and how many are pretending to pull.<BR />Elephants don`t have the intelligence to pretend to pull.<BR />A few elephants would do the job more efficiently and be a lot less expensive to feed and maintain than 100 men.</QUOTE>
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Message 7
Posted by sabatas (U2143178) on Saturday, 1st October 2005
Why does everyone suggest ramps were used?
There is no proof of this.
They had very strong hemp rope, circular pulleys for the rope to run on. (geared pulleys I don`t know).
There would be no need for ramps as the stones would be pulled UP either side of the pyramid. I imagine a pulley on a large tripod standing on top of each layer.
As each layer was completed the pulley would be moved up a layer.
ie. the stones to be moved up on the left side of the pyramid would be pulled up the pyramid by the elephants on the right side via the pulley and tripod stand at the top of each level. Seems feasible to me. -
Message 8
Posted by kevmar (U1902470) on Saturday, 1st October 2005
Oh Dear!
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Message 9
Posted by jberie (U1767537) on Monday, 3rd October 2005
<QUOTE' USER='sabatas' USERID='2143178'>Why does everyone suggest ramps were used?<BR />There is no proof of this.<BR />They had very strong hemp rope, circular pulleys for the rope to run on. (geared pulleys I don`t know).<BR />There would be no need for ramps as the stones would be pulled UP either side of the pyramid. I imagine a pulley on a large tripod standing on top of each layer.<BR />As each layer was completed the pulley would be moved up a layer.<BR />ie. the stones to be moved up on the left side of the pyramid would be pulled up the pyramid by the elephants on the right side via the pulley and tripod stand at the top of each level. Seems feasible to me. <BR /><BR />I never thought about the use of "livestock" for the pyramids. Since being indoctrinated from aan early age about how the structures were built, I have not given thought. <BR /><BR />Is there evidence of the use of pulleys, and beasts of burden being used in ancient Egypt?<BR /><BR /> <BR /><BR /><BR /></QUOTE>
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Message 10
Posted by Richie (U1238064) on Monday, 3rd October 2005
plus Spike
does anyone know of an Egyptian expedition to the elephant regions of africa??
I know the empire extended to Nubia, but that was for a mixture of protection and access to mineral riches (ie gold)
Egyptians were fairly insular people, they had no real need to leave the nile valley for any reason
and to collect elephants (which i doubt they knew existed at the time of the great pyramids) just for beasts of burden is a theory I find difficult to beleive bordering on lunacy -
Message 11
Posted by jberie (U1767537) on Monday, 3rd October 2005
<QUOTE' USER='Richie' USERID='1238064'>plus Spike<BR /><BR />does anyone know of an Egyptian expedition to the elephant regions of africa??<BR /><BR />I know the empire extended to Nubia, but that was for a mixture of protection and access to mineral riches (ie gold)<BR /><BR />Egyptians were fairly insular people, they had no real need to leave the nile valley for any reason<BR /><BR />and to collect elephants (which i doubt they knew existed at the time of the great pyramids) just for beasts of burden is a theory I find difficult to beleive bordering on lunacy</QUOTE><BR /><BR />This has got me to thinking. "Lunacy" is too prejudiced a term.<BR /><BR />Results from crsory research;<BR />Sledges in Mesopotamia--3200 bc<BR /><BR />Horses domesticated in Eurasia--6000 bc<BR /><BR />Evidence of wheel in use--2700--2400 bc<BR /><BR />Asian elephant in use as beast of burden--2000 bc<BR /><BR />Elephants used in war against Alex. the Great---326 bc<BR /><BR />Pyramids built--2550--2470 bc.<BR /><BR />It's possible.<BR /><BR />Speaking as one with an agricultural background, I know that human beings find ways to tackle difficult chores in creative ways, using tools that are available. I have moved very heavy objects--things that I couldn't pickup or move just with my own body--through the use of rollers, steel bars, and pulleys.
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Message 12
Posted by Richie (U1238064) on Tuesday, 4th October 2005
Speaking as one with an agricultural background, I know that human beings find ways to tackle difficult chores in creative ways, using tools that are available. I have moved very heavy objects--things that I couldn't pickup or move just with my own body--through the use of rollers, steel bars, and pulleys. Μύ
I'm not discounting bars and pulleys or even beasts of burden.
I am just discounting Elephants. I have been thinking about this and I can't think of an Egyptian Elephant God. The ancient gods all correspond with an animal (except Osiris and Isis) and jackels, falcons/eagles, cows, croc's, ibis, cats, hippos all feature. Elephants don't. And lets face it, an elephant is an impresive beast. You think that people living 4000 years ago who deified a cat wouldn't be shocked and awed by the sight of an elephant?? Also there is no depcition of one that I know of, or mumified remains. No physical evidence that elephants were used in Egypt
Please if someone out there has evidence to prove me wrong please tell me
Rich -
Message 13
Posted by sabatas (U2143178) on Tuesday, 4th October 2005
Can you think of a WIND GOD.
Raising stones via KITES.
This was a programme i watched, suggesting large stones were moved via kites.
If this was the case the Egyptians would have been flying long before the Wright brothers.
The programme also showed hieroglyphics of winged goddeses.
They interpreted this as a kite.
They tried a few experiments with modern kites, tripod and nylon rope.
They managed to lift a small obelisk.
When they used the wooden tripod and hemp rope.
Not much success.
I think my idea is more feasible.
I know i am talking to experts who know a lot more than I.
But as I said originally this came in a dream.
Lets face it Elephants were about. -
Message 14
Posted by Richie (U1238064) on Tuesday, 4th October 2005
But as I said originally this came in a dream.
Lets face it Elephants were about.Μύ
Yes but not in Egypt, not at that period of history.
Nice dream though -
Message 15
Posted by gentlemaggyann (U2151399) on Tuesday, 4th October 2005
Hello,I know I am new, but I would like to suggest sand.If sand was used by piling it up sos that it was at the same level as each stone,and used rather like a ramp.Could htis not aid in the setting of the stones? -
Message 16
Posted by jberie (U1767537) on Wednesday, 5th October 2005
Halliburton?
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Message 17
Posted by sabatas (U2143178) on Thursday, 6th October 2005
Do you have any proof that elephants were`t around at that time?
Just because the hieroglyphics don`t depict elephants doesn`t mean they were not present.
The Romans destroyed most records of Egyptian history.
The Egyptians completely obliterated the name of a certain Pharoah (name I can`t recall) who worshipped the sun.
The mummys were moved to the valley of the Kings to stop grave robbers.
So much secrecy, so many generations.
Maybe they didn`t want to reveal their secret of pyramid building. anymore than they revealed the secret chambers etc.
Look at the question with an open mind and not something you have read in a book. -
Message 18
Posted by Richie (U1238064) on Thursday, 6th October 2005
Do you have any proof that elephants were`t around at that time?
Just because the hieroglyphics don`t depict elephants doesn`t mean they were not present.
The Romans destroyed most records of Egyptian history.
The Egyptians completely obliterated the name of a certain Pharoah (name I can`t recall) who worshipped the sun.
The mummys were moved to the valley of the Kings to stop grave robbers.
So much secrecy, so many generations.
Maybe they didn`t want to reveal their secret of pyramid building. anymore than they revealed the secret chambers etc.
Look at the question with an open mind and not something you have read in a book.
Μύ
The Romans didn't destroy all the knowledge in Egypt when they burnt the library.
Atenaken (sp)
Mummies ~ Your point being?
Its a simple fact, Elephants are alien creatures to the Nile Valley. For your theory to be effective a large number of elephants would be needed with a plentiful supply of replacements. Such an endevour would be recorded. We have records of expedutions to Punt under Hapshetut (sp) and other such voyages. The Egyptians were a very religious peoples with an adiction to animal gods, something the size and power of an elephant would have led to some form of temple and worship to the elephant god.
Records would exist on the temple walls, maybe inside the pyramids, maybe in the mortuary temples. Simple fact is that there would be some record somewhere. The silence of the walls is damning on this occasion. I can hear echos running down the ages in the emptiness of mut screaming to the fact that no elephants were used in the making of the pyramids
maybe Laing had the contract however?? -
Message 19
Posted by jberie (U1767537) on Friday, 7th October 2005
Are there hieroglyphics (sp?) showing multitudes of people building pyramids?
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Message 20
Posted by expat32 (U2025313) on Saturday, 8th October 2005
Who knows maybe they had dragons.
Sensible answer
TYΜύ
It's obvious some of us have forgotten it was done with magic carpets. -
Message 21
Posted by Turnwrest (U2188092) on Monday, 10th October 2005
If there is any truth in the suggestion that the pyramids were built by labour raised as a sort of corvee, surely oxen would be a more sensible choice of draught animal? If you conscript the farmers, why not conscript their plough teams at the same time?
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Message 22
Posted by sabatas (U2143178) on Monday, 10th October 2005
I belive that between us we have thr right idea.
The use of oxen seems to please the so called egyptologists more than the use of elephants.
However they are hell bent on the idea of ramps and men moving the stones.
Surely if they used animals to plough fields, why not use them to pull heavy objects?
If its not depicted on the wall, according to them,it didn`t happen.
I wonder how these so called experts will interpret the GRAFFITI which adorns our streets today?
I guess in a few millenium they will think we were all gang related. -
Message 23
Posted by Turnwrest (U2188092) on Monday, 10th October 2005
I can understand why oxen are more pleasing to the Great Minds than elephants - by Occam's Razor, "one should not increase, beyond what is necessary, the number of entities required to explain anything". Thus they will not see any need to factor in elephants until someone points out that the large grey thing in the corner that nobody is discussing is, in fact, a pachydermatous quadruped of the family Elephantidae
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Message 24
Posted by Richie (U1238064) on Monday, 10th October 2005
when someone points out to me a mumified elephant, or an elephant god or an elephant temple then I will start to re-assess my opinions.
Untill then there is no evidence that they even knew that elephants existed during the times of the pyramids.
I agree that oxen could well be an option. One theory is that no slave labour was used, only willing farmers in the close season, so it would make sense for them to use their beasts of burden
However I stand by my thoughts that the elephant idea should be firmly discounted.
magic carpets however, hmm, hadn't considered them before
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