Ancient and Archaeology permalink
Hadrian's wall at least.
This discussion has been closed.
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Message 1.Â
Posted by PaulRyckier (U1753522) on Wednesday, 21st September 2005
When I was at Newcastle I visited three museums located near Hadrian's wall.
When visiting the site of Vindolanda and the Roman Army Museum I tried perhaps 20 times to download the Preview of the Eagle's Eye film, but I never succeeded, something to do with Java script it seems?. Waiting on the special Hadrian's Wall bus line AD 122 I met a girl working for the Vindolanda-Roman army museum and she said that she also tried to download the Eagle's Eye film and it wasn't possible either.
The first bus arrived at 1116 at Vidolanda but then I had to choose between 3H and a half there and then I would arrive at the Army Museum at 1510, but then I had to catch the last bus back to Newcastle at 1605. Lucky that I decided to go first to the Roman Army museum. While it was much more interesting IMO than the Vindolanda area. So I could stay for a big three hours there and had 1 H and 10 minutes for Vindolanda. In the worsest case I could stay for another hour but then the bus returned only to Hexam instead of Newcastle.
On the bus to the Army Museum I met some nice English group of people in their fourties. When I spoke about the stone walls fencing the land, a lady said to me that it was differing from region to region and that there was even a museum somewhere in England (she called the name) where they had the different manners and designs of constructing the walls...
I remember something Gilgamesh and Sufflin Peasant discussed on the former archaelogic board about the time the land was fenced in? with stone walls? Was that what we in Belgium call the "Cadaster"? Gilgamesh, Sufflin?
When I arrived in the Army Museum I was friendly welcomed by an Englishman from the museum, I said it again about the preview on the internet of the Eagle's Eye film and he promised to prevent the authorities of the museum. It was such a nice lad, not Geordie he said but from London. It was friendly teamwork I saw, every one working together to serve the customer, including doing the washing-up. Something remembered me of the Â鶹ԼÅÄ? series with the small railway station and its crew.
I had a nice time overthere not only watching the very interesting film: Join the Roman Army, where some officer try to recrute some soldiers. Perhaps Nervii from the far away area of the nowadays Belgium, who were there for some time. I also saw finally the Eagle's Eye Film, as seen by an eagle flying along the whole Hadrian's wall. Very artistic IMO. It was from my last visit to the film centre at Poitiers (France) that I saw such an amazing documentary. Also the museum was very good with all the items of the normal soldiers life. I am not sure if it was there or in Vindolanda that I saw how the wooden letters were made in which the messages were carved, as about a soldier needing an extra pair of socks.
In the shop I saw books about the Reavers? (it was nearly written as the Dutch "rovers" and it meant the same as I heard from a visitor and he said that it was about the 17th century? reavers bands fighting each other on the back of the peasants? We had it in the 19th century still in Flanders, well-known and nearly a legend here: de bende van Baeckelandt (the band of Baeckelandt).
Vindolanda. It was raining. And IMO the reconstruction was not that highlight, more like a neglected part of the Atlantik Wall. The ruins were impressive, but perhaps more for archaeologists. While it was raining my wife stayed in the entrance gate, which was, perhaps by the rain, a bit desolate. I persisted to go to the museum far downhill, not easy to find. It was in a villa and there was a nice little Roman construction outside it. The museum was interesting, but would be a lot more if it was at the entrance IMO. I missed it nearly, and was lucky that the man at the entrance said that it was there downhill. You couldn't see it from the excavatations.
Segedunum. The fort at the end of Hadrian's wall near the sea at Newcastle. Certainly as interesting as Vindolanda in my humble opinion. You have a sight on the excavated fort from a 35 meter high panorama tower, with computer screens, showing how this view has changed over the past 2,000 years. In the museum an interesting interactive filmtheatre. A lot of items found at Wallsend from the time of the fort. There are original remains of Hadrian's Wall and a recontruction of a part of the completed Wall. Also a modern gallery with film about Wallsend's world-famous coal-mining and shipbuilding industries. Also a recontruction of the Roman baths based on those at Chester. Part was closed due to vandalism. There was also an hospital in the fort. -
Message 2
Posted by Alaric the Goth (U1826823) on Thursday, 22nd September 2005
Thanks for all that, Paul.
The Roman Army Museum is a good little museum, isn't it?
I am sorry you seem to have been somewhat disappointed in Vindolanda. I like that site a lot. The rain wouldn't help! Its museum is in a nice little valley, admittedly away from the main entrance. The part about the Roman writing tablets they found, and all the inforamtion they contain about ordinary life at the fort, is fascinating.
You mention 'reivers'. My ancestors were Border Reivers. My real surname is 'Elliott': the name of one of the most notorious reiving families from The Debateable Lands (i.e. just across the present Scottish border). My mother has a little book of Northumbrian Court rolls from the 16th or 17th century (I forget which). It contains things like 'The Elliotts and the Armstrongs raided Rothbury and took off 300 head of cattle and 500 sheep, setting the town afire'.
So my family has quite a past!
Good regards,
AE -
Message 3
Posted by Richie (U1238064) on Thursday, 22nd September 2005
sounds like one nice place to visit
Maybe you should try Caerleon and Caerwent some day
Caerleon does put on some good shows with the Roman Army during the summer -
Message 4
Posted by Dirk Marinus (U1648073) on Thursday, 22nd September 2005
Paul,
Nice to know you enjoyed visit to the North East.
I left a message for you on the other thread of Hadrian's Wall explaining why the girls in Newcastle don't wear any coats or jackets when they go out. -
Message 5
Posted by PaulRyckier (U1753522) on Sunday, 25th September 2005
Re: Message 2.
Alaric,
excuse for the delay. Only able to read the boards from time to time.
Alaric, about Vidolanda, I think you are right. I am too harsh to it. Yes, with a thight timetable to catch the bus again, nevertheless I have seen it all in the English cottage in the nice little valley, when a lot of visitor's were contemplating the "prullaria" to buy in the shop. Yes, now I remember it was there were I saw the writing or cutting in the wooden letters, I read about on the internet before I left Belgium. And yes, I saw the ordinary life at the fort. Mind you, I did once the Vatican Museum in Rome in less than one and a half hour and had nevertheless seen the highlights, at least the highlights that interested me. The same the first time with the Louvre in Paris. And the second time with the grandchildren, the granddaughter wanted to get shopping instead of looking to the Mesopotamian part. Too boring she said. Life can be so unpredictable. By the way my wife is also more interesting in shopping. But there I have a bit more power...I think...
The Hermitage in Leningrad, I was with my father, but there, we were the guests of the Soviet Union, and our guides showed us only the Dutch and Flemish Painters. And we had notting to say, while we, for cost reasons had made a trip arranged by the Communist Party of Belgium to promote the friendship between Belgium and the "great" Soviet Union.
Alaric, yes Border Reivers it was. Thank you for your explanation and that of your family heritage.
Good regards (ta ra?),
Paul. -
Message 6
Posted by PaulRyckier (U1753522) on Sunday, 25th September 2005
Re: message 3.
Richie, my friend,
you don't know what you have done to me. I started on the internet with Carleon and Caerwent and investigated it in depth and ended with the investigation of the Belgae in Britain. Winchester: "Venta Belgarum", Silchester: Calleva Atrebatum.
The Atrebates were from the nowadays Arras in the nowadays France: Département Pas de Calais.
The Nervii, who were also as auxiliaries in the Roman army fort near Vindolanda, lived between th Sceldt (Schelde) and the Meuse (Meuse). Their neighbours were the Virumandui (Vermandois) and the Atrebates.
Some tribes of the Marne region made trade with the also Celtic people of Britain in the first Century BC. After more victories by Ceasar 54-51 BC escaped more Belgian settlers to Britain and expanded their culture in parts of South-England. The most important Belgian kingdom started in Colchester (the Trinovanten under king Cunobelinus), St. Albans (the Catuvellaunen) and Silchester (the Atrebates).
Belgian tribes on the continent: Beleovaker, Aduatuker, Eburonen, Nervii, Suessionen (Soissons), Remer, Viromanduer, Ambianes, Atrebaten, Moriner, Menapier. Sorry, for the spelling, I picked it all up from German, Dutch, French and English sites...And my English translation isn't always to trust...
We, here in the province West-Flanders, from Calais to the nowadays Zeeland (the Netherlands) were the "Menapiers" (Dutch spelling). I learned it at school when I was 8 years old. Those from East-Flanders and Antwerp were "Morinen" I believe. In the nowadays Limburg we had the "Eburonen" with Tongeren and Ambiorix. The rest of nowadays Belgium were the "Nerviërs" with "Boduogenat" if I remember it well...
What we still have from the Menapii is debatable and futile IMO, as the futile debates on the other boards as about what "blood" still is in the nowadays Britain subject. I agree in that debate most with Bishwarrior and Steve P if I remember it well. Culture is it IMO and notting else...If I have time I will join the debate, having done a lot of research for HEN GEST in the time on the old boards and more recently with the estemed Paul Barlow and Tim W, if I remember it all rightly in the debate of the Anglo-Saxon invasions...
Kind regards,
Paul. -
Message 7
Posted by PaulRyckier (U1753522) on Sunday, 25th September 2005
Re: Message 4.
Dirk,
I made an in depth answer to you on your reply on the History Hub in my old thread about Newcastle. Thank you for the reply there with your theories and see my reply with my theories.
Warm regards from your also Dutch "bred" friend (bred? see my reply to Richie. At least the Dutch language have we in common...(provoking smile to all the challengers heading for the "blood" (genetics) theory),
Paul. -
Message 8
Posted by Alaric the Goth (U1826823) on Wednesday, 28th September 2005
Paul,
I watched a Â鶹ԼÅÄ programme two nights ago that dealt with an old map of Northumberland, and how the Border Reivers affected the north-west of the County.
It mentioned how two well-known English words derive from those days:
'Blackmail' was originally meaning 'black meal' and refererd to a large dish of oats left as a kind of 'protecion money' outside a farmstead, for the Reivers to take in 'payment'.
And 'bereaved' derives from 'been reaved' representing the loss suffered by victimns of a Reivers' raid.
That's just reminded me of a third word: 'raid' itself, same root as the word 'road' (Old English 'rad', meaning of which was 'a riding'). In Scotland and the Borders a 'riding' was so often to attack and plunder that 'raid' (the Scots pronunciation) came to have its usual meaning.
Ta ra
Alaric -
Message 9
Posted by Anglo-Norman (U1965016) on Wednesday, 28th September 2005
I'm highly suspicious about that origin of 'blackmail'. Our dictionary says that 'mail' is from an obsolete term for the payment of money, although the OED does say it's origins lie with the Reivers.
That programme - it was Map Man with Nicholas 'How Irritating Am I?' Crane - seriously annoyed me, because once again the presenter was walking ON the Wall
. The National Trust might as well not bother wasting money on paths and warnings about not damaging the fabric because as soon as the general public see that they'll no doubt think it's okay. And then NC speaks without irony about parts of the Wall falling down! 
Anyway, The Roman Army Museum is a great little place. I thought Vindolanda was fascinating (it rained when I went there too!) - sorry to hear Paul wasn't over impressed. Segedunum's great. -
Message 10
Posted by PaulRyckier (U1753522) on Wednesday, 28th September 2005
Re: Message 8.
Alaric,
thank you very much for your reply about the Border Reivers.
However I did some research about "mail" in world wide words. and there I found: from medieval times "mail", often spelled "male" until the 17th century, was a pack or travelling bag (the modern French "malle" is a close cousin).
"mail" seems to be the American for the English "post". Although the Â鶹ԼÅÄ explanation is also a colourful one...
Ta ra,
Paul. -
Message 11
Posted by PaulRyckier (U1753522) on Wednesday, 28th September 2005
Re: Message 9.
Anglo-Norman,
when I was near the Roman Army museum, I wanted to have a photograph from Hadrian's Wall and I walked occasionally with two German guys, who wanted to do the wall in complete mountain outfit. Had a nice chat with them about the Wall but let them go after I had taken the photograph. I didn't walk on the Wall, I repeat I didn't walk on the Wall.
"I thought Vindolanda was fascinating (it rained when I went there too!) - sorry to hear Paul wasn't over impressed."
Anglo-Norman, I made a U turn to Alaric (see my message 5), some politician-like. It can be also caused by the stress to catch the bus ID 122 back to Newcastle (ambiguous smile)
Anglo-Norman, as an aside, by your name you seems to be the perfect connotation of both the Anglo-Saxon and Norman "values", whatever that means. I did some research for the Macedonian language, because I am catched between the Greek Nikolaos and the Macedonian Emillia. I prepared an answer in mind, but in fact it seems to come down again in a dispute about etnicity, language, nation-building. Lucky that there is no religion in it because they don't speak about the Albanians. I saw the semi-light-hearted discussion about the Normans and the Saxons on the boards, but, I have to seek it back, in the "British" thread, they start already with links of language between Basques and Celtic and somewhere there is already again on another thread talk about genetic links to prove the "etnic?" agenda of some contributors. I think, that we have to stick to scientific proven or highly founded theories, before we make any statements in honest history writing.
I think that I will compare the Letzeburg language from the Grand-Duchy of Luxemburg to support my views on the Macedonian language. Perhaps, if I have time, I will again start a new debate about etnicity, nationhood, language, religion, culture, genetics and the use by some groups for their own purposes with an agenda to prove that they are quite otherwise than their neighbours.
From my childhood on I am as perhaps all people from border regions mingled in all those questions. Don't laugh, about people from the North of Belgium being "different" from those of the South by the influence of the history. If some would dare, they would add genetics too.
Kind regards,
Paul. -
Message 12
Posted by Hasse (U1882612) on Friday, 30th September 2005
Paul
My friend hold your fingers crossed,this afternoon have I been called to the hospital for hopefully the last surgery on my eyes.
See you in a week or two.
Lev väl
Hasse -
Message 13
Posted by Anglo-Norman (U1965016) on Friday, 30th September 2005
Paul,
I chose Anglo-Norman simply because my home in Jersey is part of what the French call Les Isles Anglo-Normandes, and it seemed suitably historical.
Oddly enough by descent I'm actually Anglo-Welsh - a Cadwalladr on my paternal grandmother's side. My family on my father's side hails from Shrewsbury, Shropshire, on the Welsh border, and can be traced back there to the early 13th century. -
Message 14
Posted by PaulRyckier (U1753522) on Saturday, 1st October 2005
Re: Message 12.
Hasse,my friend,
excuse for the delay. It will be too late, you will be already under surgery.
I can only wish you good luck and all the best with the surgery and I hope that you will be seeing with both your eyes again in two weeks.
Nice, that you adressed this message especially to me.
Cross fingers for you my dear friend.
Lev väl,
Paul. -
Message 15
Posted by PaulRyckier (U1753522) on Saturday, 1st October 2005
Re: message 13.
Anglo,
thank you very much for sharing your family history with me.
Don't read too much in my message to you. It is just that I start with my 62 perhaps being an old grumpy (ranter?). (guilty smile)
Warm regards,
Paul. -
Message 16
Posted by jberie (U1767537) on Sunday, 2nd October 2005
<QUOTE' USER='Alaric the Goth' USERID='1826823'>Thanks for all that, Paul.<BR /><BR />The Roman Army Museum is a good little museum, isn't it?<BR /><BR />I am sorry you seem to have been somewhat disappointed in Vindolanda. I like that site a lot. The rain wouldn't help! Its museum is in a nice little valley, admittedly away from the main entrance. The part about the Roman writing tablets they found, and all the inforamtion they contain about ordinary life at the fort, is fascinating.<BR /><BR />You mention 'reivers'. My ancestors were Border Reivers. My real surname is 'Elliott': the name of one of the most notorious reiving families from The Debateable Lands (i.e. just across the present Scottish border). My mother has a little book of Northumbrian Court rolls from the 16th or 17th century (I forget which). It contains things like 'The Elliotts and the Armstrongs raided Rothbury and took off 300 head of cattle and 500 sheep, setting the town afire'.<BR /><BR />So my family has quite a past!<BR /><BR />Good regards,<BR />AE</QUOTE><BR />A book that I read a while back,"Albion's Seed--Four British Folkways in America," (author;Fischer?), says that you border folks are the ones responsible for the violence of some of the American southern states.<BR /><BR />The states of Tennessee, West Virginia were settled by people of the borderlands. The areas were known for clannish fueding.<BR /><BR />I found your post most interesting.<BR /><BR />JB
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Message 17
Posted by PaulRyckier (U1753522) on Sunday, 2nd October 2005
Re: message 16.
J berie,
"Tennessee was settled by people of the borderlands". I was there once upon a time, in the Smoky Mountains to be more exact and they seems to use there a kind of "dieventaaltje" ("reavers dialect")(slang) that seems worser in my ears than the Scottish-English dialect from Glasgow...Not to say that our West-Flemish dialect from the Belgian coast is that better...
Kind regards,
Paul. -
Message 18
Posted by ~Alan~ (U1813923) on Wednesday, 5th October 2005
I love that part of the country Paul.
We were up in North Yorkshire about three weeks ago, and went to Birdoswald Fort, one of the few major places we haven’t visited on the wall. The weather wasn’t brilliant, but it was nice to see the fort now that English Heritage have taken it over and improved the visitor centre.
On our way back we stopped in at Corbridge. This is one of my favourite sites, not the biggest, and not actually on the wall, but it’s a well worth a visit. We would have liked to have visited the Roman Army museum, but ran out of time. So much to see, and so little time available. -
Message 19
Posted by fascinating (U1944795) on Friday, 7th October 2005
Alan, for the sake of clarity I will point out that Birdoswald is not in Norh Yorkshire; you must have travelled at least 40 miles to reach Birdoswald from there.
Hope you took the path down from the fort to the River Irthing, and saw the massive stone blocks that took the wall over the river, and formed setting for water wheels.
Apropos Corbridge, excavations there (not in the fort but on the other side of the river) have revealed part of Dere Street and the Roman bridge abutment. -
Message 20
Posted by PaulRyckier (U1753522) on Saturday, 8th October 2005
Re: Message 18.
~Alan~,
thanks for the reply.
Yes, so little time available, mainly due to the time shedule of the AD122 busline. I was reluctant to hire a car, although I did already the righthand driving for an 800 miles in South- Africa.
Yes, I love that part of your country too, but already promised to Ozymandias to visit Ireland (for the first time in my life).
Kind regards,
Paul. -
Message 21
Posted by ~Alan~ (U1813923) on Saturday, 8th October 2005
Yes of course, should have said Birdoswald wasn't in N.Yorks, silly me.
We actually travelled more than 40 miles, as we were staying near to Catterick, where my wife's cousins live. It's wasnt a good day when we went there, rather damp and miserable. They were just putting some of the finishing touches to the new visitor centre, very nice it is too.
The weather was much better at Corbridge, but didn't know you could walk down to the river, we did read about the excavations by the bridge, on the boards in the museum. We only had a little time before it closed, although we had been there before.
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