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Arten Sole God
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Message 1.Ìý
Posted by andyunlimited (U2054903) on Thursday, 15th September 2005
Can anyone help me. I wan to know if the pharoah Arkenarten was the first monarch to pray to just one god. Was there someone else earlier who believed in one god before him?
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Message 2
Posted by DL (U1683040) on Thursday, 15th September 2005
Hi Andy,
I'm speaking from memory here so there will probably be a fair few errors. As far as I'm aware, Akhenaten was the first monotheist ruler. He abandoned all the Egyptian old gods and basically moved the capital of Egypt to a new site, building a city in the desert in honour of the new religion (I think he picked the site because of the nice sunset! Might be wrong though).
There may have been earlier monotheists but I'm not aware of any. Akhenaten's reign (Usually referred to as the Amarna period) caused many disruptions in Egyptian life, and weakened the empire severely, as Akhenaten neglected the running of his kingdom in order to practice his new faith in the Aten, the one god. He is always referred to as the heretic Pharaoh, and his wife Nefertiti is probably just as famous as him.
After his death, the young heir to the throne Tutankhaten was bullied by his advisors into recanting his father's religion, and restored the old religion and the old gods. He changed his name to Tutankhamun after this restoration, and Akhenaten was at first reviled, with his statues being defaced and destroyed, and then forgotten, as was Tutankhamun, his name being removed from almost all monuments, and in fact removing all record of the heretic family. It's ironic that Tutankhamun is now the most famous Pharaoh of all, and his father is well known too, yet the successor to Tutankhamun, Ay, a former commoner who many believe plotted his way to the throne, and may even have murdered Tutankhamun is practically forgotten, his tomb long plundered and destroyed.
It is IMO one of the most fascinating episodes in Egyptian history!
Cheers
DL -
Message 3
Posted by lolbeeble (U1662865) on Thursday, 15th September 2005
Andy, it depends where you want to place Zoroaster's teachings bearing in mind that he is generally believed to have taught sometime between 1500 and 650BC.
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Message 4
Posted by Gilgamesh of Uruk (U211168) on Friday, 16th September 2005
You've actually asked two questions, not one. In polytheistic socieities, it's not uncommon for someone to regard one god as their particular protector, and to pray more or less exclusively to that god, or even to regard all the gods as aspects of a single deity (as many Hindus do). That's not quite the same thing as believing there is only one God.
Theres a moot point over Zoroastrianism - Ormuzd is the only true creator, but Ahriman has a more godlike status than Satan/Shaitan does in the Mosaic religions. -
Message 5
Posted by andyunlimited (U2054903) on Friday, 16th September 2005
Which king first believed in Ormuzd as the creator. Why is the date of the teachings so far apart 1500-650 BC? The Persians believed in Ormuzd as a creator god, but can you give me a date that it is recorded as the god of all Persians?
Thanks
Andrew -
Message 6
Posted by andyunlimited (U2054903) on Monday, 19th September 2005
Ormuzd is one of two gods the other being Ahriman and therfore the Persian kings could not possibly claim to be praying to one god.
Andy You've actually asked two questions, not one. In polytheistic socieities, it's not uncommon for someone to regard one god as their particular protector, and to pray more or less exclusively to that god, or even to regard all the gods as aspects of a single deity (as many Hindus do). That's not quite the same thing as believing there is only one God.
Theres a moot point over Zoroastrianism - Ormuzd is the only true creator, but Ahriman has a more godlike status than Satan/Shaitan does in the Mosaic religions.Ìý -
Message 7
Posted by lolbeeble (U1662865) on Monday, 19th September 2005
Dunno, as it stands the Hebrew Kings weren't to averse to adopting other cults alongside the God of Moses during the iron age, much to the chagrin of the prophits so it seems monotheism isn't particularly stable especially amongst Kings who'll usually worship anyone so long as they promise the continued success of their house. This is doubly true of your neighouring King also sponsors the cult practice.
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Message 8
Posted by CassandraOphelia (U1476296) on Tuesday, 4th October 2005
hi Andy.
I think what we can say with no doubt is Akhenaten was the first RECORDED monotheistic monarch; and even that is slightly incorrect. A the Heir to the throne in a polytheistic society, the young prince would have been involved in the worship of several Egyptian Deities.
When his father died in the mid 1300s BCE, Akhenaten was crowned as Amenhotep IV and within a year had elevated the Aten from an obscure and minor part of the pantheon to the supreme deity. In the fifth year of his reign he changed his name to Akhetaten and moved his capital to Amarna. At first he tried to involve the other deities, even as far as recording that the Aten and Ra-Horkety (the supreme deity formed from the merger of Amun-Ra and Horus) were one an the same.
It was in the ninth year of his reign that Akhenaten declared the Aten the only God and began to destory the traditional worships; even going as far as proscribing the word for Gods, the hieroglyphic pictogram for Mother (because it was so phoenticly close to the name of the goddess Mut) forcing the word to be writen out in full and outlawing private worship, ie within one's own home, of any god but Aten.
We know about Akhenaten becasue the Ancient Egyptians were so fond of monuments and recording events - it is possible that early monotheist monarchs have just been lost to history. -
Message 9
Posted by Nik (U1777139) on Wednesday, 5th October 2005
All these talks about monotheism and polytheism are way out of point since the meaning of 'god' is very different in the ancient world as it is in the middle ages with the spread of jewish-related religions.
The best example is the Hindu religion, certainly one of the most ancient in the world dating at least before 10,000 (as also proven by the similarities of the ancient religion of Ethiopeans in Africa who came from India around 10,000, unless that religion came to them later - though there is no other known "mass movement" of Indians in the African area)). The Hindu religion is essentially monotheistic; however, it has million gods (practically anything can be a god) in the sense that everything is made by the one god that is one with this world (i.e. everything in the world consists of ... god).
Similar notions were in Egyptian 'polytheistic' religion... Egyptian researches know very well for example that in texts and proverbs even common egyptians would not say.... 'in the name of Isis or if Osiris wants that' but they would say 'If God wants it', i.e. the one and only god (otherwise they would say 'If the gods want that'.
In ancient Grece, the twelve gods were immortal though they all did not exist from the beggining - they were born at some time from previous.... 'gods'... in reality, at the beggining it was the chaos and as the Orphic (as well as other) cults mentioned it was the forces of 'friendship' and 'animosity' (i.e. the well known forces of attraction and repulsion) that gave form to the initial chaos to subsequently give birth to our cosmos. Again, it is very common to read in greek texts that people evoked 'the god' and not 'Zeus', 'Poseidon', or 'Athena'.
On the other hand, using an appropriate analogy, the so called monotheistic religions are not more monotheistic in apperence than the so called polytheistic ones:
1 God/100s or derivatives - one God/three derivatives
12 gods - 12 Apostles
Aris (protector of armies), Poseidon (protector of marines), Apollo (killer of a dragon) - Santa Barbara (protector of armies), Saint Nicolaus (protector of marines), Saint George (killer of a dragon)
Any visit to any christian church orthodox, catholic or protestant will make you understand that modern faithfuls move along the same lines with their ancient counterparts - for the ancients the gods were nothing more than what the saints are for the 'monotheists'.
Even muslims that claim to worship only one God have so many... holy places as an overulling proof of their ... 'idololatric character'.
There are so many things to say on that that I consider it unecessary to continue
Hence, all that discussion on monotheism and polytheism is way out of reality.
Akenaton, for political but also personal reasons he wanted to make a change in his empire (not very different to what Konstantine did 2000 after him in another empire). What he aimed was most probably to take away the extended powers that the priests of the various gods had over people and thus over the pharaos themselves in a similar manner that Konstantine and his successors liked the 'one god - one emperor' dogma. -
Message 10
Posted by smofalsh (U1895543) on Monday, 17th October 2005
Didn't the Old Testament Jews believe in one God?
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Message 11
Posted by Richie (U1238064) on Tuesday, 18th October 2005
Didn't the Old Testament Jews believe in one God?Ìý
I remember hearing a particualry off the wall theory that the Armana period and Akenaten were in fact the Jews and Moses
like I say, slightly off the wall -
Message 12
Posted by DL (U1683040) on Tuesday, 18th October 2005
Hi Rich,
Hope all is well,
Just occurred to me, that there might possibly be something in that. There is a psalm in the Bible which is almost word for word identical with a poem of worship to the Aten which was found at Amarna. It is rumoured that Akhenaten was the author of this poem, and it is almost certain that this poem was the source of the psalm.
Not sure which psalm it is, but I'm almost certain that this is correct (working from memory again, sorry!)
Cheers -
Message 13
Posted by Richie (U1238064) on Tuesday, 18th October 2005
Hi Dark
Yes everything is going well in damp Wales.
I have heard about the psalm as well. I think it was on some sort of history/treasure hunting program on UKHistory a little while back
Rich -
Message 14
Posted by DL (U1683040) on Tuesday, 18th October 2005
Yeah think that's where I heard that one, but couldn't quite remember.
Its not looking quite so damp out here on the Broads, well, the water level isn't as scary as of recent days anyway! Still, the doorstep's a good ten feet up so nothing to worry about yet (although if global warming kicks in it should be fun-I might be able to jet-ski to the office! That would be good!!!) -
Message 15
Posted by Richie (U1238064) on Tuesday, 18th October 2005
as in Norfolk broads?
never been there myself, the closet I've got was Cambridge
heard that its nice in the summer though -
Message 16
Posted by DL (U1683040) on Tuesday, 18th October 2005
Yeah,
Its nice in the summer, but lots of tourists around and they really get on your nerves when they do dumb things like mooring at the bottom of your garden!!!! I must admit I prefer the place when it's not so busy, even if it is the back end of nowhere! -
Message 17
Posted by lolbeeble (U1662865) on Wednesday, 19th October 2005
Can I suggest you visit the Jewish boards, Eleizer Pennywhistler seems to be rather well versed about all this, the Tutmoses/Moses synchronism seems to crop up quite regularly there.
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Message 18
Posted by andyunlimited (U2054903) on Tuesday, 25th October 2005
There is of course one giant floor in the theory. If Tutmoses was Moses then how could Tutmoses heir Rameses the Great allow Moses to lead the exodus? Great trick a dead man leading the Jews to Israel.
Andrew Didn't the Old Testament Jews believe in one God?Ìý
I remember hearing a particualry off the wall theory that the Armana period and Akenaten were in fact the Jews and Moses
like I say, slightly off the wallÌý -
Message 19
Posted by Richie (U1238064) on Wednesday, 26th October 2005
There is of course one giant floor in the theory. If Tutmoses was Moses then how could Tutmoses heir Rameses the Great allow Moses to lead the exodus? Great trick a dead man leading the Jews to Israel.
Andrew Didn't the Old Testament Jews believe in one God?Ìý
I remember hearing a particualry off the wall theory that the Armana period and Akenaten were in fact the Jews and Moses
like I say, slightly off the wallÌý Ìý
i did say it was off the wall
and I have been following with great interest the thread on the Jewish board on this. Eliezer is one hell of a debater, but it is a fascinating thread -
Message 20
Posted by Sleepysharonrose (U2458501) on Friday, 11th November 2005
you are very good
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