Wars and Conflicts听 permalink
What were the three worst war mistakes ever made?
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Message 1.听
Posted by Tas (U1753225) on Saturday, 20th August 2005
This is extreme broad question because we are talking about all history. You could include the Charge of the Light Brigade from the Crimean War of 1854 or operation Market Garden from WWII. Two obvious major mistakes were Napoleon鈥檚 attack on Russia; after that he started losing his huge Empire and Hitler鈥檚 Operation Barbarosa. His initial attack on Russia was successful but in the long run that can be said to have cost him the war. Other possibilities are some of the Western Powers鈥 attacks on the Western Front in WWI, for example Somme. Perhaps Gallipoli is a candidate. The French Tactics at Agincourt were also a massive mistake. So what do you say? What were the three biggest war mistakes, whether tactical or strategic?
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Message 2
Posted by Tas (U1753225) on Saturday, 20th August 2005
Another huge mistake that comes to mind is that of the people of Troy and King Priam accepting the huge wooden horse as a gift from the Gods.(did not Casandra warn him about it?) I mean the actual proverbial 'Trojan Horse'; not the computer virus.
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Message 3
Posted by jammy (U1303992) on Saturday, 20th August 2005
Well i wouldn't say the Charge of the Light Brigade was such a big mistake because A) We only lost a few hundred men compared to thousands at somewhere like Gallipoli. B) The Charge of the Light Brigade is also thought by many to have been relatively successful contrary to popular belief.
1. I would say anything involving Hitler making a military decision was very bad for the Germans, esp attacking Russia, but in particular when he divided his attack force after the initial invasion.
I wouldn't say agincourt because it wasn't simply due to the French tactics that they lost, but also because of some good English tactics.
I wouldn't say Market Garden, because most of the plan was good on paper, it's just that somewhere someone decided to ignore the fact that a Panzer division was reported to be in the area by the Dutch resistance.
2. The Somme, used the wrong type of shells in the bombardment so barbed wire remained intact and Germans just hid underground. Allies were attacking uphill, mines blown up minutes before, warning of attack. Areas where troops would come out of trenches were marked out clearly so machine guns could mow troops down. And walking across no-man's land! What were the generals thinking.
3. Thought i'd choose an interesting one, The Battle of Stirling Bridge, 1297, the decision of the English to cross the narrow bridge rather than cross further upstream. Half of their troops got across into boggy ground where cavalry could not manoevure, then Wallace and the Scots charged massacring the English, and they were crushed as they tried to flee back across bridge.Link to this forum: What were the three worst war mistakes ever made?
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Message 4
Posted by Jozef (U1330965) on Saturday, 20th August 2005
I'd also suggest British and French failure to invade Nazi Germany at the start of September 1939.
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Message 5
Posted by jammy (U1303992) on Saturday, 20th August 2005
I don't think invading would have done any good. Britain was certainly in no shape to launch a full scale invasion of the new militarized germany. France had a relatively strong army compared to the Germans and i'm sure could have inflicted some damage, but would have been defeated. I think invading Germany and this stage would only have hastened Hitler's takeover of Europe, perhaps even knocking Britain out of the war.
However, the French did actually launch a very small and limited invasion of the Ruhr region i belive in 1940, but pulled out quite quickly. The effects were so small that it can't really be said to have succeeded or failed.Link to this forum: What were the three worst war mistakes ever made?
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Message 6
Posted by Binge-Drinker (U1655287) on Saturday, 20th August 2005
Rattle a few cages - Harold taking on William at Hastings.
Hitlers defence of the Channel Islands, he spent almost as much on defences here as the rest of the French Atlantic front, the Channel Islands never saw any concerted action. "What if" he had concentrated on defending Normandy ?
Japans defence against Macarthur in the Pacific, I think he had a very good ratio of troop loses comapred to them, often leap froging Islands.
The Royal Navy against the Dutch during the 17th century, the RN were confined to the Thames estuary at one point !
The French navy against the Nelson.
The war of independence ?
I reserve my right to pick three.
Cheers Nick - Church photographs taken by appointment.Link to this forum: What were the three worst war mistakes ever made?
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Message 7
Posted by jammy (U1303992) on Saturday, 20th August 2005
I don't think simply Harold deciding to take on William was a bad move. Certainly it wasn't ideal for Harold, he didn't have as many men as he would of liked and they had just fought a battle at Stamford Bridge and had to march all the way down in a matter of days.
However, the saxon shield wall held for quite a long time and for much of the battle it looked as if the saxons might prevail. The turning point(s) was when the normans initiated fake retreats (though the first was genuine) and some of the saxons broke the shield wall, charged down and were then butchered by the turning normans. However, this was not a decision of Harold and was down to the impetuousness of some of his men. Therefore i do not think that Harold's decision to fight or any of his tactics were bad decisions.Link to this forum: What were the three worst war mistakes ever made?
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Message 8
Posted by jammy (U1303992) on Saturday, 20th August 2005
Japans defence against Macarthur in the Pacific, I think he had a very good ratio of troop loses comapred to them, often leap froging Islands.
听
I wouldn't really say the Japanese defence constituted a significantly bad decision, though perhaps they should have been more agressive by defending th beaches more heavily rather than waiting inland. I would say that the outcome was much more to do with good American decisions than poor Japanese ones.Link to this forum: What were the three worst war mistakes ever made?
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Message 9
Posted by Jozef (U1330965) on Saturday, 20th August 2005
Jammy, I don't think invading would have done any good. Britain was certainly in no shape to launch a full scale invasion of the new militarized germany. France had a relatively strong army compared to the Germans and i'm sure could have inflicted some damage, but would have been defeated. I think invading Germany and this stage would only have hastened Hitler's takeover of Europe, perhaps even knocking Britain out of the war.
However, the French did actually launch a very small and limited invasion of the Ruhr region i belive in 1940, but pulled out quite quickly. The effects were so small that it can't really be said to have succeeded or failed.听
In 1939 there was an alliance between Poland, Britain and France. The plan was for Poland to hold out against Germany for two weeks before a major Anglo-French offensive was launched against Germany from the west. Look at the 1939 statistics, the combined forces of those three allies were superior to those of Germany alone. In the second week the war in Poland was still far from over, but the Anglo British offensive failed to materialise. I don't see how Germany could have successfully countered a large scale invasion from the west at that particular momement in time. It's all about timing. Stalin new that, he was hedging his bets and waited until the third week before joining Hitler in the carve up of Poland. In that time British planes were able to fly unhindered over Germany, but dropped leaflets instead of bombs. Poland eventually held out for five weeks instead of two, alone, attacked from all sides by two aggressors with vastly superior forces. This wasn't a 'phoney war'. This was the first in a string of disasters. An apalling show of weakness by both Britain and France which resulted in the worst cataclysm Europe has ever known. The saying 'who dares, wins' is very true. Already then Hitler was a madman, but this little toe rag's luck held out because he was crazy enough to out dare the psychologically weak west.
Cheers, JozefLink to this forum: What were the three worst war mistakes ever made?
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Message 10
Posted by Jozef (U1330965) on Saturday, 20th August 2005
Cheers Nick - Church photographs taken by appointment.听
My, you are a fearless rebel! You don't do mosques or North Korean nuclear power plants as well perchance?Link to this forum: What were the three worst war mistakes ever made?
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Message 11
Posted by jammy (U1303992) on Saturday, 20th August 2005
I disagree with much of this. I do think the Germans would be able to hold out against an Anglo-French attack, since i would not expect any attack of this sort to be well coordinated or planned i would predict that it would have been a disaster for the Allies. Hitler had always planned to attack France so he had strengthened his forces in the west. I certainly don't think any such attack from the west would have been all that large in scale anyway, since neither country was willing to risk so much so early on. And Britain, despite recent build ups, was still not prepared for such a war, only our navy was a major power. As i said, i think the French could have put up quite a fight, but they had seen clearly the horrors of WW1 and were in no hurry to start another war with Germany. Any how, it didn't happen so what we are saying is merely educated guess work and opinions.
I don't think Stalin was hedging his bets particularly, i believe his secret pact with Germany to attack Poland was made so that he would attack Poland on a certain date.
British planes were able to fly over Germany unhindered in the early days of the war, mainly because Hitler had great respect for Britain and believed they would make peace, he was certainly surprised at their decision to declare war on Germany over Poland.
I think if we had attacked Germany early on the end result would still see Germany controlling most of Europe.
I don't really think Hitler out dared the West, nothing was ever really going to stop him making his decisions, it was more lucky for him that our leaders were not willing to act earlier.
One thing i have always thought interesting is if the Germans demands for the Sudetenland had not been granted and they went to war with Czechoslovakia over them, since Czechoslovakia had a relatively strong and modern army and could have put up a very good fight i believe.Link to this forum: What were the three worst war mistakes ever made?
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Message 12
Posted by Jozef (U1330965) on Saturday, 20th August 2005
Jammy,
Tas asked us to pick three of the worst war mistakes and I agree with you on one point: French and British failure to support Czechoslovakia in 1938 would be my second worst mistake and the French failure to stop Germany retaking the Ruhr valley maybe the third (though that would make me appear to be WWII obsessed).
The fact of the matter is that even in 1939 the West was more than able to defeat Germany. The problem wasn't with the military resources, it was with the mentality. Like Nikolaos repeatedly says: it's not something most people here want to know. September 1939 is perhaps the worst mistake because the all-purpose 'benefit of hindsight' argument is least applicable. This really was the last call.
The British like to boast that it was Basil Lindell-Hart who actually invented Lighting War, so why the hell didn't they apply it? Surely you can't have it both ways. Surely that was a mistake. I found the rather disparaging remarks Lindell-Hart made about the Polish 1939 defeat particulary distasteful as the Poles certainly made a better impression on the Germans who then actually had to fight them and the same Germans were hardly so comlementary about the French and British effort in 1940. Hitler's (as indeed Stalin's) 'respect' for the British certainly plummeted after 1938, that's why he ventured to leave his western front exposed in 1939 and the 'respect' was certainly not restored in June 1940. Britain's 'finest hour' later that year was due the 'so few' among whom, interestingly, there were many Poles. And so we could go on right up to the end of the war, which was actually won by Hitler's 1939 ally.
Cheers, JozefLink to this forum: What were the three worst war mistakes ever made?
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Message 13
Posted by Binge-Drinker (U1655287) on Saturday, 20th August 2005
Cheers Nick - Church photographs taken by appointment.听
My, you are a fearless rebel! You don't do mosques or North Korean nuclear power plants as well perchance?听
Dear Jozef without an s
I have visited the French Nuclear plant at nearby Cap de la Hague, Normandy.
The infidels keep asking for a purpose built mosque here in Jersey, in other words they want some financial support because property here is a ridiculous price.
Cheers Nicolas or Nick never Nic, or NickyLink to this forum: What were the three worst war mistakes ever made?
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Message 14
Posted by Jozef (U1330965) on Saturday, 20th August 2005
Dear Jozef without an s
I have visited the French Nuclear plant at nearby Cap de la Hague, Normandy.
The infidels keep asking for a purpose built mosque here in Jersey, in other words they want some financial support because property here is a ridiculous price.
Cheers Nicolas or Nick never Nic, or Nicky听 Yeah, but did you take photos? Bit difficult taking a photo inside a mosque if they haven't built it yet, surely?Link to this forum: What were the three worst war mistakes ever made?
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Message 15
Posted by Jozef (U1330965) on Saturday, 20th August 2005
Oh and French nuclear plants aren't half as fascinating as N. Korean or Iranian ones. Highly recommended.
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Message 16
Posted by jammy (U1303992) on Sunday, 21st August 2005
Just wondering did you mean to say the German reoccupation of the Rhineland not the Ruhr? If you did then i don't think it made any sense for the French to attack as it would have started the war a lot earlier, and Britain just wasn't ready to help out. It would have put Germany on the back foot for a while, for we now know that Hitler ordered his troops to trun back if the French looked like opposing the reoccupation.
There are many times when the war may have started earlier if the ALlies had done different things, but this may not have been a good thing, Britain needed time to prepare for another war.Link to this forum: What were the three worst war mistakes ever made?
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Message 17
Posted by steveP (U1775134) on Sunday, 21st August 2005
jammy - replying to message 8
Actually, the biggest tactical mistake the Japanese made in ground fighting in the Pacific was to launch suicidal banzai counter attacks to try and regain lost land and die for the 'glory of the emperor' rather than a more purely defencive roll. A high proportion of their casualties were in such attacks against heavily defended US positions, with all the firepower they could call upon.
The toughest of the Pacific island battles is generally considered to be Iwo Jima. This was in large part because the Japanese commander, until his death, managed to impose some discipline on his men, especially his officers. They didn't oppose the initial landings, digging in deep in the Mts. further inland and forced the US to attack them.
It wouldn't have made a dramatic difference to the conflict. Not a major disaster like starting the war in the first place. It would have delayed the US advance and increasing their casualties markedly. In that way it could have been more disastrous for the Japanese as the US would have been even more warily of an invasion of the Japanese home islands so possibly a longer bombing campaign and more nuclear strikes. Possibly even a Soviet invasion of the northern island if the Japanese had been encouraged enough to cling on longer.
SteveLink to this forum: What were the three worst war mistakes ever made?
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Message 18
Posted by jammy (U1303992) on Sunday, 21st August 2005
a longer bombing campaign and more nuclear strikes.
听
I don't think this would've been possible since the Americans only had the 2 atomic bombs at the time i believe.Link to this forum: What were the three worst war mistakes ever made?
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Message 19
Posted by Polwanderer (U1734477) on Sunday, 21st August 2005
I'd also suggest British and French failure to invade Nazi Germany at the start of September 1939. 听
Or rather the Polish defence plan which tried to protect the whole country from the borders and so overextended the army lines. Although there was some relative success such as at Mokra the defensive line didn't hold against the new German tactics.Link to this forum: What were the three worst war mistakes ever made?
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Message 20
Posted by jammy (U1303992) on Sunday, 21st August 2005
I don't think anyone can honestly say that the Polish had any chance of victory. They didn't really have time to make a defence strategy. There was no way they were going to win and it wasn't so much down to their poor tactics, but the excellent German ones, that they lost. The Germans outnumbered them and had much better technologies, the Polish were still using cavalry on the battlefield whilst the Germans drove at them in tanks!
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Message 21
Posted by Tim of Acleah (U1736633) on Sunday, 21st August 2005
Hello Tas
there are so many that I thought I would confine myself to the British Isles.
1. Already mentioned but Harold Godwinson marching out to meet William at Senlac instead of staying in London and letting Willaim come tio get him. This has been debated on the old pages a lot but whatever Harold had done the outcome could not have proved any worst.
2. The Royalists failing to keep a substancial cavalry reserve at Edgehill. This was their best chance of winning the war at a stroke but the second lines in both cases charged off in headlong pursuit of the aready routed Parliamentary cavalry to no good purpose when if they had stayed in Reserve they could have been used to crush the Parliamentary infantry.
3. The Scottish army leaving their strong defensive position at Dunbar in 1650 under the guidance of the kirk confidence that out numbering Cromwell's army by 2 to 1 the 'Lord of Hosts' would give victory to the covanater army. The following morning the they were crushed by probably the best army England has ever fielded 11,000 English v 22,000 Scots English dead 40 to 60 Scotiish 3,000 killed and 10,000 prisoners.
I would also give mention to Richard III, doubt if Minette will read this one, giving command of his rearguard to the Percy, Duke of Northumberland.
By the way did you know that at a dinner held for the survivers of the chasrge of the Light Brigade 1800 people turned up, as only 600 started the charge that was quite a miracle!Link to this forum: What were the three worst war mistakes ever made?
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Message 22
Posted by Hasse (U1882612) on Sunday, 21st August 2005
Tas
My friend Its looks that you are recoverd from your stroke,the norns give you many more years.
A couple of mistakes that have changed history.
The murder of Stilico and Ateius,the two last great roman generals who stopped tha barbaric invasions of west Rome.
Karl XII of Sweden invassion of Russia by Ukraine instead going the nort route by balticum (Swedish terotory) losing the war and the empire.
Bobby Lee by not taking the eastern hills the first day,or leaving the battle advancing against Wasington the second day of Gettysburg.
Adolf by splitting the foces 41,and not leave the east command to von Mannstein after the spring 43.
Hannibal not marching to Rome after Cannae.
Their is much more,to choose between battles,but most battles arent desiceve,but this is just a few,I麓m excluding misstakes in Brittain since I think the board member are more qualified than me.Just a small thought,when talking about WWII most seems to think of Hitler like an idiot,wich is far from true evenn strict military speaking,an idiot dont gain that power and nearly wins a major war.Adolf was evil,but not an idiot.No children will get that name altough a lot of perfectly nice granfathers wore it in north Europa,its a bit funny thqat Josef is still OK altough the other ogre Stalin wore it.
HasseLink to this forum: What were the three worst war mistakes ever made?
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Message 23
Posted by Tas (U1753225) on Sunday, 21st August 2005
Dear Tim and Hes,
Thank you for some very original choices.
Tim, I did argue in discussion with young Craig, on the old board that Harold should have waited with more patient, till his Northern Earls and his other forces had a had time to gather and his Houscarls were better rested., and probably temporarily given the command to his brother who offered to go and give battle to Duke William.
Another battle that went badly was when Mark Antony and Cleopatra sought the naval forces of Octavious at Actium.
I guess medieval battles were like present day football matches, perhaps American football Super bowls. One great victory won by either the house of Lancaster or York was the battle of Taunton in which one side fired all its arrows, the other side than moved in and picked up those same arrows and fired them back at the attackers. I thought that was a wonderful example of medieval tactics. If Andrew Spencer has completed his honeymoon and has some time for us from his beautiful Welsh bride he could inform us about the details.
Once on this board I just mentioned that a battle in the war of the roses took place during a snowstorm and described the above tactics and he immediately wrote that was the battle of Taunton.
Yes Hes I am well recovered. I have been attending classes at the stroke prevention clinic. Canadian are very thorough. They are giving me every test in the book. I am in good hands! Thanks!
I am waiting for Caro to start my thread on Cricket.
TasLink to this forum: What were the three worst war mistakes ever made?
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Message 24
Posted by TonyG (U1830405) on Sunday, 21st August 2005
Therre are so many to choose from. My top three tactical blunders would be:
Custer at Little Big Horn - boy, did he get that wrong.
Elphinstone's retreat from Kabul.
Varus in the Teutoberger forest.
Flaminius walking into Hannbal's trap at Lake Trasimene wasn't too clever either.Link to this forum: What were the three worst war mistakes ever made?
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Message 25
Posted by Tas (U1753225) on Sunday, 21st August 2005
Hi Tony,
Some very original choices! You know that Chief Crazy Horse eventually found refuge in Canada after Little Big Horn.
TasLink to this forum: What were the three worst war mistakes ever made?
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Message 26
Posted by Jozef (U1330965) on Sunday, 21st August 2005
To Polwanderer and Jammy,
Wanderer,
Polish historians have been splitting hairs about the so-called September Campaign ever since mid October 1939. And indeed Polish GHQ made loads of mistakes: there was indecision and bad coordination as a result of which Army Group Poznan was no doubt needlessly cut off. And the fact that the Polish C-in-C fled before the fighting was over certainly didn鈥檛 help. But Jammy is right in saying that defeat was inevitable.
Poland was attacked from the west, from the north and from the south; then on September 17 it was also attacked from the east. How on earth could the Polish Army defend all these fronts at once? Even if it had had the best general command in the world, how much longer could it have held out? Two, three weeks at the most? And what difference would it make if the fighting stopped in late instead of early October?
True, Jammy, the Germans had far superior forces in terms of tanks and warplanes. And this was the first time many Blitzkrieg tactics, such as strafing refugee columns to slow army manoeuvres, were employed. But remarkably in those early days light panzer tanks could still be stopped with a high-velocity rifle, which a cavalryman could carry with ease. And that brings me to my main point鈥
Jammy,
You say that Britain needed time to prepare. So did everyone else, including Hitler. And the only difference was that Hitler was more desperate. Because Germany had lost the previous war it was worse off in every respect. A bit like FDR, Hitler gave the Germans a feel good effect largely through propaganda but also through Keynesian employment schemes, major state sponsored public works 鈥 the motorways and above all armaments. 鈥楪uns, not butter.鈥 But guns only produce dividends when they鈥檙e used. And it wasn鈥檛 so unforeseeable that sooner or later Hitler would have to use them or fail as a fuehrer.
Yes, you鈥檙e right, I meant the Rhineland (silly me). The French could have held on to the Rhineland if only they wanted too, Germany was far from ready.
Then, Munich 1938, again Germany was not ready for war, the Czechs had a modern army and excellent fortifications in a mountainous terrain. Don鈥檛 tell me that shameful sell out was not a mistake. So what if it came to war, Germany could not have taken Czechoslovakia by force if France and Britain had decided to help (France and the Soviet Union were both Czechoslovakia鈥檚 allies). And German military failure would have no doubt meant Hitler losing his job.
In the spring of 1939 Hitler breaks his promise and takes the rest of Bohemia and Moravia, and only then does the penny drop. In September the Germans invade Poland with plenty of Czech tanks (Skoda engines) so they鈥檙e much more prepared, but against Poland alone with Slovak and Soviet help, not against France and Britain. If at that late stage the former Entente powers still weren鈥檛 prepared it was nobody鈥檚 fault but their own, it was the most colossal war mistake I can think of. Not more than half a year later the German forces were battle hardened and buoyed by so many victories, and how much more prepared were the British and French?
Cheers, Jozef
PS: Wanderer, dispite the mistakes and none too brilliant C-in-C Rydz-Smigly, morale in the Polish Army was high and only they fought the Nazis from 1st Sept 1939 to 8th May 1945, so in that sense the so-called September Campaign wasn't such a total disaster.Link to this forum: What were the three worst war mistakes ever made?
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Message 27
Posted by Tim of Acleah (U1736633) on Sunday, 21st August 2005
Tas
the battle is Towton in Yorkshire in 1461 not Taunton in Somerset. It is argued to be the largest battle in English history. There was a snow storm and the wind was behind the Yorkists. The commander of the Yorkist archers, Falkenburg, ordered his men to fire a type of arrow that was only normally used at close range. The wind carried it into the Lancastrian lines and they concluded that the Yorksists must be much closer than they had realised and fired off all their arrows blindly into the snow storm where they fell well short.
Actullay the Wars of Roses was unique in English history for the number of battles affected by the weather. In addition to Snow at Towton there was fog at Barnet, rain at Northampton and the sun at Mortimore's CRoss.
Best regards
TimLink to this forum: What were the three worst war mistakes ever made?
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Message 28
Posted by Jozef (U1330965) on Monday, 22nd August 2005
Hi Hasse, Adolf was evil,but not an idiot.No children will get that name altough a lot of perfectly nice granfathers wore it in north Europa,its a bit funny thqat Josef is still OK altough the other ogre Stalin wore it.
听
Indeed, Stalin murdered far more people than Hitler, yet even today many people think he was somehow less evil than the German dictator. Why? Because he was more even handed in genocide and would even murder members of his own family? Or was it because he smoked a pipe and on occasions was known to drink a glass of Georgian wine, whereas Hitler was teetotal and a vegetarian? Or because, unlike Hitler, Stalin did not do amateur theatrics? Of course the other reason is the fact that, unlike Adolf, Stalin didn鈥檛 lose the Second World War. Moreover, this was a war the Western Allies helped him to win. After the war it was difficult to explain to children that 'Uncle Joe' was a mass murderer. It was difficult to explain that daddy bravely fought to help the world鈥檚 worst mass murderer defeat another mass murderer who was almost as bad.
Besides, Joseph has always been a far more popular name than Adolf because it appears in the Bible. Moreover, unlike Judas or Herod, the biblical Josephs are extremely positive characters. Have you ever heard of a Saint Adolf? Thus there were plenty of famous Josephs before Stalin came. For instance in Poland, where people have every reason to detest Stalin, Jozef was the name of a number of Polish icons, e.g. Jozef Poniatowski or Jozef Pilsudski. Even the Emperor Franz Joseph is remembered with some affection in southern Poland.
That鈥檚 my excuse anyway.
Cheers, JozefLink to this forum: What were the three worst war mistakes ever made?
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Message 29
Posted by DL (U1683040) on Monday, 22nd August 2005
Hi Tas,
Interesting post!
The biggest blunder in my opinion has to be Passchendaele in 1917. It is clearly Haig's most stupid plan. Not only does he throw away the lives of hundreds of thousands of men with his usual tactic of attacking machine guns with the chests of men, which by 1917 has already failed many many times, he chooses to carry out this folly in a reclaimed swamp!
So, the customary massive artillery bombardment simply destroys the intricate drainage network, and reduces the place to a swamp, then he sends infantry to attack the German lines (on the high ground as usual). Absolute stupidity. It is obvious to all by 1917 that frontal infantry assaults result in slaughter, yet not only does he attempt this again, he does it in a swamp, and continues the slaughter for months. An act of criminal stupidity.
Personally I can't comprehend how Haig could live with himself, after ordering so many futile attacks, and the death of so many men. The concept of attrition which he adhered to time and time again was a disgusting way to fight a war. I mean let's be honest about it-"We have 5 million men, they have 4.5 million, so if we wear them down and one man kills another, then we will have 500,000 men, and they will have none, so we will have won". Haig was an incompetent idiot, and the only General I can think of who was guilty of war crimes against his own army!
Best wishes,
DLLink to this forum: What were the three worst war mistakes ever made?
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Message 30
Posted by jammy (U1303992) on Monday, 22nd August 2005
Actullay the Wars of Roses was unique in English history for the number of battles affected by the weather.
听
Well a strange comment to make since all battles are affected by the weather.Link to this forum: What were the three worst war mistakes ever made?
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Message 31
Posted by jammy (U1303992) on Monday, 22nd August 2005
Hi Tas,
Interesting post!
The biggest blunder in my opinion has to be Passchendaele in 1917. It is clearly Haig's most stupid plan. Not only does he throw away the lives of hundreds of thousands of men with his usual tactic of attacking machine guns with the chests of men, which by 1917 has already failed many many times, he chooses to carry out this folly in a reclaimed swamp!
So, the customary massive artillery bombardment simply destroys the intricate drainage network, and reduces the place to a swamp, then he sends infantry to attack the German lines (on the high ground as usual). Absolute stupidity. It is obvious to all by 1917 that frontal infantry assaults result in slaughter, yet not only does he attempt this again, he does it in a swamp, and continues the slaughter for months. An act of criminal stupidity.
Personally I can't comprehend how Haig could live with himself, after ordering so many futile attacks, and the death of so many men. The concept of attrition which he adhered to time and time again was a disgusting way to fight a war. I mean let's be honest about it-"We have 5 million men, they have 4.5 million, so if we wear them down and one man kills another, then we will have 500,000 men, and they will have none, so we will have won". Haig was an incompetent idiot, and the only General I can think of who was guilty of war crimes against his own army!
Best wishes,
DL听
Yes this is what everyone says about Haig at first, but i did quite a bit of research for this for my GCSE history coursework. Certainly, Haig wasn't the best choice as commander of the army. He was quite old fashioned and despite being keen on using the tank for example it took him some time to realise they should be used in concentrated groups.
Haig is not the monster he is made out to be (before his death he was considered a hero, not until Lloyd George who always disliked Haig persoanlly, published his scathing memoirs did public opinion turn against Haig). Haig was often let down by those around him. There was one advisor of his (can't remember the name) who provided Haig with falsely optimistic reports about the outcome of offences, such as the Somme, where he made out all was going well, so of course Haig orders the assault to be continued. Haig did not think, ah, i know i'll send another couple of thousand men to their deaths today, he had been led to believe that his past tactics had worked well, so of course, he thought, why change them.
He wasn't a natural leader and not the best choice for Field Marshall, but he wasn't a monster.Link to this forum: What were the three worst war mistakes ever made?
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Message 32
Posted by Tas (U1753225) on Monday, 22nd August 2005
the battle is Towton in Yorkshire in 1461 not Taunton in Somerset.
听
HI Tim.
Thanks for setting me straight about the difference between Taunton and Towton. I had heard of Taunton but knew nothing about Towton.
Since you seem to know a lot about the War of the Roses and I am always interested in medieval battles and the tactics used in them, I Have a few questions on that War: Were all or most battles won by the Yorkists or did the Lancastrians win any of the battles. I know that at Tewkesbury the Yorkists won a decisive battle. Is Tewkesbury also in Yorkshire? Did Henry VI play any role in any of the battles? I vaguely remember that his Queen Margaret was a very active figure in that War.
I always enjoy reading your posts. They are often so informative and I am always trying to get information on all sorts of things from people who are knowledgeable. My best regards,
TasLink to this forum: What were the three worst war mistakes ever made?
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Message 33
Posted by Tas (U1753225) on Monday, 22nd August 2005
Reply to message 29:
Dear DL,
There were a lot of bad Generals on both sides in WW1. Their fault was that they had little imagination. Sending the flower of Western Manhood to be mowed down by machine guns time and time again was in hindsight asinine.
I saw a film (鈥淧aths of Glory鈥 with Kirk Douglas) in which a French General asked his artillery to fire on his own men so that they do not retreat. I think that whole war was a bad mistake by all sides, including Britain. The Weakening of the British Empire. Commenced from that war. Before WW1 Britain was indeed a Great Power, perhaps the greatest. The British position started declining after winning that war and after WW2 Britain became inextricably bound with American policies. This position was accelerated after the Suez Crisis.
I for one mourn the loss of the British Empire, because in those days things were so stable and it was an era of Peace and Prosperity.
All the best,
TasLink to this forum: What were the three worst war mistakes ever made?
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Message 34
Posted by Tas (U1753225) on Monday, 22nd August 2005
Tas
My friend Its looks that you are recoverd from your stroke,the norns give you many more years.
Karl XII of Sweden invassion of Russia by Ukraine instead going the nort route by balticum (Swedish terotory) losing the war and the empire.
Bobby Lee by not taking the eastern hills the first day,or leaving the battle advancing against Wasington the second day of Gettysburg.
Adolf by splitting the foces 41,and not leave the east command to von Mannstein after the spring 43.
听
Hi Hasse,
Sorry I took your message as coming from John Hes; I should have known when you mentioned Karl XII of Sweden it was you.
Regarding Gettysburg, I have visited the Battlefield several times and done a lot of investigating: one of the big mistakes made by Lee was not to agree to a flanking attack on the Right flank by General longstreet. He should not have ordered Longstreet to attack the hill called 'Little Round Top'. Another error of Judgement was ordering Pickett to charge across an open field at the entrenched Union forces of General Hancock.
He was of course blind-sided by his Cavalry commander who did not provide him any good reconnaissance information. Best regards,
TasLink to this forum: What were the three worst war mistakes ever made?
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Message 35
Posted by DL (U1683040) on Monday, 22nd August 2005
Hi Tas and Jammy,
I'm not sure whether I have come across badly on this one. I don't believe Haig was a monster, but he was simply not intelligent or imaginative a man to be in the position of power he held in 1914-18. His appointment as Field Marshal was a catastrophic error, as he was a very poor commander. His decisions were poor, his abilities as a military commander were non-existent (the man still believed in using cavalry against machine guns, artillery and chemical weapons for Gods sake!). He should have been removed after the Somme, and I would suggest that things would only have improved if someone with the flair to fight trench warfare successfully had been his replacement. Plumer would be my choice, his attack at Messines prior to the disaster at Passchendaele was a masterpiece in 20th century siege warfare. Granted the attack took years to prepare, but as usual, when a possibility of a breakthrough into open country occurred, Haig didn't see it!
Unfortunately for hundreds of thousands of men, Haig was secure in his post no matter how many men he threw away, his friendship with the Royal family ensured this. He was a competent administrator, but to put it bluntly, Haig was an absolute muppet when it came to modern warfare.
Tas, agreed utterly that the whole war was a mistake (IMO the entente cordiale was a mistake, Germany was Britain's natural ally, not enemy, and this historical allegience combined with the family connection should have maintained this, whereas France had always been the opposite-we switched sides and the result was war.)
Cheers
DLLink to this forum: What were the three worst war mistakes ever made?
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Message 36
Posted by Tas (U1753225) on Monday, 22nd August 2005
Tas, agreed utterly that the whole war was a mistake (IMO the entente cordiale was a mistake, Germany was Britain's natural ally, not enemy, and this historical allegience combined with the family connection should have maintained this, whereas France had always been the opposite-we switched sides and the result was war.)
Cheers
DL听
Hi DL,
I could not agree with you more. One person who saw this inside the British Cabinet was Lord Haldane, Asquith's War minister. If Britain had stayed out of that conflict, they could have come in at the end to get all the sides to the Peace table and would have been the strongest party at that table. I think what got Britain into the War was likely several factors. Among these were the big competition with the new Germany to build more and better Dreadnoughts, the fact that the Kaiser had let his brilliant Chancellor Bismark go and perhaps the family rivalry between the Kaiser and his uncle Edward VII. Also at that time people still believed in the glory of War. Very sad the whole thing. Britain lost a whole generation of its best and brightest young men. One thing positive at least; the war did bring women into the forefront and we lost the long skirt.
TasLink to this forum: What were the three worst war mistakes ever made?
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Message 37
Posted by SmegheadRed (U1879559) on Monday, 22nd August 2005
I must admit that my history knowledge is strictly focussed on the Second World War, so here goes.
Firstly, I would think that Operation Huskey, the Allied invasion of Sicily would be one because it delayed Overlord. I think the Allies had a chance to invade France in 1943, particularly after the German debacle at Kursk.
Secondly Hitler's stopping of his Panzers in front of Dunkirk when the possibility of destroying or capturing the BEF was there.
Thirdly, the Japanese decision to attack Pearl Harbour at all; the Americans were always going to pursure the Pacific war to its ultimate end after they had been ambushed at Pearl Harbour.
Any thoughts?Link to this forum: What were the three worst war mistakes ever made?
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Message 38
Posted by Tas (U1753225) on Monday, 22nd August 2005
Dear Smeghead,
You certainly hit the nail on the head with Pearl Harbor. How could we all have missed that. It is so obvious! Thanks for some good input.
TasLink to this forum: What were the three worst war mistakes ever made?
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Message 39
Posted by SmegheadRed (U1879559) on Monday, 22nd August 2005
Flattery will get you everywhere!
SmegLink to this forum: What were the three worst war mistakes ever made?
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Message 40
Posted by steveP (U1775134) on Monday, 22nd August 2005
Tas, DL
I would have to disagree with you here. In many ways Germany should have been a natural ally as both had rivalries with France and Russia, Germany on the continent and Britain at sea and in the colonial sphere. Also, under Bismarck Germany was largely a sated power seeking to maintain the balance of power.
However this all changed under Wilhelm II. Not totally his fault as the militarization of German society would always make it an uncomfortable neighbour. Why he fell for Tirpitz's insistence on building a big navy, which could only antagonise Britain I don't understand, nor why the German military were not able/willing to oppose this. If nothing else the resources the navy consumed would have been very useful for the army.
I can't agree that Britain would have been better off standing aside in 1914. Possibly not in 1914 but in a couple of years at the latest the central powers would have won and with much less losses than they had suffered historically by that time. This would have meant a German dominated Europe with much of eastern France and Belgium, as well as eastern Europe occupied by Germany and the bulk of the rest very much under their thumb. Under those circumstances you would have had the nightmare of a single power dominating the continent, including controlling the channel ports. Also being the greatest industrial power it would then have been in a position to out-build the RN and render Britain's position very weak.
SteveLink to this forum: What were the three worst war mistakes ever made?
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Message 41
Posted by Tas (U1753225) on Monday, 22nd August 2005
Tas, DL....
I can't agree that Britain would have been better off standing aside in 1914. Possibly not in 1914 but in a couple of years at the latest the central powers would have won and with much less losses than they had suffered historically by that time. This would have meant a German dominated Europe with much of eastern France and Belgium, as well as eastern Europe occupied by Germany and the bulk of the rest very much under their thumb. Under those circumstances you would have had the nightmare of a single power dominating the continent, including controlling the channel ports. Also being the greatest industrial power it would then have been in a position to out-build the RN and render Britain's position very weak.
Steve
听
Dear Steve,
that is a very good analysis. I would suggest that some delicate diplomacy much earlier with Germany to establish the terms of a kind of co-existence on terms each side clearly understood, may have been to the benefit of both parties. A kind of division of the spheres of influence, and what were the vital interest of each side. Perhaps in that way ruinous race for more and better battleships may have been avoided. Unfortunately even music hall songs in the pre-war period were oriented towards creating more antagonism.
The lesson from all this probably is that even great powers should think very carefully before embarking on war, as the current events in Iraq and the War waged in Vietnam seem to have emphasized.
TasLink to this forum: What were the three worst war mistakes ever made?
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Message 42
Posted by DL (U1683040) on Tuesday, 23rd August 2005
Hi Tas and Steve,
Very good points Steve, could lead to an interesting "what if?" perhaps? Having read through Steve's take on this one, I think that there is little chance of Britain remaining totally neutral, the US found that impossible and they are thousands of miles away! Another possibility, and one which strikes me as much more logical than the way it actually happened would be this.
Given the history of alliances between Britain and Prussia, plus the family link between the Kaiser and the King, how likely could it be that they combine to deal with the "Old Enemy" once and for all? If, for example, the Germans enter into a full alliance with Britain, Austria-Hungary and Russia? All the great monarchies of Europe united against the perennial troublemaker, Republican France. I would personally doubt this happening because this would mean Britain's imperialist tendencies rearing their head closer to home, and a Britain wanting to expand onto continental Europe would be not a good thing!
However, for the sake of imagination, picture this, August 1914, and the BEF deploys to Europe, landing in north Germany. It is then rushed south along with the main German armies, and together they advance into France through the Ardennes. The British Empire mobilizes its colonial forces, and France's imperial possessions are carved up by the British and Germans. Austria Hungary moves into Serbia, and without Russian support, Serbia collapses. The Battle of the Marne happens as in reality, but this time, the outcome is different...
How different the world would be...
Best Wishes
DLLink to this forum: What were the three worst war mistakes ever made?
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Message 43
Posted by Ninja-Badger (U1689794) on Tuesday, 23rd August 2005
I'm tempted to say Dien Bien Phu.
Much like Market Garden, had it worked it would have been a great success, but the problems which occured in terms of air support, availability of reserves, problems with auxilliary troops etc plus the underestimation of the enemy meant that the French position in Indo-China was irrevocably altered.Link to this forum: What were the three worst war mistakes ever made?
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Message 44
Posted by Gilgamesh of Uruk (U211168) on Tuesday, 23rd August 2005
Lopes' decision to launch the War of the Triple Alliance rates pretty high up the list. Actually, I'm sure that deciding to go to war is frequently the greatest mistake.
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Message 45
Posted by Hasse (U1882612) on Tuesday, 23rd August 2005
Jozef
You are right Adolf isnt in the bible,it a germanic name meaning nobel wolf.
In Sweden have we in our history had more famous Adolfs than Josef,not at least a couple of our kings,and as prevously stated a score of perfectly granddads,including my own.
But I agree If a child would get the name Adolf I would wonder if the parents was idiots or worse Nazis,not so with Josef,altough in my book do I rate Stalin a bit worse than Hitler.
You probably did solve the problem with that Hitler did lose but Stalin won.
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Message 46
Posted by Tas (U1753225) on Tuesday, 23rd August 2005
Hi Hasse,
I doubt if we can say Stalin won. For a time he reigned supreme over the intellectuals of Europe because they hated Hitler far more. But once Hitler was taken care of Stalin started losing many intellectuals that had sided with him, like Albert Camus and his closest people like Khruschev and many others. It is believed he was killed by his own doctor's plot against him. Even his daughter was against him. That is indeed sad.
Best wishes,
TasLink to this forum: What were the three worst war mistakes ever made?
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Message 47
Posted by jesw1962 (U1726423) on Tuesday, 23rd August 2005
I'd also suggest British and French failure to invade Nazi Germany at the start of September 1939. 听
Jozef: Thank you very much! I have always wondered what might have happened if France had launched an "All out" attack, using the armour theories advanced by DeGaulle, and England had launched a sea-born invasion from the north, (or maybe south from Denmark.
Assuming this had happened within 96 hours of the German invasion of Poland it might have been interesting.Link to this forum: What were the three worst war mistakes ever made?
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Message 48
Posted by clankylad (U1778100) on Tuesday, 23rd August 2005
What about Germany's declaration of war on the US in WWII?
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Message 49
Posted by Gilgamesh of Uruk (U211168) on Tuesday, 23rd August 2005
It suggests something else to me. Since the French had spent a fortune on the Maginot Line, and had absorbed the "Maginot mindset" so thoroughly that there was never any likelihood that they would act aggressively, was building the line in the first place a greater mistake than depending on it in time of war?
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Message 50
Posted by jesw1962 (U1726423) on Tuesday, 23rd August 2005
Thims: EXCELLENT point!
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