Wars and ConflictsΜύ permalink
Killing the Bismarck
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Message 1.Μύ
Posted by Triceratops (U3420301) on Sunday, 4th December 2011
Has anyone else read this book by Iain Ballantyne?
I thoroughly enjoyed it. It tells the story of the pursuit of the Bismarck from the viewpoint of the officers and men of the Royal Navy. Anyone interested in this episode of history should try and read it.
It also has the first publication of a mystery photograph taken from HMS Norfolk,
there is an article about it on this link;
This is footage taken from Prinz Eugen
The Denmark Strait battle starts about 2'49"
And a short film about HMS Hood incorporating other footage from Prinz Eugen immediately after Hood blows up,followed by an interview with AS Tillburn, one of the 3 survivors
btw in the film "Sink the Bismarck" the actor Esmond Knight who plays Captain Leach of the Prince of Wales, was on the Prince in real life and was seriously injured at the Denmark Strait
note also Dr Who' s lucky transfer off the Hood -
Message 2
Posted by sinbadnick (U14506866) on Sunday, 4th December 2011
From one who was there, quite a lot has been written by people who were
not there when this action took place' but the thing that has always amazed me
is the fact that the ship which got very little mention about its part in the action
was the very old H.M.S Rodney and she lay off our bows and was firing at the same time as we were and I could see her massive shells smashing the heart
out of the Bismark and we alone fired 254 8* shells into her but I have always
said that the Rodney should have had most of the praise for the sinking of
the Bismark she might have been old but she was magificent .
My ship was H.M.S Dorsetshire who stayed behind to pick up most of the
survivors from the Bismark. -
Message 3
Posted by Triceratops (U3420301) on Monday, 5th December 2011
Hello Nick,
In this book, HMS Rodney gets the bulk of the credit for sinking Bismarck.
In fact, it suggests that Rodney didn't get the credit she deserved at the time, because that would have diminished KGV's part.
Were you still with Dorsetshire in the Ceylon Sea? One of Bismarck's survivors is supposed to have said "Us today, you tomorrow" after being rescued by Dorsetshire. A forecast that came true.
Trike. -
Message 4
Posted by Sambista (U4068266) on Monday, 5th December 2011
There are a couple of odd things about Rodney's part in the sinking.
Firstly, her captain followed Nelson's example by leaving the line of battle (to open the "A" arcs of all three 16" turrets), and secondly, she attempted to use her 24" torpedoes on the Bismarck - fairly unusual piece of ordnance to use in a battleship action. -
Message 5
Posted by sinbadnick (U14506866) on Monday, 5th December 2011
hello Trike
Very pleased to hear of the praise for the old Rodney she realy deserved it
But in answer to the number 4s question about the Rodney attempting to
use her torpedoe's I doubt that very much apart from the fact that it was a
fairly rough sea it was doughtful that she would have succeded in hitting the
target from the position that she lay during the action' and on the orders of the
admiral Dorsetshire was ordered to close in and finish her off' and two tin fish
were fired onto her from the starboard side and round her bows we went and fired one into her port side and then we lay off and watched her turn over onto
her starboard side with hundred of men still clinging to her brilliant red
underside' a sight that I will never forget and has she slowly sank beneath
those rough waves hundreds of bodies floating on the surface with the living
trying to get to the Dorsetshire stopped in the water a great target for any U'boat -
Message 6
Posted by Triceratops (U3420301) on Wednesday, 7th December 2011
Nick and Ur,
I had to go back to the library and get the book out again.
There's one possible hit from Rodney's torpedoes at 9.40am, observed by Lt Ruffer on Norfolk. Rodney fires a further three between 9.51 and 9.55, then a fourth at 9.57, claiming one hit at 9.58. At about the same time, Dorsetshire turns to avoid a torpedo, which passes down her port side,Dorsetshire being fired at by Bismarck's secondary armament [Bismarck salvoes over]. Norfolk fires four torpedoes at 10.10 claiming two hits, then Dorsetshire hits three times as Nick described.
from the notes; David Mearns, in his book "Hood and Bismarck", says up to nine [including Swordfish] torpedoes hit Bismarck overall, following an ROV dive in 2001.
Trike. -
Message 7
Posted by VF (U5759986) on Monday, 12th December 2011
There are a couple of odd things about Rodney's part in the sinking.
Firstly, her captain followed Nelson's example by leaving the line of battle (to open the "A" arcs of all three 16" turrets), and secondly, she attempted to use her 24" torpedoes on the Bismarck - fairly unusual piece of ordnance to use in a battleship action.Μύ I was always under the impression that Tovey had always intended this and had hoped that Holland would do the same at the Battle of the Denmark Strait (to work independently from the flagship).Im sure that I've read somewhere that He (Tovey) even considered signalling his concerns to Holland,but thought better of it.
Admiral Holland as we know didn't allow HMS Prince of Wales to act independently and kept a close formation.Would it have made a difference ? Who knows,but it may have left Lutjens with more of quandry. Could he have concentrated on the older vessel whilst a modern 3rd generation battleship was closing the range,or would he split his fire,or simply ran for it and hoped for the best?
A good book,with an interesting point of view of HMS Rodney. As for the torpedo's Rodney's sailors reckon they got a hit before the sluice doors jammed rendering the tube inoperable due to shock damage from her own guns!
If anybody fancies a good read try and get a copy of "HMS Hood" by Bruce Taylor,very informative,beautiful pictures,first hand accounts and appears to be a very reliable source of info.
Nick, nice to see you back. -
Message 8
Posted by CASSEROLEON (U11049737) on Monday, 12th December 2011
My ex-neighbour from over the road, who died about 17 years ago, said that he was on a mine-sweeper that received a message ordering all available vessels to head for the location of the Bismarck- and he recalled how worried they were, just hoping that, when they arrived, they would not be taking on the superbattleship all on their own. This was before "kami kaze".
Does that sound right? You guys seem to be 'au fait' with the vessels in the action.
Cass -
Message 9
Posted by Sambista (U4068266) on Tuesday, 13th December 2011
Bearing in mind the known deficiencies in Hood's horizontal armour, she should probably have tried to close the range as fast as possible, as in actuality, whilst PoW turned onto a parallel course to the Germans - this would also have improved the seperatio to allow at least a modicum of flank-marking.
Cass - probably not expected to engage Bismarck, but don't forget all available U-boats were ordered to close on her position, that's one of the reasons so few were rescued - the vessels didn't dare stop and invite an Aboukir/Hogue/Cressy event. A sweeper would be a valuable addition to the screen. -
Message 10
Posted by sinbadnick (U14506866) on Tuesday, 13th December 2011
Yes a sweeper might have been of some use in picking up the Bismarks
survivors but it was a very rough sea they would have been tossed about like a cork, now the reason that the Dorsetshire was stopped in the water for avery
long time picking up the 87 survivors was that we were ordered to do so by
the Admiral every'one else scarpered for England be'cause a signal was
supposed to have been sent out by the Germans that planes and U'boats
were on the way and and that the Dorsetshire was not going to reach the
English coast " and yet we were doing them a good turn, and I have actualy
recieved an E' mail from a german asking me why the Dorsetshire did'nt stop
to pick some more survivors up and my answer to him was' after we spotted
what was deemed to be a periscope traveling through the water, My answer
was would that Gerry Submarine skipper let us carry on picking up those
remaining survivors. " Now you tell me"
Do'nt forget one of our ships that was mistaken for the Dorsetsshire was attacked by enemy aircraft and sustained some damage after the action. -
Message 11
Posted by CASSEROLEON (U11049737) on Tuesday, 13th December 2011
Ur-lugal
Yes.. As I understand it the Bismarck had lost some maneouvrability and so its course could not be logically predicted- the only thing would be to try to keep her under observation.. But- as I understand it already in the days of the Dreadnought such a battleship might be able to sink anything that it could see 20 miles or so... But presumably the order that brought all available vessels heading towards that focal point was the best way of covering any course that the Bismarck managed to take from there.
By the way have you read what Harold Nicholson says about the sinking.. He was at the ministry of information and some American reporters had rushed to the Admiralty to try to see whether they could get some photos to publish- Good publicity.. They really felt that they were being "fobbed off" and insisted that some planes flying over must have filmed or photographed.. Eventually the Naval man - at a loss to understand the US voyerism that has now become so standard- said. "But surely you can see, you must see, that no British person could rejoice at the sight of a great ship sinking like that"...
Victory is surely both bitter and sweet when it means the death of enemies who belong to the brotherhood of the sea.
Cass -
Message 12
Posted by Sambista (U4068266) on Tuesday, 13th December 2011
No - both of you are missing the point about the sweeper. The more vessels - particularly small vessels steering courses at their captain's whim - in the area, the less chance of a U-boat being able to get into a firing position on one of the heavy units. Most sweepers, the larger sea-going ones at least, also had asdic and at least a limited outfit of DCs, further restricting Herr Kaleut's ability to operate (actually, it seems that one U-boat did sight Ark Royal on a steady course steaming to get her stringbags into action - but she was out of "eels" at the time.)
-
Message 13
Posted by CASSEROLEON (U11049737) on Tuesday, 13th December 2011
Ur-Lugal
Thanks for that insight.. It fits.. But I believe that the order was to all vessels who were within any kind of sailing range of the place where the planes had spotted the Bismarck.. As Len remembered it that was what the Captain told the crew. A signal had called any and every Royal Naval vessel to sail towards the Bismarck. Whether or not the Admiralty had a clear picture of the "fleet" that they might assemble, the crew faced up to the reality of war which is that best laid plans go awry, and when there are no plans at all ......!!!!
It makes me think of an old Cardiff joke.. One Saturday night the police found a naked man wandering near the castle area. They asked him what he was doing there all on his own. He said that he could not really understand it himself. He had been at a wild party with lots of drinking and strip poker until everyone was naked. "Then someone said 'Now let's go to town! . And it seems I'm the first one here."
Len and his Minesweeper mates may have anticipated the possibility of being similarly on their own and exposed.
Cass -
Message 14
Posted by VF (U5759986) on Wednesday, 14th December 2011
Bearing in mind the known deficiencies in Hood's horizontal armour, she should probably have tried to close the range as fast as possible, as in actuality, whilst PoW turned onto a parallel course to the Germans - this would also have improved the seperatio to allow at least a modicum of flank-marking.
Cass - probably not expected to engage Bismarck, but don't forget all available U-boats were ordered to close on her position, that's one of the reasons so few were rescued - the vessels didn't dare stop and invite an Aboukir/Hogue/Cressy event. A sweeper would be a valuable addition to the screen.Μύ Mmm.
Hoods best chance (only chance) was to close the range as fast as possible and hope that she didn't take any big hits. Admiral Holland had been unlucky in the fact that HMS Suffolk had lost contact for a period of time which meant that when dawn came his force's position was such that he could neither easily close down the range quickly nor could he cross the Bismarck's "T". Its been recently hypothesised by some that Hood's final turn was enough to heel her to such a degree that the main armoured belt could be pierced outright or that the shell could pass beneath.
In any case keeping his force in close formation made it easier for the Germans to engage. I have a feeling that it was Tovey who stated that he "just didnt understand Hollands tactics at that action". -
Message 15
Posted by Sambista (U4068266) on Wednesday, 14th December 2011
VF - The loss of contact also prompted Holland to send his destroyers to refuel. Wargamers seem convinced that, with them there, and at least Norfolk entering the fray, Holland's original plan, with the German vessels outlined against the dawn, and his in the dark, crossing the "T", as you say, Bismarck and Lutjens get terminated with extreme prejudice, though Prinz Eugen can probably outrun her pursuers and escape,
-
Message 16
Posted by LongWeekend (U3023428) on Wednesday, 14th December 2011
Triceratops
Forgive me for this, but I cannot resist a mention of Jonny Horton's quite incredible musical tribute to the battle, released at around the same time as the US release of the film.
For those who have not experienced this:
I'll see myself out.
LW -
Message 17
Posted by Sambista (U4068266) on Wednesday, 14th December 2011
Yes, I remember it from when it was first released - or should I say escaped?
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Message 18
Posted by VF (U5759986) on Sunday, 18th December 2011
VF - The loss of contact also prompted Holland to send his destroyers to refuel. Wargamers seem convinced that, with them there, and at least Norfolk entering the fray, Holland's original plan, with the German vessels outlined against the dawn, and his in the dark, crossing the "T", as you say, Bismarck and Lutjens get terminated with extreme prejudice, though Prinz Eugen can probably outrun her pursuers and escape,Μύ There can be a fine line between success and failure and Holland certainly didn't seem to have any luck whatsoever. Had Hood been able to close quicker I don't doubt that she would have taken a battering however Bismarck,thousands of miles from home in the Atlantic would be in real trouble as any serious damage would leave her at the mercy of other RN units.
I think that HMS Prince of Wales gets a bad rap from some quarters but actually for a brand new ship with builders still on board and non functioning shell rings in her main turrets she did remarkably well,indeed one of her hits was put the kibosh on Bismarck's whole operation and led to a chain of events that eventually sank her.Perhaps she has been considered an unlucky ship due to her sinking off Malaya.She was certainly unfortunate that a single torpedo caused such massive flooding and damage so early on. -
Message 19
Posted by Triceratops (U3420301) on Monday, 19th December 2011
I've been neglecting the thread.
One thing about the Denmark Strait battle is that Hood opened fire on Prinz Eugen mistaking the lead German ship as Bismarck. Both German vessels having similar shapes. Prinz Eugen herself scored the first hit starting a fire in Hood's amidships.
This is some Pathe newsreel of the time at the end of the chase;
VF, that reminds me. Still to read Martin Middlebrook's book about Prince of Wales and Repulse in the Far East.
LW, it's a great song.
Trike. -
Message 20
Posted by Sambista (U4068266) on Monday, 19th December 2011
Perhaps she has been considered an unlucky ship due to her sinking off Malaya.She was certainly unfortunate that a single torpedo caused such massive flooding and damage so early on. Μύ
IIRC the torpedo struck one of PoW's "A" brackets and allowed the shaft to flail about opening a much more massive hole - and the ring main fuses failed to blow, disabling all her after AA mountings, too. -
Message 21
Posted by VF (U5759986) on Monday, 19th December 2011
Perhaps she has been considered an unlucky ship due to her sinking off Malaya.She was certainly unfortunate that a single torpedo caused such massive flooding and damage so early on. Μύ
IIRC the torpedo struck one of PoW's "A" brackets and allowed the shaft to flail about opening a much more massive hole - and the ring main fuses failed to blow, disabling all her after AA mountings, too.Μύ Did you read the recent online report in regards to POW? Very, very interesting. -
Message 22
Posted by VF (U5759986) on Monday, 19th December 2011
This is the link for those who are interested.
Vf -
Message 23
Posted by VF (U5759986) on Monday, 19th December 2011
VF, that reminds me. Still to read Martin Middlebrook's book about Prince of Wales and Repulse in the Far EastΜύ
Very good read! -
Message 24
Posted by Sambista (U4068266) on Monday, 19th December 2011
This is the link for those who are interested.
Vf
Μύ Thanks for that, VF.
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