Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔ

Wars and ConflictsΒ  permalink

WW2- again. Corruption, theft ad other deplorable behaviour.

• Message 1.Β 

  Posted by Priscilla (U14315550) on Tuesday, 22nd November 2011

  Deducedf from recent reading there were instances of allied forces suffering because of large scale theft. One instance in particular was noted in the goings on in Paris after liberation. From top brass to truck drivers there was great theft - and all this whilst colleagues were slogging it out in the Ardennes - and short of supplies Fuel, food and many trucks with their loads went missing.
  
  Was there much of this going on in the British services?
  
  My father said that though not supposed to ,where they could they gave medical aid to local people in distress otherwise pilfering was not an issue in his outfit - mainly because they did not have a largesse of supplies anyway.
  
  Regards, P.

  Link to this forum: WW2- again. Corruption, theft ad other deplorable behaviour.

  Report message1

• Message 2

  , in reply to message 1.

  Posted by Meles meles (U14993979) on Tuesday, 22nd November 2011

  My father, RAF ground crew, recalled an occasion when they were doing an engine test on a Lysander, during which the engine was run for a short period on full power with flames coming out the exhausts. The Lysander started to scorch a bit – this wasn't particularly uncommon – but when someone threw the contents of a fire-bucket onto the plane to cool it off the whole lot when up in flames and the plane was badly damaged. The fire-bucket had been full of petrol. It emerged that the Flight Sergeant had a scam going to provide his car with petrol. The Flight Seargent was duly court-marshalled but such was the need for pilots that he was not dismissed and indeed later earned himself a medal for some bit of daring later in the war.
  
  Apart from this isolated incident he never mentioned any other occasions of theft or even petty pilfering by service personnel. By civillians, yes occasionally, but not by servicemen.
  
  

  Link to this forum: WW2- again. Corruption, theft ad other deplorable behaviour.

  Report message2

• Message 3

  , in reply to message 2.

  Posted by CASSEROLEON (U11049737) on Tuesday, 22nd November 2011

  Priscilla
  
  The 1955 novel "Emmene-moi au bout du monde!" by Blaise Cendrars makes a big thing of US forces personnel bringing all kinds of material into Paris...
  
  Of course in the UK GI's "over-sexed and over-here" were noted for the free-gifts that were most welcome to a UK in rationing..
  
  I am not aware that John Steinbeck did "investigative journalism" in his time as a war reporter. One gets the impression that merely observing provided enough material and his reports from the campaigns in the South of Italy featured the collecting of "souvenirs" that the GI's were determined to take back home.. As if their "kit" was not enough some infantrymen doubled their load, including one spectacular GI who tried fighting his way up the Peninsular carrying a full-length gilt-framed mirror of which he was very proud.
  
  
  But you may remember the Liverpool docks controversies over the traditional right of labourers to help themselves to up to 10% of the goods in transit. Traders accounted for up to 10% losses by mishap and misadventure, and if the dock labourers managed to achieve 100% efficiency then the 10% was their bonus by right. But in these days of everyone knowing their rights perks and tips are frowned upon, and quality service and workmanship is increasingly rare.
  
  Cass

  Link to this forum: WW2- again. Corruption, theft ad other deplorable behaviour.

  Report message3

• Message 4

  , in reply to message 3.

  Posted by Sambista (U4068266) on Tuesday, 22nd November 2011

  In Quartered Safe Out Here by George MacDonald Fraser there's an account of a supply drop, and how his unit pilfered tinned fish, tea, sugar, cigarettes etc. I suspect this was fairly common.

  Link to this forum: WW2- again. Corruption, theft ad other deplorable behaviour.

  Report message4

• Message 5

  , in reply to message 4.

  Posted by CASSEROLEON (U11049737) on Tuesday, 22nd November 2011

  Ur-Lugal
  
  I agree.. It has often been said that "truth is the first casualty of war".. But I think that other peace-time norms tend to seem less significant too..
  
  But rather like some of the comments on this summer's riots in the UK what really angered people was not people taking some things that they needed in order to get by, but people trying to be war-time profiteers.
  
  As I inferred from my previous posts in conditions of war even more than peace anyone wishing to ensure that adequate munitions were available would have to over-supply in order to cover for the unforeseen circumstances of war.
  
  Not perhaps totally relevant, but my father-in-law as a teenager in German occupied France got to know which German sentries at the nearby railway sidings just turned and looked the other way when French locals helped themselves to a bag of coal in order to get through the continental winter conditions in Eastern France.
  
  Cass

  Link to this forum: WW2- again. Corruption, theft ad other deplorable behaviour.

  Report message5

• Message 6

  , in reply to message 1.

  Posted by LongWeekend (U3023428) on Thursday, 24th November 2011

  Priscilla
  
  Sadly, yes. The military had a lot of supplies that were unavailable to civilians, and there was a lot of opportunity to divert stuff, just as there was in civilian docks and warehouses.
  
  Conscription brought criminals into the ranks, and soldiers in any case are not necessarily law-abiding. Links back into organised crime made disposing of goods relatively easy, and even a single soldier with a nicked can of petrol, or rations, could flog it in a pub.
  
  A US colleague's father who was a police detective but also in a National Guard Infantry Division answered a trawl calling for professional police officers to join the Military Police and spent the rest of his war investigating links between US personnel and organised criminal in London.
  
  Rear area troops had more opportunities for diverting stuff. The RAMC was known as "Rob All My Comrades" because of the number of casualties who arrived in hospital minus personal valuables. Some Field Post Office units ransacked mail, although this particular crime was very harshly dealt with if detected.
  
  Ur-Ungal mentions George MacDonald-Fraser's "Quartered Safe Out Here". Apparently the Border Regime3nt (or at least that battalion) had a very bad reputation for pilfering. But a few pounds of sugar and some extra ciggies for a front-line infantry unit doesn't seem too much of a crime. Very informative book, a must for anyone interested in a soldier's life in the period.
  
  Looting was officially frowned on, but was widespread, often on the basis that if the loot was lying around in an abandoned or wrecked house, someone else would have it. MacDonald-Fraser is also on record as observing that if you haven't actually been in combat, you have no right to comment on battlefield looting (of abandoned stuff).
  
  At the risk of starting a fight, the Australians in North Africa had a dreadful reputation for stealing from other units. This seems to have started with the disappearance of 7th Armoured Division's Christmas dinners in 1940, while in transit through 6th Australian Division's area (6th Div veterans hotly deny this base allegation). The reputation even came to the attention of the enemy. German propaganda during the seige of Tobruk christened 9th Australian Divison "Ali Baba Moreshead and his 20,000 Thieves". This was prompted by interrogation reports of British POWs, noting the complaints made by POWs about their Aussie comrades.
  
  Cheers
  
  LW

  Link to this forum: WW2- again. Corruption, theft ad other deplorable behaviour.

  Report message6

• Message 7

  , in reply to message 1.

  Posted by Jak (U1158529) on Tuesday, 29th November 2011

  Deplorable behaviour? On the Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔ Front? Interesting to see reviews of a recent book about life among the wealthy in posh London hotels during "Our Darkest Hour". No worries at all about rationing for them.
  
  All in it together? What a comforting notion. Plough up the playing fields to grow necessary grain, sure. But plough up the golf courses - of course not! They were sacred.
  
  I remember my father's outrage because his boss used petrol allocated for the factory fire-engine to keep his car going during the war. While being overtly very patriotic, of course.
  
  And down in the Royal Ordnance factories - lots of cigarette-lighters being made "on the side". I used to have one, two "ship" ha'pennies blown out like domes, mounted each side of a big brass nut, very stylish.
  
  The nation all pulled together in WW2? Pull the other one.

  Link to this forum: WW2- again. Corruption, theft ad other deplorable behaviour.

  Report message7

• Message 8

  , in reply to message 6.

  Posted by wollemi (U2318584) on Tuesday, 29th November 2011

  #6
  
  LW
  
  The term I think was 'Ali Baba Morshead and his 40,000 thieves'
  It was coined by the Germans because the Australians at Tobruk were stealing from ...Germans.... via Australian night patrols into no mans land and German forward positions
  
  Don't take this as 'starting a fight'. Australian troops were as renowned as others for stealing - just that in this case 'stealing' from the enemy is hardly theft

  Link to this forum: WW2- again. Corruption, theft ad other deplorable behaviour.

  Report message8

• Message 9

  , in reply to message 8.

  Posted by LongWeekend (U3023428) on Tuesday, 29th November 2011

  wollemi
  
  That's one version - my version came from a discussion on propaganda and the uses of POW interrogation (Lord Haw-Haw got a lot of material from the same source). It still doesn't explain what happened to 7th Armd's Christmas pudding!
  
  To shift the focus slightly, organised crime in the Delta was supposedly under the control of a South African Captain who had pushed off into the back streets of Cairo. It is much more likely he was British (and probably an other rank, like Percy Topliss in the previous war) who passed himself off as a Union officer to avoid the military police. Army legend has it that he was killed in a shoot out with the CMP in 1944,
  
  Cheers
  
  LW

  Link to this forum: WW2- again. Corruption, theft ad other deplorable behaviour.

  Report message9

• Message 10

  , in reply to message 9.

  Posted by LongWeekend (U3023428) on Wednesday, 30th November 2011

  wollemi
  
  Apologies, I was posting in a hurry.
  
  I should have added that the law of unintended consequences applied, as it frequently did with propaganda, and 9th Aus. Div gleefully adopted the intended insult as their own title. I believe the story about it arising from their raiding prowess was British counter-propaganda, though. On the other hand, another aspect of German propaganda was that the garrison of Tobruk were starving because they weren't getting resupplied.
  
  The stories about the South African and the missing Christmas dinners, incidentally, come from Barrie Pitt's "Crucible of War" series, which remains the best narrative account of the Desert War, at least from the British Empire and Commonwealth side.
  
  Cheers
  
  LW

  Link to this forum: WW2- again. Corruption, theft ad other deplorable behaviour.

  Report message10

• Message 11

  , in reply to message 10.

  Posted by wollemi (U2318584) on Wednesday, 30th November 2011

  Yes, I think that's more the dynamic, LW, propaganda and counter propaganda - rather than 'theft'.
  
  German propaganda referred to the garrison besieged at Tobruk as 'rats caught in a trap'. The 'Rats' responded by organising night patrols crossing into German forward positions and 'thieving' - meant to show the impotence of the 'trap'. The night patrols were encouraged by the commanding officer, Morshead
  
  That's a different dynamic to thieving from your own people in wartime

  Link to this forum: WW2- again. Corruption, theft ad other deplorable behaviour.

  Report message11

• Message 12

  , in reply to message 11.

  Posted by LongWeekend (U3023428) on Wednesday, 30th November 2011

  wollemi
  
  See attached link, to an official Australian site:
  
  
  
  This attributes the German bestowal of the thief title to Australian behaviour in Syria and Egypt, not Tobruk.
  
  Which ties in with what I posted.
  
  LW
  
  

  Link to this forum: WW2- again. Corruption, theft ad other deplorable behaviour.

  Report message12

• Message 13

  , in reply to message 12.

  Posted by CASSEROLEON (U11049737) on Thursday, 1st December 2011

  Surely the important point is that War is when a Society or Civilization strips off for action.. and as our old History teacher told us 'vis a vis' the small naturist swimming pool in the University Parks you really do not want to see most people stripped naked.. But then some people put you in mind of gods and godesses.. and that makes all the difference.
  
  So we admire "The Few" and the outstanding.
  
  
  Cass
  
  
  

  Link to this forum: WW2- again. Corruption, theft ad other deplorable behaviour.

  Report message13

• Message 14

  , in reply to message 7.

  Posted by Raph33inUK (U14994758) on Friday, 2nd December 2011

  I remember hearing about a book published a few years ago about the "dark side" of the Blitz-Spirit in the UK, showing that the all perfect image of the British people united in honourable behaviour was, as you would assume if you're not naive, very much hagioraphic.
  I can't remember the title or the author.
  If someone can help ?
  
  thanks
  
  Raph

  Link to this forum: WW2- again. Corruption, theft ad other deplorable behaviour.

  Report message14

• Message 15

  , in reply to message 14.

  Posted by Priscilla (U14315550) on Friday, 2nd December 2011

  Sorry can't helpΓ³n this book.
  
  Jak mentions earlier that golf courses were not ploughed up. In my town the golf course was given over to a flock of sheep and very few golfers used it.
  
  One was a chap who had - some thought - a cushy factory job managing the canteen in a munitions. He had been a major in the first W. war and was young enough to be in the 2nd so many said with rancour.
  
  Many years later we learned tha he was leading a pack of 6 or so special resistance fighters. Their underground HQ was not far from the golf links - and his work home in an islotated place. It had been prepared by a Canadian group who went in covered trucks to it, never seeing light of day nor knowing where they were working to install a bunker, store room and radion station
  
  A local poacher - a man well known to me and my family - was in the group because he new the secret paths in all the wild places and it ws he who sited their second radio hideout. in a wooded place.
  
  They had supplies for two weeks as they were not expected to live longer if the invasion came.
  
  Their huge cache of weapons was lodged but fifty yards from our house. I had inadvertently seen it as a child - one of the very few to do so. I thought it nothing special. Everyone probably had a front room full of such stuff I had assumed as a wartime child. Apparently their garden shed had masses more of all kinds of volatile stuff. Later the MoD did nothing about removing it and our golfer friend had to pay fishrmen to dump it out at sea in the fifties. There is a site with all this on if anyone is interested in the several secret groups trained and ready for action if we had been invaded.
  
  The 'golfer' never spoke of any of this, it was his son who told me - and as I can vouch, their front room was indeed piled high with weapons. His dad only played golf a so as to get himself to his secret ops room later. Nothing is not always what it seems - and the poacher went on poaching with his story untold.
  
  Regards P. ... not what this post was about but I thought it relevant before we bight the Blitz spirit too harshly.
  
  

  Link to this forum: WW2- again. Corruption, theft ad other deplorable behaviour.

  Report message15

• Message 16

  , in reply to message 15.

  Posted by Priscilla (U14315550) on Friday, 2nd December 2011

  Sorry about the many errors.
  my editor says I really should have a personal editor in the home..

  Link to this forum: WW2- again. Corruption, theft ad other deplorable behaviour.

  Report message16

• Message 17

  , in reply to message 16.

  Posted by CASSEROLEON (U11049737) on Friday, 2nd December 2011

  Priscilla
  
  Your post goes along with some reflections I had been having about people tending to see what they are looking for..
  
  As this is the History MB perhaps I should point out that this applies to some historians who have decided that there is a pattern in history and go looking for evidence..
  
  And I suppose I could offer one of the themes in my "Modern Lessons from Medieval History" in which I suggest that, while one University Academic published in 1963 saw the wave of rebellions and protests across late fourteenth century Europe- across all lines of nation, religion, culture etc- as evidence that the social economic system had evolved to a crisis that was the start of the modern class war- what seems much more likely is that the Black Death, which killed one third of the population in three years, with no respect at all for any kind of "human lines", was a much more likely explanation- and that had really nothing to do with the interior working of the Medieval economic system.
  
  This is not quite the same as Mr. Brown excusing his government for having left the British economy defenseless and unequipped to handle the financial storm in 2008. Unlike the Plague that was not unprecedented.
  
  Anyway on a much more mundane level- has anyone else noticed that when you have more or less made up your mind to buy a certain model of motor car, not really ever having noticed them before, you suddenly see them all over the place?
  
  Cass

  Link to this forum: WW2- again. Corruption, theft ad other deplorable behaviour.

  Report message17

Back to top