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Pay for personnel on active service overseas during WW2?
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Message 1.聽
Posted by Priscilla (U14315550) on Tuesday, 15th November 2011
How were they paid - and how did their families receive money from them?
I realisd that I knew more about the payment of the Roman army than I did about my own father's pay. My mother must have received something - I would surely have heard if she hadn't.... loudly at that.
An info on this would be interesting, thank you.
Regards, P.Link to this forum: Pay for personnel on active service overseas during WW2?
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Message 2
Posted by CASSEROLEON (U11049737) on Tuesday, 15th November 2011
Priscilla
It is probably not much use to you.. but no-one is yet giving you any better answer..
Your post reminded me of a local heroine here, Mrs Marsh who became something of a champion of the navvies building the Crystal Palace complex here in "Norwood".. A few years later the complex became a rallying point for a engineering Army Corps that I.K. Brunel said was needed in the Crimea.. A motley crew of bands of navvies from all over the UK assembled- finally 3,000.. But as yet their position in the military was not clear. Mrs Marsh volunteered to open a Savings Account for most of the ample pay that the men were to receive and keep a record for them. She also wrote down a will for each man, and took down details of various people, immediate family etc , to whom they wished part of their pay to be paid- both immediately and in the event of their death.
I would assume that the regular army does something similar.. or the RAF that my brother served in for 12 years- one away in Bahrain (because it counted as 2 years of overseas owing to the heat and humidity )
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Message 3
Posted by islanddawn (U7379884) on Wednesday, 16th November 2011
Interesting question Priscilla, and not one that I had ever considered.
But I imagine their pay would have been deposited into some sort of bank or post office account, either so the soldier's family could draw on it for support or to await when the soldier is on leave or discharged. It is not as if soldiers need a lot of money when on active duty as the defence forces supply the majority of their needs?Link to this forum: Pay for personnel on active service overseas during WW2?
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Message 4
Posted by Caro (U1691443) on Wednesday, 16th November 2011
I have my father's war records, and at one stage they state that his pay has increased because he has done a cooking course (it said "Marched out to ME Cookery School", and a month later, "Marched in CTBA Cookery Sch". (My father spent most of his war on courses - an anti-tank course, a cooking course, and a mines course, I think. He always told us he was a cook in the war - and we always liked it when Dad said he would do the cooking that night; more likely to get steak than the usual mutton. His meals were better than my grandmother's anyway, though she wasn't by nature a housewife. Seems to be an inherited or learnt attribute.)
But that's a little odd - those two entries were towards the end of 1943 and then in September 1945 it says, "Eligibility for ED Pay of 2/6 a day as Cook. amd then a month later it says, "CTB Eligible for ED Pay of 2/6 a day as Cook."
Does that mean he was paid this AFTER the war for the time he worked as a cook DURING the war?
There's another page dated 29.11.46 that says: NZ gratuity 2L 2s 4d, and overseas gratuity 114L, 15s 0d, a total of 116L 18s 4d. Then there's another 5L 0s 8d for another NZ gratuity.
I have just assumed they were paid where they were. One of his letters says, "The money here is a little bamboozling at first. When we got payed (sic) we thought we had a fair amount, we got 100 piasters which is in N.Z. money worth 拢1." And a later one says, "I received 拢8 so it hardly pays to get it sent. You lose a fair amount."
One letter also mentions that he did well getting fifteen pounds from the area he lived in - I don't know how that worked. Did the towns put on concerts or dances and share money gathered between the soldiers who went? Did the money go to their families or over to them?
I hadn't thought of this before, and what happened to soldiers from overseas may have been different from British ones.
Cheers, Caro.Link to this forum: Pay for personnel on active service overseas during WW2?
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Message 5
Posted by CASSEROLEON (U11049737) on Wednesday, 16th November 2011
Caro
Belated Happy Birthday wishes for Eleven Eleven
Quite possibly the dates after the war highlight the fact that soldiers do not just come home as soon as the fighting is over. I know that it took well into 1919 for soldiers to be demobbed in that war after that first Eleven Eleven.. Obviously the logistics of bringing home everyone and everything that may have built up over years of war has to be handled properly. And certainly men waiting demobilisation needed to be fed, and perhaps were more interested in being fed well than during the years of combat.
But, as ID pointed out, the forces house and feed you, and most of the time plonk you down in some strategic place in the middle of nowhere, so really troops on duty do not need more than pocket money.. And money was best left where it could be safe.. that is in Savings Banks. Does/did NZ have a Post Office SB?
But what you say about courses was perhaps relevant to what can be the resultant chronic idleness and inactivity of war. In the British Indian Army- serving a country with something like 300+ languages- officers at least who learned more languages received supplementary pay, since it increased their utility value to the Army.
David Niven in his autobiography mentions the challenge of finding things for his unit to do in those years between Dunkirk and D Day when the UK was one vast training camp preparing for the eventually openning up of the Second Front.. My brother often spoke of the boredom of his job as an RAF electrician working on jet engines.. If you did your work well the planes were off in the sky and it was sitting around and playing cards until another plane needed looking at. In the months before he left he made a point of volunteering to take on every job just to get himself re-accustomed for what he thought would be the challenge of 'civvy street'.
PS. Congrats to NZ on the RWC result.. But all credit to the French.. I do not recall ever having seen an AB team with such fear in their eyes as during that last 30 minutes of desperately holding on to a one-point lead.
Meanwhile over here the French performance does not seem to have produced any second thoughts about England's disgrace at having been put out by France.
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Message 6
Posted by LongWeekend (U3023428) on Wednesday, 16th November 2011
Priscilla
Officers were paid by remittance to their bank accounts (officers were required to have a bank account). Other Ranks were paid cash at weekly pay parades. On active duty "in the field" officers were also paid in cash.
All ranks received various "married man's" allowances if eligible. They could also remit part of their pay to their families (I think a certain amount was compulsory - if you admitted to being married). I would expect that the payments to wives were made by postal order (officers' possibly to bank accounts). The thrifty might also make use of their post office savings account to squirrel away anything they thought they could spare. All were encouraged to buy war bonds, as well.
Bank accounts were not as widely held in the 1930s/1940s as they are today, and ordinary soldiers in particular would not usually have had a bank account. Of course, this was less true with the introduction of conscription where people from different classes found themselves in the ranks.
Pay was not generous, so use of a bank account was largely unnecessary. Paying in cash also removed the need for troops to get to a bank - banking hours were pretty inconvenient for anyone subject to a military schedule, even assuming they were anywhere near a bank.
I don't know a great deal about remittances home. If that is your particular interest, I will see what I can find out.
All the above, incidentally, primarily relates to the British Army, but the Dominions had a similar system, with different rates of pay, etc.
Regards
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Message 7
Posted by Caro (U1691443) on Wednesday, 16th November 2011
Thanks, Cass, for birthday wishes and rugby comments. As regards courses and boredom, I have no idea if they were connected but one of my Dad's letters says, "I have only one week here to go now thank goodness, before I will be back in my unit. I am on bulk cooking at present and then next week we will have our test. There is no news here to tell you it鈥檚 the deadliest place I鈥檝e ever been in. I have never been on leave since I came here, it鈥檚 such a hard job getting a ride so I never bothered." This was somewhere in Egypt but I don't know how these courses operated - he says he is away from his unit, though.
(Bits of my father's letter are cringe-making these days. He says, "Was on guard at Cairo today keeping an eye on the w*** while they were unloading cases of eatables off the truck." and "The It*** are handy for doing our washing, that鈥檚 about all they are good for." And it seems a bit ironic for a soldier to say he didn't like the movie he saw as it had too much shooting in it for his liking.)
And thanks to you, LW, for answering the question which the rest of seem to be ignorant of. I don't know if bank account holdings were the same for NZ or for the 1950s, but I recall that kids at school here were all expected to have an account, perhaps a Post Office account. It was to encourage savings and once a week there was some time set aside (person came to the school?) to take our money.
Cheers, Caro.Link to this forum: Pay for personnel on active service overseas during WW2?
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Message 8
Posted by Sambista (U4068266) on Wednesday, 16th November 2011
Long after the war, and RN rather than army, but may be relevant.
An amount was deducted from a serviceman's pay and remitted to his wife (or for some of the youngsters, mother). There was a fixed minimum, but you could choose to increase the amount of your "allotment" if you wished.Link to this forum: Pay for personnel on active service overseas during WW2?
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Message 9
Posted by CASSEROLEON (U11049737) on Wednesday, 16th November 2011
Caro
Well courses are often a disappointment... At one time I had students opting to take my A Level Economics course on the basis that they had enjoyed my teaching of History or RE, and discovering that it was a very different kind of subject..
As for "the unit" as they say "absence makes the heart grow fonder"..
But if the course was out in a remote "desert" of some kind then any "free time" was probably useless.
The Post Office Savings account tradition was part of my childhood too.. One of the suggested extensions of the franchise debated around Disraeli's "Great Leap in the Dark" of 1867 was giving the vote to everyone who had something like 拢10 in a savings account.. "When you aint got nothing, you've got nothing to lose."
CassLink to this forum: Pay for personnel on active service overseas during WW2?
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Message 10
Posted by LongWeekend (U3023428) on Sunday, 20th November 2011
Caro
The 2nd New Zealand Expeditionary Force included base units to support the 2nd NZ Division, the fighting element of the Force. These included specialist traini8ng schools, although NZ personnel might also train at British ones.
The main 2NZEF base was at Maadi, south of Cairo (it's a suburb of Cairo now, rather an upmarket one), Your father's course was probably held there. Cooks were recruited from within their units, although trained by the Army Service Corps. In 1943 the British and Australians created separate "Catering Corps", but with their trained cooks operating as part of the unit they were assigned to. I don't know if the New Zealanders also did this, or if cooks carried on as infantrymen, cavalry etc.
I would guess (haven't been able to confirm) CTBA means Combined Training Base Area, and the reference to it in his paybook indicates it should be paid to him if he is serving as a cook - he wouldn't get it if he was doing something else. The NZ military authorities apparently had problems with sorting out trade pay, so the appearance in 1945 might indicate one of the attempts to resolve records, or a change of nomenclature of the qualification.
The NZ Official History is on line, as I'm sure you know, and there is a volume specifically on "The Problems of 2NZEF" which is fascinating to anyone, like me, interested in logistics, organisation and command & control. It is a British national disgrace that our own OHs are not available in the same way.
As to his comments about the host nation, sadly they are not untypical. The Egyptians returned the contempt in spades, with actual hatred. This later had a direct effect on the Suez Crisis. Robert Menzies commented in his memoir of that period that the reason Australian (and, I believe New Zealand) public opinion was generally supportive of the British stance, was because so many Australians had had firsthand experience of Egyptians. Nobody's finest hour, really.
Hope the stuff about cook training helps.
Cheers
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Message 11
Posted by LongWeekend (U3023428) on Sunday, 20th November 2011
Caro
Further to my last, apparently Cook was the one type of extra duty pay the NZEF didn't have a problem with!
LWLink to this forum: Pay for personnel on active service overseas during WW2?
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Message 12
Posted by Caro (U1691443) on Sunday, 20th November 2011
Thanks for that, LW. Very interesting. I don't think Dad could have been in a catering corps, as this was the first course he attended and then he did the other two. He liked the anti-tank one . "I am having a good time on the anti Tank course, I wouldn鈥檛 mind being in the anti-tank regiment. I might try and get a course on the Bren Carriers if I am here for a while yet."
These courses were all while at Maadi in 1943. Then there is a big gap in the letters I have from January 1944 to Ocotber 1944, when they are in Italy at Cassino, I suppose. (I don't have a timeline for battles and war events in my head.) And then he remarks that he is enjoying being a batman - no route marches. He always said he was a batman in the war but I had decided this might be romanticising a bit, but apparently not. The letters I have unfortunately don't say who he was a batman for, and I don't think his war records tell me. (I find them a little hard to decipher and understand in places.)
I know the offical history is online, but I only look at that when someone points to a specific part. I should have a decent read of parts of them.
I don't recall Dad ever talking with any particular dislike after the war for Egyptians, Italians, or even Germans. He was always fairly tolerant; I just assume that casual sort of stereotyping and the seemingly racial language was what everyone did then. I do recall an argument in our household once between my father and his mother, my grandmother who looked after us, about the monastery at Cassino. My grandmother was saying what a shame it was to bomb the buildings and my father pooh-poohed that. "Just a lot of silly old buildings." [This isn't at all how he described them in his letters, when he is filled with awe at Florence, but I suppose the argument was on different lines.]
My sister and I, always on our father's side, said the same, but that's not how I feel now.
Cheers, Caro.Link to this forum: Pay for personnel on active service overseas during WW2?
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Message 13
Posted by Priscilla (U14315550) on Monday, 21st November 2011
Thank you for the info here. I think my father must have arranged payment through the bank.......... he left a huge overdraft that my mother did not know about until he had been a month in the army - and perhaps one of the reasons why I suspect he volunteered! She worked terribly hard to pay it off . (His home leave before going to Africa was somewhat tense, apparently.).
He must have had some spending money because of the interesting things he brought back - though I am still in a quandary about what to do with a huge brass Victorian thing he bought in Perth in which we kept coal that was always called the spitoon. The trinkets from North Africa and italy are also still with me.
Regards, P.Link to this forum: Pay for personnel on active service overseas during WW2?
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Message 14
Posted by CASSEROLEON (U11049737) on Monday, 21st November 2011
Priscilla
Your post made me think of a song lyric written by Ned Botwood to be sung to the French National Anthem tune and popular with British troops during the Seven Years War and the American War of Independence.
It was a call to "Death defying dogs who dare venture his neck"
And a line said "Pay your debts at the tavern by paying leg bail"
I always presume that he meant "legging it".
CassLink to this forum: Pay for personnel on active service overseas during WW2?
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Message 15
Posted by LongWeekend (U3023428) on Thursday, 24th November 2011
Caro
If your father got off route marches to carry out batman duties, he was probably batman to one of the senior officers. Unless he was talking about the period after the end of hostilities (when units when on training in order to keep them out of mischief, and in case the Yugoslavs started a fight).
If you know what unit he was in, you can probably find out the name of Commanding Officer, and if that individual left any personal papers, there might be a mention of your father, if he was his batman. Would take some digging, though.
If your father was a batman for most of his service with his unit, that may explain the paybook entries relating to his cook's ED pay. He would only get the pay while working as a cook, so perhaps he was only on cooking duties in the periods indicated in his paybook?
I am afraid I feel the bombing of the Monastery, although a tragedy, was justified. Anything that might help our troops take the position had to be tried. A lot of the criticism is 20/20 hindsight.
Regards
LW
p.s. I am afraid I feel the bombing of the Monastery, although a tragedy, was justified. Anything that might help our troops take the position had to be tried. A lot of the criticism is 20/20 hindsight. But that is a topic for another thread!Link to this forum: Pay for personnel on active service overseas during WW2?
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Message 16
Posted by Sambista (U4068266) on Thursday, 24th November 2011
I'd disagree about the bombing of the monastery - the ruins were, as they should have learned from the town, far more easily defensible than the intact building.
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Message 17
Posted by LongWeekend (U3023428) on Thursday, 24th November 2011
Priscilla
Because of the difference between civilian pay and military pay, there was legislation to prevent the repossession of goods, provided interest payments were kept up. A lot of companies tried threatening letters, though.
There is a sequence in the 1944 film "The Way Ahead" which is in effect a Public Information film on this subject. One of the platoon (inevitably the mild-mannered shop assistant) goes AWOL because his wife is frantic over such letters, and David Niven gets to explain what the real position is (the mild-mannered type gets jailed, nonetheless, and then becomes their star at basic training).
I haven't been able to find anything more on Married and Dependent allowances. rather annoyingly, I have one wartime book on the RAF which goes into minute detail about the pay for different trade groups, but then just notes that family allowances are available "on RAF Form 1306". Obviously, the author wasn't interested in families ("dreadful distraction, what, never seen the need myself").
Cheers
LWLink to this forum: Pay for personnel on active service overseas during WW2?
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Message 18
Posted by Priscilla (U14315550) on Friday, 25th November 2011
Thanks for trying, LW. I refer ba.ck to my first post on this. We seem to have much more detail about Roman troop payment than for our own people. Not that I am surprised. It must take many pen pushers in supply and pay corps to keep a man at the front - and facing the front.
As for the monastery, as I recall from snatches of man talk who survived it, preserving the monastery was not to the fore in few minds at the time. Oh hindsight is a fine thing in the comfort of peace and safety.
Avoiding colateral damage during warfare is called peace, I'd have thought., sadly, sadly it happens. My father used to laugh about always taking cover in the mountains of Italy if there was an airstrike by the Americans; cavalier collateral damage was just as dangerous.
And let it be known that if I am in the Louvre with my grandchildren and fire breaks out, I will NOT be saving the Mona Lisa. And they will be too busy saving their little electronic games - not granma, I suspect.
Regards, P.Link to this forum: Pay for personnel on active service overseas during WW2?
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Message 19
Posted by LongWeekend (U3023428) on Friday, 25th November 2011
Priscilla
During the hours of daylight, I am a bureaucrat, so knowing there is an official form but that I can't access it is very annoying! It is a great disgrace that successive Governments have failed to put online the same amounts of official records as our Commonwealth colleagues.
However, I have found RAF allowance figures for 1940. RAF pay tended to be slightly higher, but I would think married allowances were approximately the same across the Services. The Married Allowance was 17s to 23s 6d per week, depending on husband's rank (I know there were complaints about this allowance being rank-based) and I believe the dependent child allowance was 7s a week per child under 14.
As to Cassino, a sad irony was that General Alexander, who took the final decision, was the most artistic of British senior officers and an accomplished painter. He always accepted personal responsibility for the order and said this about it in his memoirs:
"Was the destruction of the monastery a military necessity? Was it morally wrong to destroy it?
The answer to the first question is 'yes'. It was necessary more for the effect it would have on the morale of the attackers than for purely material reasons.
The answer to the second question is this: when soldiers are fighting for a just cause and are prepared to suffer death and mutilation in the process, bricks and mortar, no matter how venerable, cannot be allowed to weigh against human lives. Every good commander must consider the morale and feelings of his fighting men; and, what is equally important, the fighting men must know that their whole existence is in the hands of a man in whom they have complete confidence. Thus, the commanding general must make it absolutely clear to his troops that they go into action under the most favourable conditions he has the power to order."
Alexander had spent the previous war almost entirely on regimental service at the Front and knew about morale at the sharp end. It is interesting that, from talking to 8th Army veterans, I know Alexander did have the confidence of his men, even during this period.
There is an curious postscript to the bombing of the Monastery. One of the US aircrew involved, Walter M. Miller, became a writer after the war. He had been affected by the sight of the monastery being bombed, and also worried about atomic warfare. In 1955 he wrote the first of three stories which eventually became "A Canticle For Lebowitz", which remains a science fiction post-apocalypse classic. It is also based on remarkable research into the Catholic Church of the Dark Ages.
Cheers
LWLink to this forum: Pay for personnel on active service overseas during WW2?
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Message 20
Posted by rhmnney (U14528380) on Saturday, 26th November 2011
Priscilla,
In the British Army when a man (I do not know the situation for women), entered the forces if married his wife received a pay allowance, also each child. If he wished, he could also allot some of his pay. Some single men made an allowance to mothers, or one of the family, but purely voluntary out of their pay, if the man died the allowance ceased, many mistakenly believed it would continue, but it was not so.
During wartime, soldiers did not receive extra pay for Specialist skills as they would in peacetime. (unsure if those acquiring such in prewar continued during war). For the peacetime Infantry, Mortars, Signals, Demolition, Snipers, Intelligence etc. and such kind of skills extra pay was awarded also high rifle scores.
British soldiers fighting never received extra pay for fighting as far as I know, Europe was not considered overseas but those who spent time in india on demob we were granted one day's pay for each month overseas.
Regarding the Monastery, it had been destroyed twice before the Allied bombing, after bombing, made it an ideal defensive position for the Germans to defend. Before the bombing the Germans had plenty of natural surroundings to survey from and had no need for the Monastery, and claimed they never used itLink to this forum: Pay for personnel on active service overseas during WW2?
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Message 21
Posted by LongWeekend (U3023428) on Monday, 28th November 2011
Priscilla, Ur-Lugal
I was browsing in a second-hand bookshop near my office today, and came across a a 1951 publication "The Regular Army". The pamphlet seems to have been originally issued soon after the war. What it says about allowances ties in with Ur-Lugal's earlier post.
Marriage Allowance was paid at a flat rate to Privates and JNCOs up to Corporal. After that it increased according to rank. Widowers also received the Allowance, except that if they only had one child, living away from them, they received half the rate for the Allowance. Married men had to pay a qualifying allotment from their own pay in order get the Allowance, and this allotment also increased according to rank above Corporal. This is apparently the same as the war years.
Two things differed from the war years. The introduction of the Family Allowances Act meant that allowances for children of personnel in UK were paid by the civil authorities (Child allowance, Child benefit now). If the soldier was accompanied by his family overseas, then the Army paid an equivalent allowance.
The other difference was that Allowances were taxed, which they hadn't been during the war.
Inevitably, all the detail about actual rates is contained, so the pamphlet tells me, in a separate pamphlet called "Pay". They are doing this deliberately to thwart me!
Cheers
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Message 22
Posted by Caro (U1691443) on Tuesday, 29th November 2011
If your father got off route marches to carry out batman duties, he was probably batman to one of the senior officers.
If you know what unit he was in, you can probably find out the name of Commanding Officer, and if that individual left any personal papers, there might be a mention of your father, if he was his batman. Would take some digging, though.聽
Hi LW,
Sorry it has taken me so long to thank you for this. I have been a bit busy recently. Today I got onto it and it has taken me the best part of two hours to decide on my father鈥檚 unit 鈥 and then I don鈥檛 know if that is quite it. The top of his history sheet says: Unit: 5/LAFV and crossed out OMR (the latter is Otago Mounted Rifles and I have found the former means Light Armoured Fighting Vehicles. Then there is a line about casualties which is dated 31.7.44 and says (perhaps: handwriting not totally clear) unit classifies B/C Simple Injuries 31.7.44 Discharged hosp. 20.8.44.
When my father was injured he got a letter someone whose signature I can鈥檛 read with Major. Comd., 23 New Zealand BN after it. Someone once told me who this was likely to be but I have forgotten and though I looked though the New Zealand official war records this afternoon for that time and battalion I can鈥檛 find a likely candidate. It looks like Edith Chast but that is not likely. It begins: Dear Dykes, which reads very oddly to my feminine modern eyes which don鈥檛 like just surnames. It starts: You have been wounded in action in the Bn. I would like to express my regret as well as my sincere hope that your wounds will not prove serious. You will appreciate that it would be rather too much for me to write a personal note to each of you much as you deserve it, but I thought you would like to hear how the recent actions in which you played such a part were finished.鈥 He goes on about the actions near San Casciano for a full page and a half. One sentence bothers me rather. It says 鈥淎ccording to the Horries there were three tigers on our left flank but the 10 B/Tk (might not be B) guns under command were a great comfort.鈥 Hories was a derogatory term for Maori (transliteration for George) 鈥 though I see under urban dictionary it is perhaps more a term for white trash.
Dad arrived home on 23rd January 1946 and then 鈥減ay ceases鈥 29.3.46. But he applied for a war gratuity 鈥 no amount mentioned 鈥 in February 1946. I don鈥檛 know what happened about that 鈥 he said he was receiving no disability pensions at that time.
The history sheet also mentions a document in 1948 鈥 I can鈥檛 read the first word. Perhaps it is Rest of dcharge Issued No 75795 and then in 1954 ticks beside 1939 鈥 45 Star, Italy Star, War Medal 1939 鈥 45 and NZ War Service Medal. (I have these or some of them somewhere.)
None of that at this stage helps me with a commanding officer or his personal papers.
Thanks,
Caro.Link to this forum: Pay for personnel on active service overseas during WW2?
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Message 23
Posted by CASSEROLEON (U11049737) on Tuesday, 29th November 2011
Caro
Perhaps "Horries" was used here just as "indigenous population"- and "derogatory not necessarily in a racist way, which people tend to assume everywhere, - but as an observation reflecting the shock and impact of the last 20 years plus on the Italian people.. Having finally finished my bedtime complete Katherine Mansfield I am currently reading "Roman Tales" by Alberto Moravia (1954) which connects with some of the fiction that I have read from France in the decade after 1945.
As for the B/tk guns- the context might suggest A/tk .. in other words the locals had warned them that German tanks were still nearby and they felt that their 10 Anti-tank guns gave them protection.
Just a couple of suggestions.
CassLink to this forum: Pay for personnel on active service overseas during WW2?
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Message 24
Posted by LongWeekend (U3023428) on Tuesday, 29th November 2011
caro
That is all fascinating stuff. I wish I had the same records for our family.
I am in a bit of a rush today, so will come back tomorrow with a fuller reply, apologies
However, could your "Edith Chast" be E. A. McPhail? Lt Col Thomas was the 23rd Bn's CO from May of 1944, and was commanding the day your father was wounded, but McPhail took temporary command from 4th August. If it is him, as he signed the letter "Major" I imagine the letter is dated somewhere between 4th and 7th August - he should have been an temporary Lieutenant Colonel after that.
I think McPhail must have been the battalion second-in-command, as he had been the acting CO earlier in the year, as well.
"B/C Simple" means Battle Casualty - simple wounds (i.e those not needing surgery or special treatment).
regardss
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Message 25
Posted by Caro (U1691443) on Wednesday, 30th November 2011
That is all fascinating stuff. I wish I had the same records for our family.聽
That's good. I looked at it after I had put it here and thought it would be very boring for everyone to read - and not even on Priscilla's topic. The letter probably was in amongst my father's own letters from the war which I have, with my grandmother's letter from Scotland during WWI to her future husband in NZ. My favourite possessions.
But the war records I got from the Defence archives people - all for free. As it seemed obvious to me that it was gathered by some rather elderly person ferreting away I sent a box of chocolates, but someone the other day told me they would be retired servicemen who would be paid for this work. But now these records are held at Archives NZ and I think you can only get one set a year free, or you have to be next of kin or something. I got my great-uncle's as well. Should have got my grandfather's too. He was gassed in WWI.
Cheers, Caro.Link to this forum: Pay for personnel on active service overseas during WW2?
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Message 26
Posted by Caro (U1691443) on Wednesday, 30th November 2011
I meant to say also that the letter from the Major was dated 23rd August, so actually a couple of days after Dad was released from hospital.
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Message 27
Posted by LongWeekend (U3023428) on Wednesday, 30th November 2011
Caro
So much for Regulations - you were supposed get the temporary rank for the post you were holding after 3 days! Perhaps the system hadn't got round to doing the paperwork. Stiil, McPhail was the CO on 23 August, so it seems likely the letter is from him.
I only recently got round to doing detailed research on our family history (my brother was doing it before) and unfortunately no-one previously had an interest, so a lot of family stuff from the war years has been mislaid. We know what most of them did (they were a lucky bunch - only one serious casualty, and a V2 came down 300 yards from my mother's school but no-one in the school was hurt) but have very few letters or photos.
I believe the various NZ mounted regiments became Light Armoured Fighting Vehicle Regiments (in the absence of tanks), which explains the 5 LAFV designation. Presumably your father then volunteered for the NZEF. The 23rd Battalion was the Canterbury-Otago battalion, so maybe he volunteered for them specifically.
It is very interesting that the CO wrote an account of the operations in the advance on Florence. How does it compare to the Official History version?
Hories may be derogatory, but I suspect the CO was using the term unthinkingly rather than as a deliberate insult. 28th (Maori) Bn - who were in 23rd's left at the time - had a fine fighting reputation both on the British side and with the enemy. They also had a long-running feud with the Foreign Legionnaires in the Free French forces, the cause of which I have never discovered.
I agree with Cass that B/Tk is A/Tk.
The 1948 entry is probably Certificate of Discharge. This would have a comment on his conduct while in the service and could be used as a reference when applying for jobs. In the British service, servicemen remained on the Reserve after finishing active service, which may explain the two year delay, if New Zealand had the same system. A gratuity was paid to all who served, whether wounded or otherwise.
I believe there is (or was) a 23rd Bn Association, who might be able to help.
Cheers
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Message 28
Posted by LongWeekend (U3023428) on Thursday, 1st December 2011
Priscilla
Not made too much progress, but basic pay for a private was 2/- a day. (A pre-war Regular Army private, once trained, got 3/-,so it appears National Servicemen started on less). there were increments as well as increases for rank.
I haven't identified the basic allotment that married men were required to make, but I think it highly unlikely to have been more than 6d a day, if that.
Obviously, Army pay was much less than many men had been receiving in their civilian employment, which caused difficulties.
Regards
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Message 29
Posted by Caro (U1691443) on Sunday, 4th December 2011
Hi LW,
I don鈥檛 read the official war history normally and am not good at what happens during battles and skirmishes. I read the passage relating to Dad鈥檚 letter and it was considerably longer at 10 pages, and more formal in it language, but I thought at first reading it was quite similar though the letter was a bit more upbeat. Then I read the last passage which talked about problems at Sant鈥 Andrea with cowardly soldiers which I hadn鈥檛 noticed on my first casual reading. It said, 鈥淢any unit and regimental histories tend to give the impression that the unit concerned contained only brave and skilful soldiers, invariably well behaved. In fact, all units have both good and bad soldiers in their ranks, and all soldiers are subject to human weaknesses, even if a few do rise to superhuman heights. The 23rd was still 鈥榯he good faithful unit鈥33 it had always been, but the incident at Sant' Andrea had served as a reminder that the battalion, like most other units, had its sprinkling of faint hearts who cared little for their own and nothing for the unit's reputation. Actually, most of the men concerned made good in subsequent campaigns and redeemed their honour. The trouble, it is agreed by those who looked into the subject most closely at the time, centred round the section leader, who used his powers of leadership in the wrong way. The many changes in command at all levels since the 23rd entered Cassino, the impossibility of absorbing large numbers of reinforcements during a campaign and of inspiring them with a strong feeling for the unit, the weakening of moral fibre in those who succumbed to the temptations which were so common in Italy鈥攖hese were some of the factors which prevented the 23rd from maintaining at its peak the team spirit which had been such a marked feature of its life.鈥
Going back I saw the following from the leader on the day, 鈥淚 duly went up to the two fwd pls and saw the comds Ernie Taylor and Karsten who informed me that some of the men were refusing to go up again. Dawn came and neither I nor Taylor could budge some of the chaps. One complete section with its sec leader refused to move, together with one or two others. They were undoubtedly damn tired and the Coy had had a pretty rough spin. Sandy arrived about that time with three Shermans in his hand and sniffing action, and prepared to help with the men.鈥 Sandy Thomas is later referred to as 鈥榓 bit impetuous鈥.
My letter barely touches on this 鈥 just says, 鈥溾滱鈥 Coy immediately patrolled forward and contacted out friends of the 8th Para Regt at S Andrea. They proved their old reputation at the first encounter by forcing our platoon to withdraw until first light the next morning when 鈥淎鈥 Coy took a deep breath and with their half squadron of tanks forged ahead to efficiently prove to the 8th Paps that the Kiwis still had their measure. They sat in S Andrea for the remainder of the day feeling rather uncomfortable with Jerry so close but once again pushed him back until they were relieved by 鈥淐鈥 Coy.鈥
A little more to come since this was a bit long, but will have to wait till tomorrow now.Link to this forum: Pay for personnel on active service overseas during WW2?
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Message 30
Posted by CASSEROLEON (U11049737) on Sunday, 4th December 2011
Caro
Your comment " the weakening of moral fibre in those who succumbed to the temptations which were so common in Italy"-- put me in mind of what I have written recently about a presumed connection between (a)the impact of "the Old World" on the "good old country boys" from the USA who got swept into the First World War. "How you gonna keep em down on the farm after they've see Paree?"
and (b) the fact that by early 1919 the Prohibition Amendment had passed into Law criminalising sex, gambling and alcohol- three great "drivers" of "Sin City" life..
France and Italy had both had quite a lot of experience over the centuries of making the best of foriegn armies and foreign travellers/tourists coming through even the most remote rural districts.
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Message 31
Posted by LongWeekend (U3023428) on Sunday, 4th December 2011
Caro
One of the things that makes the New Zealand Official Histories so valuable is the honesty shown by the authors in their account. To be fair to the 23rd Battalion, the problem recounted involved a handful of men. There were British and American battalion commanders at the same time who undoubtedly wished that their own similar problems had involved limited numbers.
Max Hastings and Carlo d'Este both record the travails of a particular British battalion in Normandy which had much greater problems. This one gets singled out because its CO left a record; it was by no means unique. The 5st Highland Division, which had had a very good reputation in North Africa and Italy had major difficulties in Normandy, recognised by higher authority (and, in illustration of one of the OH writer's points, the Division's supporters continue to dispute this).
The analysis by the OH of why the 23rd Bn (and others in the same position) suffered such problems toward the end of the Anzio/Cassino campaign is an extremely good summary of the challenges faced by an infantry battalion in sustained operations.
The fact that the battalion prevailed against an extremely determined and skillful enemy (8th Para Regt was one of the best units on the German side) is the real measure of its worth. The Germans rated the New Zealand Division the best Allied division in Italy (and, before that, in North Africa).
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Message 32
Posted by Caro (U1691443) on Sunday, 4th December 2011
Hi LW and Cass,
I don't know what company or platoon or whatever the word is that my father was in - maybe he was refusing to fight! Very sensible if so. My father was not keen on the war and advised his younger brother to appeal if he was called up. I have said before that a while ago I read With the Jocks by Peter White and the one thing that really stuck with me from that book was a number of young soldiers who disappeared when a skirmish was about to take place, to return and be taken back with some exasperated tolerance by White. They were just frightened boys really, possibly with post traumatic stress or something.
The official war history of the 23rd Battalion is written by Angus Ross, who was one of my history lecturers (or maybe by then professor) at university in the late 1960s. On a University of Otago site (where his family is putting in a trust for PHD History students鈥 travel), it says, 鈥淎ngus Ross, OBE, MC and Bar, ED Aristion Andrias, MA(NZ), PhD(Cantab), was first permanently employed at Otago in 1937 and was Professor of History from 1965 to 1977. As part of his own postgraduate research, Professor Ross completed fieldwork around the South Island on bicycle and foot, including travelling unaccompanied across rough terrain from Westland to Central Otago prior to the construction of the Haast Road.鈥
The name on the letter might be Alan McPhail, just possibly, though when I show others and suggest that they pooh-pooh that and say there is no way that could be the signature. There seems a clear E to start with, then perhaps a capital A and then a bit of a squiggle which just possibly could be a small 'm', but it is attached to the first letters, not the second lot which appears to start with a large C though you might be able to interpret it as a P. The rest of the letters could be anything, but looked most like 'aste'. Why, oh why, didn't he put his name in print as well?
Cass, my father didn't talk about sex in his letters, but he (a teetotaller all his life) was most upset about the drinking at times. He thought it lucky he was around to take drunken mates home and was pleased Christmas was over. "Well once again Xmas has passed off and believe me I鈥檓 not sorry, what with such a lot of them drunk. It really shocked me the way some of them carry on. Some of them never sobered up for two or three days. We had a great Xmas dinner, the cooks must have put a lot of effort into it, and I can assure you we did appreciate it." The next paragraph described the food in detail.
There is no mention of such a thing in his letters but he used to say he had a girlfriend called Yolande in Italy. I treated that latterly as another piece of romance, but since the batman has turned out to be right maybe this is too. At any rate when I started high school and the French teacher asked us to choose a French name for her to call us, I chose Yolande. So for an hour a day for the next four years I was "Yolande". In Year 13 she conceded to calling us our proper names and I became Caroleen. Our French teacher was not French and I am sure she could have pronounced Carolyn the same as everyone else, but she didn't.
Sometimes I think I should be using a new thread for all this, but hopefully Priscilla will forgive me for hijacking her thread.
Cheers, Caro.Link to this forum: Pay for personnel on active service overseas during WW2?
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Message 33
Posted by LongWeekend (U3023428) on Sunday, 4th December 2011
Caro
Just quickly on the identity of your letter writer.
McPhail was E.A.McPhail, which would tie in with what you can decipher. He chose to be known as Alan, his second name. As he was also Commanding Officer (CO) of 23rd Bn at the date of the letter, I rather think it must be him. I agree it is a pity he didn't print his name at the same time!
By August 1944, he already had a Military Cross and Bar, and won the DSO while commanding the battalion at this time (I haven't seen the citation). When awarded to a CO, a DSO often denotes recognition of the achievement of the whole unit under his leadership, rather than a purely personal award.
Regards
LW
p.s. I am still looking for more information on pay and allowances regarding Priscilla's OP,promise.Link to this forum: Pay for personnel on active service overseas during WW2?
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Message 34
Posted by Caro (U1691443) on Sunday, 4th December 2011
I meant to say to Cass, too, that perhaps he was right about the 'Horries' referring to the indigenous people. I hadn't thought that would be so, since the writer is in command of NZers (and therefore a NZer himself?) and would know it as the word for Maoris. However the official war record did say that the three tiger tanks were mentioned by prisoners. "Prisoners had reported three Tiger tanks on the left flank and the defence was organised accordingly. These tanks probably accounted for the fact that the Maoris were delayed and Il Pino was not taken page 377 until after midday."
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Message 35
Posted by CASSEROLEON (U11049737) on Monday, 5th December 2011
Hi Caro
Perhaps? I think that, though racism is and has been real enough, we just make the struggle even more difficult when we just use it as a blanket explanation.. I still remember in my early days of teaching some pupils responding to any attempt to point out errors in their work, or ways in which it could be improved, with "You're only saying that because I am black".
By the way mention of Maoris bringsme to to the female version of the Hakka. The very limited highlights of the England women's first of two victories over the Black Ferns there were a few seconds of what appeared to be some very "comely" hip-wiggleing and swaying. Was this standard? I wondered whether the mellow glow of winning the male RWC had a hang-over effect on the women's team.
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Message 36
Posted by LongWeekend (U3023428) on Monday, 5th December 2011
Caro, Cass
The "H-word" question is a small element of Caro's account. I think it unlikely, for a number of reasons, that the writer used the term "Hories" to mean Italians in this context.
The Tigers in question were on the left flank of 5 Brigade's advance, which is where the 28th Bn was positioned. It would have been their job to inform neighbouring units. So, "According to the H..." would fit with that, sadly.
The original information of their presence apparently came from prisoners, who were Germans, not Italians (Italy having surrendered and joined the Forces Of Light the previous year). It doesn't seem likely even the most unthinking of NZ officers would christen the Germans with that epithet.
Equally, there were other rude expressions to use about Italian civilians, some of which were probably in circulation in New Zealand before the war (they were in Britain and Australia) and which had been used by troops in Egypt to describe the Italian community there (reckoned to be dishonest and pro-Axis).
So, I am afraid on a balance of probabilities, it probably was a casual reference to the Maoris.
The other possibility given the illegibility of this chap's handwriting, is that he was referring to the prisoners, who were German, as "Heinies". This was American slang for the Germans, rather than British Commonwealth slang, but it did turn up. But this seems a bit of a stretch - wouldn't he have been likely to specify "Heinie prisoners" ?
The 28th Battalion's history's version of the battle is interesting. As with many of such accounts, trying to reconcile the two accounts isn't easy.
Looking at the 23rd's account, it would seem likely your father was wounded by mortar or shell fire on the night of 30/31 July. The incident of troops refusing to go forward had happened the previous day. After finally taking the objective, 23rd Bn seems to have been rested briefly, presumably to sort themselves out a bit. They don't seem to have been held up for long.
I find the opportunity to look at a battle in this detail very interesting - it's not my usual area of study.
Regards
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Message 37
Posted by Sambista (U4068266) on Monday, 5th December 2011
I think the normal word used to refer to the Germans in Italy was "Teds" - from the Italian "Tedeschi", so the Maori explanation strikes me as the more likely.
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Message 38
Posted by LongWeekend (U3023428) on Monday, 5th December 2011
Priscilla
Just to prove the original purpose of this thread hasn't been forgotten.
I have done a bit more digging, but still cannot find the definitive official figures.
However, from various accounts, initial basic pay for a private was 2/- a day, which went up to 3/- (which was the peacetime Regular "trained soldier" rate) after a period. I am not sure whether this was at the end of basic training, or after six months (approximately the same period in either case, anyway). Some specialist arms got a higher rate (the Sappers' basic trained pay was 3/3d per day) and there was extra pay for trades - like Caro's father's Cook qualification - although peacetime "Skills" increments were not paid.
The basic required family allotment was 7s a week - half a recruit's pay. A married man was not required to increase this until he was promoted above Corporal and many didn't.
As recorded before, the Marriage Allowance was 17s per week, with extra allowances for children - 7s for the first and 6s for each succeeding one (it might have been 7s for the first two). This was paid through the Post Office or into a bank account.
This could be a massive drop for many families - a civilian mechanic could expect around 拢4 a week in peacetime, for instance. As the war progressed, this perversely helped the Ministry of Labour as married women were encouraged/forced into war work that they were not otherwise required to do (married women with children under 14 were not subject to being "directed" into work). It also helped with billeting and evacuees, as people took lodgers for the extra cash it brought.
The impact was also not the same for everyone. The Civil Service and other public bodies made up the difference in pay for their staff, and other large employees, such as the railway companies and the big trading companies, did the same thing. This preservation of pay was not compulsory and obviously many employers did not, indeed could not, do this.
The 麻豆约拍 People's War site has various accounts that touch on the difficulties of families whose breadwinner was called up.
Cheers
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