Wars and ConflictsΒ permalink
Giving battles their names?
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Message 1.Β
Posted by Herewordless (U14549396) on Monday, 24th October 2011
Traditionally, battles were given their name due to being physically closest to a town or other geographical feature, such as a river, marsh, hillside or wood, etc?
Of course, land, woods, coastlines and populated centres change over the centuries, leaving one or two seemingly odd descriptions today from where the title was once more obviously chosen?
But what about when a battle occurred equidistant to TWO or more such features, especially a town? Which are chosen and why?
One such example is Azincourt/Tramecourt, the site of Good King Hal V's bloodbath in 1415, Agincourt was fought between the two towns, and the English position even began nearer to Maisoncelles?
And in 1066, was the little settlement (if there was one) c7 miles from Hastings by the sea really called 'Battle'?
Was it the job of the victor's heralds to count the bodies and choose which battle-name to use, or was the option more practical? Was it down to which town had supplied/sheltered the winning army? -
Message 2
Posted by raundsgirl (U2992430) on Monday, 24th October 2011
It was Wellington's practice to head his post-battle dispatch with the name of the place where he had spent the previous night. Hence 'Waterloo', although it wasn't fought there.
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Message 3
Posted by Jak (U1158529) on Monday, 24th October 2011
Don't the Germans call the site of Blucher's (Waterloo) victory "La Belle Alliance"?
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Message 4
Posted by Triceratops (U3420301) on Tuesday, 25th October 2011
During the American Civil War, North and South had different names for the same battle. For example, the Battle of Antietam in the North was called the Battle of Sharpsburg in the South. First and Second Bull Run [ North ] / First and Second Manassas [ South ] ; Shiloh [ North ] / Pittsburg Landing [ South ].
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Message 5
Posted by Sambista (U4068266) on Tuesday, 25th October 2011
Not all battles are named for a place - particularly sea battles. For example "Moonlight", "Glorious First of June", "Four Days" inter alia.
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Message 6
Posted by raundsgirl (U2992430) on Wednesday, 26th October 2011
'La Belle Alliance' was an inn near where part of the battle took place. Another site fought over was the chateau of Hougoumont, and some of the fiercest fighting was in and around the farm L'Haye Sainte.
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Message 7
Posted by Triceratops (U3420301) on Wednesday, 26th October 2011
Had a quick look at Morison's USN Operations for Guadalcanal, the Battle of Tassafaronga [30/11/42] has at various times been known as the 4th,5th or 6th Battle of Savo Island. [ As well as the Battle of Lunga Point ]
As far as I can figure, the Savo Island battles at different times were numbered as follows:
Savo 1 Savo Island
Savo 2 Cape Esperance
Savo 3 Sant Cruz Islands* or Guadalcanal* or 1st Guadalcanal
Savo 4 Guadalcanal* or 1st Guadalcanal or 2nd Guadalcanal or Tassafaronga
Savo 5 2nd Guadalcanal or Tassafaronga
Savo 6 Tassafaronga
* Despite being nowhere near Savo Island
* 1st and 2nd Guadalcanal are sometimes grouped together as one battle of Guadalcanal [ and originally called the Battle of the Solomons] -
Message 8
Posted by PaulRyckier (U1753522) on Wednesday, 26th October 2011
Jak, old fellow,
you are right:
Cheers, Paul. -
Message 9
Posted by PaulRyckier (U1753522) on Wednesday, 26th October 2011
raundsgirl,
...and near the place Plancenoit. Each year there is an international reenactment overthere:
PS; We had here on the boards during some years a man with the nom de plume "plancenoit" living in Brussels for some Euro connected job. hmm, better let the subject Euro out of the discussion these days...
A very polite type with whom we all had interesting discussions. I think Ur-lugal (Gil) will remember him...
Cheers, Paul. -
Message 10
Posted by Herewordless (U14549396) on Wednesday, 26th October 2011
I should have said LAND battles? Many were named on a whim, surely?
But as Ur-Legal stated, sea battles such as the Anglo-Dutch;-
Southwold (1672)
Schoonevelde (1673) -
Message 11
Posted by suvorovetz (U12273591) on Wednesday, 26th October 2011
How many people heard that the biggest tank battle in history occurred at Kursk in July 1943? To be a bit more precise, the highest concentration of tanks in face to face combat took place at Prokhorovka, as part of the Battle of Kursk. But the biggest ever number of tanks had been engaged in sustained combat operation at Dubno (aka the battle of Brody) - two full years prior to Kursk. I tend to believe that this misnomer is not accidental and for years meant to obscure the real numbers of RKKA tanks deployed in Ukraine and/or East Poland in the summer of 1941.
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Message 12
Posted by Jak (U1158529) on Friday, 28th October 2011
Thanks, Paul.
I've just found my old book: "We of the Infantry - the Story of the Prussian Infantrymen" published in Berlin in 1913. This is where (long ago) I saw a picture of Wellington and Blucher greeting each other - hats off, arms spread wide - and was surprised by the caption: "Blucher and Wellington meeting at the battle of La Belle Alliance". Another old engraving gives the date of this battle as 18th June 1815, so I guessed it must be the German name for Waterloo.
Until I looked up your link, then dug out the lost book, I was beginning to think I'd imagined it. -
Message 13
Posted by Hugh Mosby-Joaquin (U14258131) on Wednesday, 2nd November 2011
I would guess 'The war of Jenkins ear' was not so-called by the Spaniards who Britain was fighting. In any event , it was not called that until many years later. Although it was part of The War of the Spanish Succession, I don't suppose that was a contempory term, either.
So who called it what, and when? -
Message 14
Posted by Tim of Acleah (U1736633) on Sunday, 13th November 2011
A good example of a battle with more than one name for it is Brunanburh 937 (Bromborough). Ignoring minor spelling variations, the battle is also referred to, amongst others, as Bruneford, Brunefeld, Wendune and Vinheath.
Tim -
Message 15
Posted by Allan D (U1791739) on Sunday, 13th November 2011
A similar story surrounds the use of "The Great War", initially used to describe the two-decade conflict between France and Britain from 1793-1815, now known as the Revolutionary and Napoleonic Wars (ignoring the temporary truce occasioned by the Treaty of Amiens in 1803). It was then purloined to describe the 1914-18 conflict, before falling out of use altogether after that became known as the First World War, presumably when the soubriquet of the Second World War entered general usage, probably after US intervention.
In his preface to his war memoirs Churchill recalls a meeting with Roosevelt when he was asked what the conflict, then underway, should be called. His suggestion was "The Unnecessary War". -
Message 16
Posted by Vizzer aka U_numbers (U2011621) on Wednesday, 21st December 2011
The Battle of the Standard 1138 was fought on Cowton Moor near Northallerton in Yorkshire.
As a name of a battle, however, it could conceivably be a standard name (excuse the pun) applicable to almost any battle fought anywhere at anytime. -
Message 17
Posted by CASSEROLEON (U11049737) on Wednesday, 21st December 2011
Re The Second World War:
Was it Niall Ferguson in his stint of teaching at Harvard who had a student ask whether as people talk about the Second World War there was actually a First?
(Perhaps it was Harvard Business School and not the Ivy League institution )
Cass
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