Wars and ConflictsΒ permalink
How did they get home?
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Message 1.Β
Posted by heterodox (U14291406) on Friday, 16th September 2011
I've been reading lately about the French contribution to victory in WWII and I was particularly struck by the very brave defensive action by French forces which enabled so many Allied troops to be evacuated from Dunkirk.
About 140,000 of the soldiers rescued were French (the large number surprised me) but what surprised me even more was the fact that, after the French capitulation, a very large number, over 100,000, opted to return to France.
The information the book I was reading did not give me was by what means they returned and the route that they took. I can't see that the British would be prepared to risk ships to return men of military age to a country now controlled by an enemy and I can't see them allowing a collection from a British port either.
So, if the author has his facts right, how did they get home? -
Message 2
Posted by PaulRyckier (U1753522) on Friday, 16th September 2011
heterodox,
I did in depth research for Stalti (who is still on these boards) some years ago. There seems to have been only 100,000 French evacuated to Britain. They resided only some days some even some hours in England, before they were send back to fight further in France. And after Mers el Kebir de Gaulle could kept only some 4,000 to fight with him further. You have to think that the official armistice France of PΓ©tain had de Gaulle condamned to the dead penalty. And after the armistice those soldiers remaining in England, were "traitors" for the official France. From the 4,000 de Gaulle could keep in England most were even French soldiers retreated from Narvik.
It will take me perhaps one hour to seek that thread back, as the "Search this Board" on the left has no use as it goes back only some two or three months and as such is useless as search robot. The way I have to do it is by clicking on my name and return all my threads till I arrive at the particular thread. If you are interested you can do it by yourself by clicking on my name.
I intervened on a French messageboard for the same question and there I can find it immediately back. If you understand French I can lead you overthere as we aren't allowed to give French (or any foreign language) texts or URLs on these Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔ messageboards.
Kind regards,
Paul. -
Message 3
Posted by Vizzer aka U_numbers (U2011621) on Saturday, 17th September 2011
I can't see that the British would be prepared to risk ships to return men of military age to a country now controlled by an enemy and I can't see them allowing a collection from a British port either.Β
It must be appreciated that Dunkirk was not the final act of the British army in France in 1940.
The popular belief seems to be that after Dunkirk - (with the exception of the St Nazaire Raid and the Dieppe Raid) - was the last action of the British army in France until D-Day in 1944. This is not the case.
The evacuation from Dunkirk was officially called 'Operation Dynamo' and ended on June 4. France, however, did not capitulate until 25 June - that's 3 weeks later.
During those 3 weeks the British army was still operational in north-western France. Churchill even visited the French government in France on 11 June - i.e. the British Prime Minister felt that is was safe enough for him to be in France a week after Dunkirk.
The French government had, however, left Paris the previous day and the city was taken by the Germans on the 14th. There were still tens of thousands of British troops in France even then. It was only on that day that the Royal Navy began evacuating them via Cherbourg in 'Operation Ariel'. This major evacuation lasted for 11 days until 25 June when the last troops were taken off.
Operation Ariel is a largely unknown event in the Second World War. This is strange because it involved over 200,000 troops - which compares with Dunkirk's 300,000. A main reason why Ariel is unknown is that it was deliberately played down by the British media at the time. The reason for this was the case of HMT Lancastria.
The Lancastria was a large transatlantic liner which had been requistioned as a troopship. On June 17th she had about 7,000 people on board when she was sunk by a Luftwaffe bomber. An estimated 4,000 perished.
On top of the news of the fall of Paris - the huge loss of life on the Lancastria was too much for Churchill government to take and the news was supressed. The 4,000 lives lost on the Lancastria can be compared, for example, with the 1,500 who went down with the Titanic. In short the sinking of the Lancastria is thought to have been 1 of the worst (if not the worst) shipping disaster of all time - in war or peace.
The supression of the news of the Lancastria also meant that the whole of 'Operation Ariel' was played down for the rest of the war and beyond.
Many of the troops who were evacuated during Ariel had also already been evacuated during Dunkirk. In other words it was just French troops who returned to France after Dunkirk. Many of the British troops after they got back from Dunkirk to Blighty were then sent strait back to France. -
Message 4
Posted by Vizzer aka U_numbers (U2011621) on Saturday, 17th September 2011
In other words it was just French troops who returned to France after Dunkirk.Β
Correction. That, of course, should read:-
'In other words it was not just French troops who returned to France after Dunkirk.' -
Message 5
Posted by PaulRyckier (U1753522) on Saturday, 17th September 2011
Vizzer,
thank you very much for this excellent message. It coincides with all what I found about that episode. And BTW the Gustlof tragedy torpedoed by a Russian submarine seems to have taken most lives in one single act, if I remember it well.
Kind regards and with esteem,
Paul. -
Message 6
Posted by Sambista (U4068266) on Monday, 19th September 2011
Yes, Paul, as so often you are correct. The Gustloff is considered to be the heaviest loss of life - the Goya also seems to have lost over 5,000, with the von Steuben and several Japanese ships having incurred over 3,000 casualties each.
Regards
Gil -
Message 7
Posted by heterodox (U14291406) on Tuesday, 20th September 2011
'Operation Ariel is a largely unknown event in the Second World War.'
And certainly unknown to me.
I was, up to a point, aware of the Lancastria story but I mistakenly believed that it was sunk during the Dynamo operation. The information you have provided has not only put me right but is very interesting as well. Many thanks. -
Message 8
Posted by stalti (U14278018) on Friday, 23rd September 2011
the french troops returned to france from gb after dunkirk is a very hazy tale and very hard to track down
most of those rescued went back to fight
our friend paul ryker did fantstic research in another thread - hopefully he will find it and link it
this is a story that is well worth reading - and not well known
over to you paul
st -
Message 9
Posted by Sambista (U4068266) on Friday, 23rd September 2011
I doubt if the loss of Lancastria would, even then, have equalled the shock that the surrender at St Valery-en-Caux occasioned, when adverse weather conditions prevented the evacuation of 51st Highland etc.
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Message 10
Posted by PaulRyckier (U1753522) on Saturday, 24th September 2011
stalti,
You can download the book, but ti is not a PDF and I am not able for the moment to download in Microsoft word.
It is in PDF but you have to subscribe...
I covered the question in depth on the French messageboard Passion Histoire. For those understanding French: it is on the section "Seconde guerre mondiale" (WWII) the thread: "Où sont passés les 100.000 français embarqués à Dunkerque?" (Where ended the 100,000 French embarked at Dunkirk?)
Kind regards and with esteem,
Paul. -
Message 11
Posted by LongWeekend (U3023428) on Sunday, 25th September 2011
The thing about Lancastria was that she had a large number of civilian refugees aboard, which as a military transport she should not have done undegr a strict interpretation of the rules. At this stage in the war, both sides were quick to point to infringements, trying to score points with neutral US newspaper readers.
Several thousand dead civilians would have been a nightmare thought for a Government still worrying about collapse of civilian morale.
Much of the BEF logistics organisation was in Cherbourg/Bordeaux area and it was intended to rebuild the BEF in that area; hence the return of LOC troops to France, to prepare for the new force, supposedly to based round Alanbrooke's II Corps - which is why his divisions came out from Dunkirk first).
In fact, this plan was rapidly recognised as unworkable, and instead equipment started to be back-loaded to England. How much was actually got away is not widely discussed. The process started before 14 Jun 40. French co-operation in the process could hardly be relied on.
Churchill discusses some of this in "The Second World War", but I agree with Paul, this is a little explored area.
LW -
Message 12
Posted by CASSEROLEON (U11049737) on Sunday, 25th September 2011
I had another look yesterday to try to find where I had read something about the French soldiers going home again.. going through about eight months of Harold Nicholson's War Diaries and Letters..
What I did find , however, may be relevant. At the fall of France some units of the French Navy did defy the authorities and come to British ports.. By early 1941- just days before the attack on the vessels at Oran- Nicholson noted (not for the first time) that the crew of the French ships were quite anxious.. Of course the Germans were bombing British cities and ports, while the French at home were living under the terms of the Armistice.
On another thread I gave details of the categories of POW' s whose release Petain was able to negotiate.. Presumably people of those categories in Britain may have felt that they would be of more use helping their families and communities through what was going to be a long haul.
This may make the situation even more confused but it would suggest that there were French ships in British ports capable of taking French soldiers back home..
But would Britain have allowed the ships to sail to ports where they might be used by the Germans?
Cass -
Message 13
Posted by Sambista (U4068266) on Sunday, 25th September 2011
I had another look yesterday to try to find where I had read something about the French soldiers going home again.. going through about eight months of Harold Nicholson's War Diaries and Letters..
What I did find , however, may be relevant. At the fall of France some units of the French Navy did defy the authorities and come to British ports.. By early 1941- just days before the attack on the vessels at Oran- Nicholson noted (not for the first time) that the crew of the French ships were quite anxious.. Of course the Germans were bombing British cities and ports, while the French at home were living under the terms of the Armistice.
On another thread I gave details of the categories of POW' s whose release Petain was able to negotiate.. Presumably people of those categories in Britain may have felt that they would be of more use helping their families and communities through what was going to be a long haul.
This may make the situation even more confused but it would suggest that there were French ships in British ports capable of taking French soldiers back home..
But would Britain have allowed the ships to sail to ports where they might be used by the Germans?
°δ²Ή²υ²υΜύ Operation Catapult provides the answer. All French naval vessels in British ports were seized, and attempts were made (successfully for vessels in the West Indies and Alexandria) to get the local commanders to immobilise their ships. Where that was unachievable (Mers-el-Kebir, Dakar) forcible attempts were made to prevent them falling into Axis hands. Those French sailors from vessels in UK ports who chose not to join the Free French were interned. -
Message 14
Posted by CASSEROLEON (U11049737) on Sunday, 25th September 2011
Ur-Lugal
Thanks for that..When exactly?
Cass -
Message 15
Posted by PaulRyckier (U1753522) on Sunday, 25th September 2011
Addendum:
I have now the "Dissertation-French soldiers" as Doc in Words and read it this evening. Tried to copy it into this message, but it didn't work. But if I can download it I suppose everyone can do it
...
Kind regards, Paul. -
Message 16
Posted by Sambista (U4068266) on Sunday, 25th September 2011
3rd July, except for the attempt on Dakar, which was later - September, IIRC.
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