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"America's Planned War On Britain: Revealed"

• Message 1.Μύ

  Posted by Herewordless (U14549396) on Wednesday, 14th September 2011

  Not the 1775 or 1812 wars, either.
  
  
  
  I was intrigued to see this tv ad for FIVE channel's doc on Tuesday 20th at 8pm, thinking that it would be one of the above. But no, it was something more sinister, if this doc will be believed?
  
  So the premise goes, during the late 1920's the US top brass conceived a plan to make war on Great Britain and build air bases capable of bombing Canada, a British dominion. It was an idea developed further in the 30's and was only shelved in 1939 when war in Europe broke out.
  
  Nice allies, our Colonial "friends", but I'll await the programme's conclusion with interest.
  
  Should Hitler have waited a year or so?

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• Message 2

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  Posted by Triceratops (U3420301) on Thursday, 15th September 2011

  One of a number of colour coded plans the USA had for different eventualities. I wouldn't read too much into it.
  
  Here it is;
  
  
  and the Canadian counter plan;
  

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• Message 3

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  Posted by dmatt47 (U13073434) on Thursday, 15th September 2011

  Interesting, not least because this has been in the public domain for nearly 40 years, I wonder what Churchill would have said!. It will be interesting to see if the Americans considered that France might try and save Quebec.

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• Message 4

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  Posted by cloudyj (U1773646) on Thursday, 15th September 2011

  So the premise goes, during the late 1920's the US top brass conceived a plan to make war on Great Britain and build air bases capable of bombing Canada, a British dominion. It was an idea developed further in the 30's and was only shelved in 1939 when war in Europe broke out.
  
  Nice allies, our Colonial "friends", but I'll await the programme's conclusion with interest.Μύ
  
  Those nice allies were merely responding to a Canadian plan to invade the US, so perhaps your condemnation should be aimed at the Canadians for their warlike designs?
  
  And had things gone differently in 1940 a US plan to invade Britain could have been invaluable in liberating us!
  
  The late 1850's were a far lower point in Anglo-Canadian-US relations. A US preparing to split over slavery had several prominent politicians espousing a foreign war to unite the people at home. Canada was the favourite target of northern politicians, southerners wanted Cuba (for the slaves).

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• Message 5

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  Posted by Mutatis_Mutandis (U8620894) on Thursday, 15th September 2011

  War Plan Red was mostly drafted to give the US Army a purpose. It was prepared "in consultation" with the Navy, because the USN refused to collaborate on it. The Army's problem, in the 1930s, was the lack of a possible enemy. The US Navy could plan for a naval war with Japan (War Plan Orange), and defend its budgets accordingly. But the Army was stuck on a continent without enemies and saw itself shrink. Hence the "need" for Plan Red, a plan for a war with Britain that was planned mostly as a land war... although Britain was of course primarily a naval power.
  
  The Army cheerfully wrote USN out of the potential conflict: The fleet would have to be content with defending the coast, while the army would swell to 4.6 million men and march on Canada. Even the Marines were to be kept distant from the action. The USN looked on with a lot of skepticism and predicted that in case of a war between the UK and the USA, Canada would simply declare itself neutral. However, probably mostly not to offend the Army, the war plans board accepted it.
  

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• Message 6

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  Posted by Herewordless (U14549396) on Thursday, 15th September 2011

  And had things gone differently in 1940 a US plan to invade Britain could have been invaluable in liberating us!Μύ
  Had that happened in 1940, and Hitler marched in, the US would never have been able to get a toe-hold in Britain- several thousand miles away and a naval invasion at the end of it?

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• Message 7

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  Posted by Vizzer aka U_numbers (U2011621) on Thursday, 15th September 2011

  Now, military experts and historians work through the plans as a war game, showing how they would have worked in practice and revealing who would have won if Great Britain's closest ally had ever become its most dangerous enemy.Μύ
  One would have thought that Northern Ireland was 'Great Britain's closest ally'. Or if that 'Radio Times' article is using the term 'Great Britain' as shorthand for 'the UK' then one would have thought that Canada itself or Newfoundland or Australia or New Zealand etc would all have qualified as being closer allies of the UK rather than the US. It seems that the 'Radio Times' is perhaps mistaking the word 'closest' for the term 'most important'. Not the same thing.
  
  That said - I agree with those who suggest that there is nothing particularly shocking about this 'revelation'. Ever since the War of 1812 the US had always considered the British Empire to be the single biggest threat to its existence. For example even during the Civil War in the 1860s the presence of French Napleonic troops (in combat action) in Mexico was deemed far less of a threat than was the presence of British forces in Canada. And as cloudyj has said the main focus of the US army was in seeking to deal with the threat of a Canadian/UK attack down the Hudson River valley towards New York City. To this end there must have been many defence plans and war games drawn up by the US army top brass over the decades. As Mutatis Mutandis has suggested 'War Plan Red' was just the latest of these.
  
  It was only with with the signing of the Atlantic Charter in 1941 that the US/Canada border became officially undefended.

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• Message 8

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  Posted by cloudyj (U1773646) on Friday, 16th September 2011

  For example even during the Civil War in the 1860s the presence of French Napleonic troops (in combat action) in Mexico was deemed far less of a threat than was the presence of British forces in Canada.Μύ
  
  Not so much a threat as an opportunity. There were politicians hoping that they could have used intervention in Mexico as another way of drawing the US together after the civil war.
  
  For example even during the Civil War in the 1860s the presence of French Napleonic troops (in combat action) in Mexico was deemed far less of a threat than was the presence of British forces in Canada. And as cloudyj has said the main focus of the US army was in seeking to deal with the threat of a Canadian/UK attack down the Hudson River valley towards New York City.Μύ
  
  Ironically, it was the British cabinet who were becoming very sharply aware of how precarious their hold on Canada would be if they intervened in the US civil war. Despite rhetoric calling for an invasion of Canada (to complete the revolution), Britain had little reason to attack the US. The closest to a flashpoint was probably then Trent Affair when the US navy boarded British ships and removed two Confederate diplomats. The British Press went wild and public opinion in the northern US couldn't understand why. The arguments surrounding the legality of boarding neutral ships being the exact reverse of those during the war of 1812. During cabinet discussions about how to respond, the seemingly indefensible position in Canada moderated the British response and soon the pro-union sympathy of the majority of the British public returned.

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• Message 9

  , in reply to message 6.

  Posted by cloudyj (U1773646) on Friday, 16th September 2011

  Had that happened in 1940, and Hitler marched in, the US would never have been able to get a toe-hold in Britain- several thousand miles away and a naval invasion at the end of it?
  Μύ
  
  Politically they may never have wanted to, but were the practicalities much worse than those in the Pacific?

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• Message 10

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  Posted by Sambista (U4068266) on Friday, 16th September 2011

  Worse than the P:acific? Yes. The Pacific camapaigns were largely island-hopping over relatively short distances, with secure rearward bases in theatre.

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• Message 11

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  Posted by Herewordless (U14549396) on Friday, 16th September 2011

  Exactly, Ur-Lugal, not exactly thriving with expediently-placed islands the Atlantic, is it?
  
  US to UK = too far, too dangerous militarily (U-Boats and weather) and too illogical

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