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`Custers Last stand
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Message 1.Β
Posted by stalti (U14278018) on Saturday, 27th August 2011
i watched the most fantastic documentary today on custers last stand
using modern technology they re investigated this battle
they proved that there was no heroic last stand - the whole battle lasted about 1 hour with the 7th cavalry decimated by a resolute and skilful foe using concealment and modern tactics to decimate the american elite troops
it actually traced one indians route in the battle by tracing his cartridge cases !!
it actually showed the movement of each individual soldier till their deaths by the use of technology identifying cartridge cases
it destoyed in one fell swoop the legend of the battle
it also made me wonder what other legends are there to be laid bare by new technology
charge of the light brigade isandhlwana
who knows
st -
Message 2
Posted by CASSEROLEON (U11049737) on Sunday, 28th August 2011
stalti
It is interesting that Custer's Last Stand happened around the time of what Matthew Arnold called "the Anglo-Saxon contagion"..
Darwinism and historical research combined into racism and folk history with great emphasis being placed upon the Teutons, whose history and folk traditions were common to the emerging German Empire, and the Anglo-Saxons of England and the Americas.
J.R. Green's radically new "A Short History of the English People" (1874) places a great emphasis on the Teutonic merits of the English people in the Darwinian struggles for the survival of the fittest with his version of the Anglo-Saxon invasion and the extermination of the British surrounded by a "ring of steel". And one of the features of this tradition was the "last ditch stand" in which the Teutonic spirit dictated a policy of no surrender and fighting on till everyone was dead. It was all part of the education of what I call "The Lost Generation" that perished in the First World war, because they had been miseducated by decades of this kind of warrior talk for 40 years before 1914.
Regarding "Custer's Last Stand"- as often happens with press reporting an existing "template" seems to have been applied to this particular battle, though I am not sure from what you write just how this programme showed that the term would not be justified. The most heroic "last stand" is that against militarily superior forces in which death is inevitable.
One point of detail from the programme- presumably the forensic science can link the cartridge to the rifle, but perhaps it should not be presumed that the link between rifle and the individual soldier was quite so fixed. In a "last ditch stand" presumably the rifles of dead comrades were then appropriated by those still fighting when they had run out of bullets.
Cass -
Message 3
Posted by CDozer (U14970196) on Sunday, 28th August 2011
I have also found it interseting that this is the only know battlefield battle that marks the location of where each soldier fell.
It is unfortuante that lessons have to be learned through others scarifice.
One factor in this was that the 7th Cav were literally worn out. Their bodies were beaten up due to their long rides on the horses and the nutritional standards of the day. The men were really not up to the task physically.
Their firearms were also not suited to this style of fighting. They didn't have the ditance that the aborginals had with their selection. The carbines the Cav used also become prone to failure as the battle went on due to the heat of constant shoting. The brass cartiages also became prone to fail and jam which made the sitaution even worse.
Outside of this, having a commander who is overzealous is the worst factor of all. Even if Gen. Custer is regarded as a great military leader, you have to keep yourself in check all the time. Just becasue you were good yestarday, doesn't mean you are today. It is just too bad he had to take the rest his men out before he realized this. -
Message 4
Posted by Vizzer aka U_numbers (U2011621) on Sunday, 28th August 2011
The legend of 'Custer's Last Stand' has always had to be taken with a pinch of salt. The fact was that the Battle of the Little Big Horn was humiliating defeat for the US army (and for the 7th cavalry in particular) and so the myth of the 'last stand' was developed by the US establishment in to try put a gloss on the event.
That said - Custer has not been without his critics in America and was seen as something of an embarrassment by Washington. So it's not strictly correct that the legend has only now been exposed. For example his reputation for 'reckless dash' was earned during the American Civil War. This term 'reckless dash' was itself something of a euphemism as it included (among other things) Custer's profligate sacrifice of hundreds of US cavalrymen under his command during the Battle of Gettysburg.
The Charge of the Light Brigade could be similar, although, Russian accounts of the events of the day differ little from the British so it's difficult to see what new evidence could be unearthed which would significantly alter our understanding of what happened.
With regard to Isandlwana then there doesn't seem to be a 'legend' attached to the battle - or at least not one that I've heard of. There are similarities with The Little Big Horn, however, in that it occurred only 3 years later and involved an invading smaller (but supposedly better equipped) force being destroyed by a larger and more skilful native force. If there is a battle, however, which could be a candidate for myth-busting then it might be the subsequent encounter at Rorke's Drift. -
Message 5
Posted by Triceratops (U3420301) on Sunday, 28th August 2011
ST,
There are two good books about the LBH published since the investigation,
"A Terrible Glory" by James Donovan and "Last Stand" by Nathaniel Philbrick
Check out your local library to see if they have them (if they don't, they can get them in)
and
"Archaeology, History and Custers Last Battle" by Dick Fox gives the methods and results of the forensic work.
There has been work done at Isandlwana. Turns out there was no ammunition shortage;
and the line was 200 yards further out than previously thought. -
Message 6
Posted by Triceratops (U3420301) on Sunday, 28th August 2011
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Message 7
Posted by stalti (U14278018) on Sunday, 28th August 2011
it was indeed the dick fox book the documentary was based on - how fantastic was that research - took 10 years
cass - u are correct - the original account of the battle was the anglo saxon "ring of steel" it turned out not to be the anglo saxons grouped around the flag with whooping savages circling them with stone age weapons till the last man was dead
more that the latka using modern weapons destroyed custers skirmish line piecemeal using modern tactics and modern weapons - there was no glory in the defeat
i can remember the islhwandana one now - where they proved there was no ammunition shortage
any others
st -
Message 8
Posted by Vizzer aka U_numbers (U2011621) on Monday, 29th August 2011
Another candidate would be the 'last stand' at Gandamak in Afghanistan in 1842.
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Message 9
Posted by Triceratops (U3420301) on Monday, 29th August 2011
Bosworth, the battlefield's two miles from where it was thought to be.
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Message 10
Posted by caissier (U14073060) on Tuesday, 20th September 2011
On Custer's madcap behaviour ..... there is a story that he went out riding in hostile territory and, trying to shoot a small prairie hamster (or something), killed his own horse by shooting it in the head. He was lucky in being found and rescued by some of his officers.
Reading various history books instances emerge of bad officers and their being 'removed'. One account from the Battle of the Atlantic tells of a very dangerous officer in charge of depth-charges being pushed overboard and nobody saying anything further about it, even though it was widely known of aboard ship.
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