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Ireland & Second World War
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Message 1.Â
Posted by SmegheadRed (U1879559) on Wednesday, 17th August 2005
In connection to my other question, I read a letter on Ceefax a while ago that suggested that Ireland was a willing ally of Nazi Germany and helped her with submarine and aircraft bases during the conflict. Can anyone tell me if that is a common opinion in Britain?
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Message 2
Posted by Lindau (U709807) on Wednesday, 17th August 2005
My great-grandad was about 30 at the time of the second world war, he told me and my dad about a bombing raid by the Nazis on Rosslare in County Wexford. This may prove that they were not allies, it may be a mistake by bombers, (apparently only two bombs exploded) or he may have been a little confused. Anyone got any further information about this.
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Message 3
Posted by SmegheadRed (U1879559) on Wednesday, 17th August 2005
That bombing raid was apparently a mistake, the bomber was lost and jettisoned its cargo, so that it could try and escpae any fighters it encountered, as it endeavoured to find the war back to France.
There was also a bombing raid on the North Strand in Dublin in 1941, in which six people were killed. The Nazi govt said it was a mistake, but many have said that it was a small reminder to the Irish that neutrality would not protect them against agression. In any case, Hitler apologised through the German Legation in Dublin and compensation was paid. -
Message 4
Posted by arnaldalmaric (U1756653) on Thursday, 18th August 2005
In connection to my other question, I read a letter on Ceefax a while ago that suggested that Ireland was a willing ally of Nazi Germany and helped her with submarine and aircraft bases during the conflict. Can anyone tell me if that is a common opinion in Britain?Â
SmegheadRed,
Hi, In answer I think I can state (without much fear of contradiction) that it isn't a common opinion in Britain. I know I'm now going to regret that bit in brackets. It's the first time I can remember seiing such a thing. As far as I'm concerned Ireland followed a policy of strict neutrality and so upset the British and Germans about equally, ususally a good sign that you are being neutral.
Probably Fisk "In time of War; Ireland, Ulster and the Price of Neutrality 1939 - 1945" is as good a place to start as any.
Cheers AA. -
Message 5
Posted by SmegheadRed (U1879559) on Thursday, 18th August 2005
Cheers AA,
Alays good to get another opinion. I've just come across a letter in Churchill's 'Gathering Storm', in which he says that U-boats were refueling in the Western Inlets of Ireland. Any thoughts on that? (just as an aside, Ireland was so short of oil that the trains were running on turf.)
Smeg -
Message 6
Posted by arnaldalmaric (U1756653) on Thursday, 18th August 2005
Amazing what you can find when you get a bit interested. This bit comes from the diary of Guy Lidell Director of Counter Espionage MI5, 18th January 1940 "A submarine base is said to exist near the mouth of the Doonbeg River in southwest Clare".
Investigations did not support this allegation.
I suspect that many allegations were made, most if not all are along the lines of modern urban legends. Consider that in the many years that have gone by nobody from either side has come forward and told their story. That's a pretty tight conspiracy if it exists.
So, Ireland was helping British Intelligence, sent firemen to assist after Belfast was bombed, repatriated most (if not all) Allied airmen and sailors who landed on Irish soil yet interned most (if not all) Axis airmen and sailors who landed and refuelling German U boats.
That's a pretty tall tale for me to believe. So, I'm afraid I can't. If Ireland was intent on aiding Germany then surely they'd have found a better way of doing it? (And I should have qualified my earlier post with a more or less strict neutrality).
Cheers AA. -
Message 7
Posted by SmegheadRed (U1879559) on Thursday, 18th August 2005
Thats a great helpl, much appreciated!
Smeg -
Message 8
Posted by Luis99 (U1688250) on Saturday, 20th August 2005
'repatriated most (if not all) Allied airmen and sailors who landed on Irish soil '
Thats the truth of the matter. Interestingly, Brendan Behan was interned in the Curragh at the same time as many of the airmen and he and his colleagues regarded tyhe allied airmen who did not go back to Britain as slackers.
It was so taken for granted that the airmen could easily go back if they wanted thta it was assumed those who didn't were avoiding the war. -
Message 9
Posted by Binge-Drinker (U1655287) on Saturday, 20th August 2005
Their were Irish foremen working for the Germans on building projects in the Channel Islands, also some Belgians.
There was also a fellow whose name (farrant?) escapes me who I think was of Irish origin and a bit of a crook, who became a sort of double agent, he worked for the side that paid him, in other words if someone wanted information and they paid him, he gave it. He was in and out of jail, before, during and after the war. I think it was arrested by the Germans before the end of the war.
Cheers Nick -
Message 10
Posted by steveP (U1775134) on Sunday, 21st August 2005
Arnald - replying to message 6
I have come across a number of references to U-boats getting aid and supplies from Ireland, but no real evidence. The most extreme case was a book serialised in one of the British Sunday papers about 20-25 years ago. Don't know if anyone can remember any more details. It was supposed to be the story of an agent who worked for the British secret service aided in his operations by being only about 14 years old at the time, and hence ignored as a possible suspect. One of the tasks he was involved in was helping destroy a base in southern Ireland were U boats were being refuelled. Despite being about that age at the time and confident of my and other 14 years olds, abilities to be able to perform as an adult I took it with a very large peace of salt!
There were probably mixed feeling in the republic. Traditional hatreds and the fact the IRA had been conducting a campaign against Britain only a few years before probably tempted some to aid the Nazis. Plus the old myth that Britain's peril was Ireland's opportunity. On the other hand those who accepted the division of Ireland by consent, or simply recognised the great threat posed by the Nazis to every other culture would have been prone to aid Britain.
Steve -
Message 11
Posted by Ozymandias (U1727865) on Sunday, 21st August 2005
I do not know whether it is downright ignorance or a need to engage in some Paddy bashing but much of what is said on these boards about the Republic of Ireland in this period is quite wrong. Sometimes there is a grain of truth in what is said but it is put across in such a way as to tar the whole country with the same propagandist brush.
For example, some commentators point to the fact that the Irish Army wore a helmet very similar to that of the German Wehrmacht, thus imputing Nazi sympathies to the Irish state by association. The truth is that in 1926 the Irish government commissioned a new helmet for the army and on foot of recent international military experience chose a design based upon the German steel helmet of WWI which was shown to afford the best protection. In 1926 Germany was prohibited from exporting military equipment so the British company Vickers was contracted to supply the Irish Army with 10,000 of these helmets.
In recent times a considerable amount of Irish and British government archival material has been released into the public domain and historians have been re-assessing the period. Some pieces by T. Ryle Dwyer are available on the internet (google his name and select the ‘Kerryman 1999’ article about submarines in the west of Ireland).
For a fairly good and objective account of Irish neutrality during World War Two I would strongly recommend that interested board members google ‘Irish Neutrality Wikipedia’ and read the article.
Best Wishes, Oz. -
Message 12
Posted by gooserss (U1983611) on Wednesday, 7th September 2005
i think eire trod a near impossible path of neutrality in ww2. The old myth of u boats refuelling in ireland is untrue, although whether they used neutral waters to move around remains an unknown factor. if i was a uboat captain i would have used the waters as i used the neutral waters of portugal and spain.
The irish govt allowed the air corridor to be used by allied planes going out to hunt or protect the convoys, this is illegal under neutrality laws. Maybe it all evens up.
Allied pilots were all returned, where technically they should have been interned. Some of the aircraft were interned, mainly british. Indeed the irish airforce bolstered their forces by using interned hurricains. Later in the war the british sold them outdated hurricanes and parts to increase the size of their force.
As someone whose grandfather was an arp warden in belfast and on duty the night of the heavy bombing raid, it is true fire engines from the south came north to help. a wonderful act of solidarity was marred by the fact the pump sizes of irish engines fail to match the northern specification, and little practical help was available.
There is however evidence that certain members of the irish pop were pro german - the same can be said of the uk.
German spies had links with the ira, landed arms and ira members by sub in n.ireland and the south. They also used the ira to help locate the names and address of all the jewish families living in the south and the north. a interesting film - the cross and the swastika - caused an uproar when unveiled at a Gaelic film vestval several yrs ago.
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