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Quick question on British WWII tanks (DDay to Berlin)
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Message 1.Β
Posted by jenny (U14149730) on Sunday, 5th June 2011
Hi - just a quick question on what the British tanks were after D-Day (having watched DDay to Berlin last night on TV).
Many thanks!Link to this forum: Quick question on British WWII tanks (DDay to Berlin)
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Message 2
Posted by Bish (U14883863) on Sunday, 5th June 2011
If you mean British built tanks, the main one was the Churchill. I think also we may have still been useing the cromwell and crusader. The british also used American built tanks, especially thye Sherman. But many of these were adapted by the british, the main one being thye Firefly, a sherman fitted with a british 17 pounder AT gun.
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Message 3
Posted by ambi (U13776277) on Sunday, 5th June 2011
Mainly Shermans and Churchills, with some Cromwells. Crusaders were out by D Day. In last night's programme I think it was Cromwells and Shermans in their CGI reconstructions. I was quite surprised to see a Grant tank (US markings) in some of the original footage.
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Message 4
Posted by jenny (U14149730) on Monday, 6th June 2011
Many thanks, gents (I assume you're gents!), and will pass the info on to my son, who asked the question via me.
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Message 5
Posted by colonelblimp (U1705702) on Tuesday, 7th June 2011
As well as the tanks already mentioned, there were also:
Centaur - pretty much identical to the Cromwell, except for the engine. The close support version, with a 95mm howitzer, was used by the Royal Marines on D-Day and immediately afterwards. The original plan was to use them only to provide supporting fire from landing craft off the beaches; in fact, it was even proposed to remove the tanks' engines. In the event, they did go ashore.
Challenger - a 'stretched' Cromwell with a bigger turret mounting a 17-pounder gun like the Sherman Firefly.
Comet - a development of the Cromwell, entering service early in 1945 and armed with a more powerful 77mm gun.
Stuart - a US-built light reconnaissance tank, sometimes used with the turret removed.
Tetrarch - used in very small numbers. A light tank that could be carried in a Hamilcar glider, in support of airborne landings. Not used at Arnhem but I think a few took part in the Rhine crossing.
Locust - a US built equivalent of the Tetrarch.
Crusader - not used as a battle tank on or after D-Day but an anti-aircraft version saw service in NW Europe, along with a turretless tractor for towing anti-tank guns.
Valentine - again, not used as a battle tank but I believe the odd example was used as a mobile observation post for Royal Artillery batteries.
Grant - a small number of so-called 'Canal Defence Light' conversions, which actually had nothing to do with canals but mounted a powerful searchlight intended to blind enemy tank crews. Used to provide illumination during the Rhine crossing.Link to this forum: Quick question on British WWII tanks (DDay to Berlin)
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Message 6
Posted by jenny (U14149730) on Wednesday, 8th June 2011
Wow! Many thanks indeed! I knew I'd get good answers here and I have.
Very many thanks to all - I'm stunned at how much knowledge there is here.
Though, of course, I am always stunned by just how fascinating males seem to find (a) vehicles and (b) weapons. So since tanks are both vehicles and weapons I guess they are the ultimate source of fascination (along with warships and warplanes of course!!!!!)
I will pass this latest info (incredibly comprehensive!) on to my home-grown vehicle/weapon-fascinated male....
(I think if only someone could invent a missile-launching Ferrari he'd be in heaven!!!!)Link to this forum: Quick question on British WWII tanks (DDay to Berlin)
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Message 7
Posted by colonelblimp (U1705702) on Wednesday, 8th June 2011
You're welcome! And yes, fair point - as a middle-aged male, ever since my schooldays I've never lacked for friends who are also into tanks and aeroplanes (though, for some reason, ships don't seem to be quite so popular). My wife shares your bemusement........
There are some nice illustrations of the tanks that have been mentioned in this thread, on this website:
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Message 8
Posted by jenny (U14149730) on Wednesday, 8th June 2011
You've very generously ommitted to riposte that at least an interest in vehicles and weapons is slightly more intellectually taxing than an interest in shopping and dieting!!!
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Message 9
Posted by Bish (U14883863) on Wednesday, 8th June 2011
maybe because we wouldn't stoop so low as to suggest woman think of nothing else
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Message 10
Posted by Sambista (U4068266) on Wednesday, 8th June 2011
I recall being told by a former Mastermind producer that they could easily make an entire series of the programme with the Great Western Railway as the only specialist subject .....
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Message 11
Posted by Sambista (U4068266) on Wednesday, 8th June 2011
Re Valentine tanks post-D Day. A considerable number of Valentines were used in the form of the 17-pdr armed Archer tank destroyer (with a look vaguely reminiscent of the jibes about Italian tanks, because the gun was mounted to fire backwards, over the engine)
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Message 12
Posted by TrailApe (U1701496) on Tuesday, 21st June 2011
The Archer wasn't really a tank.
The British had developed one of the ultimate anti-tank weapons of the war - the 17lb Gun.
However it was a beast of a gun, and in it's towed version, not easy to rapidly deploy. Now one of the doctrines deeply embedded in the German military psyche is immedeate and effective counter attack. So we knew that if we did make ground, within minutes the Germans would come roaring back hellbent to push back the allies before
1) We can regroup and make good our losses (remember attacking well prepared defenses is a particularly bloody business)
2) We can prepare defenses (like dig in 17lbers)
Now the 6lber, which was the standard A/T gun was good, but was not particulary effective against Panthers and Tigers. So we needed a way to get the 17lber into action quite quickly. Obviously there would have been the Fireflies and Challengers around, but they could be called away at a moments notice to operate in other sectors, so the infantry needed something that they could depend on being there.
So they installed 17lbers on valentine tanks (as described in previous post), manned them with artillerymen and used them to rapidly deploy 17lbers in the A/T role.
The performance of British armour in Normandy has been criticised by many - starting with Liddel-Hart, but it's worth noting that the Germans armour, whenever it left it's defensive stance and went onto the attack - as in these counter attacks - was given a rough handling by the British (often hastily prepared) defense, so it's not too hard to undersatnd the high losses suffered by the British, Canadian and Polish armour at this time in the war, as for the main, they were on the offense all of the time.Link to this forum: Quick question on British WWII tanks (DDay to Berlin)
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Message 13
Posted by Sambista (U4068266) on Tuesday, 21st June 2011
Archers were often used as a stopgap, whilst the towed 17 pdrs were being brought up and deployed. Particularly useful where the local armour were Churchills - the small size of the turret ring meant that the 17 pdr wasn't really an option for Churchills.
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Message 14
Posted by TrailApe (U1701496) on Wednesday, 22nd June 2011
Not only did the Churchills and Cromwells suffer from a turret ring that could not be upgunned, they also suffered from the decision to go with the 75mm Medium Velocity gun as opposed to the 6lber. The 75 had an excellent HE capability (good for killing grunts, A/T guns and other soft targets) but a very mediocre anti-armour capability. The 6lb was the opposite, mediocre HE but excellent against armour. The first Tiger and Panther taken down by a Western Allied AFV was by 6lber Churchills.
It’s a fascinating read about why this decision was made, but it seems that the main reason was from lessons learned in the North Africa campaign. There the biggest tank killers had been A/T guns and to counter this the Army Chiefs (Monty in particular) wanted the 75mm as the standard tank gun, as they felt that this trend would continue. Unfortunately in Normandy, the British/Canadians/Polish (21st ARMY Group) ran up against more MkIV’s, Panthers, Tigers and even Tiger IIs than you could shake a stick at, and the 6lber/75mm decision started to look a Very Bad Call. Luckily the Sherman Firefly was coming on stream by that time, but for a time it looked very grim for the Allies when armour clashed head to head.
In their defence, nobody really expected the stalemate in the bocage country. Rommel was in charge and looking at his past record of manoeuvre warfare you would never have expected him to dig in and go for a hard defensive stance. Added to that you had the allied navies just offshore and nobody in their right mind would conduct operations in an area threatened by anything up to 16 inch gunfire – and when you add in the allied air force ground attack options, you can see why Monty et all thought Rommel would do a fluid hit and run defence well back from the beachheads.
But Rommel decided on a hard defence and we then spent 2 months slogging it out in the bocage against the cream of the Western PanzerGruppen armed with mainly medium velocity grunt killers. Talk about taking a knife to a gunfightLink to this forum: Quick question on British WWII tanks (DDay to Berlin)
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Message 15
Posted by LongWeekend (U3023428) on Tuesday, 28th June 2011
jenny
Belatedy, but I have the file out.
Shermans, including Fireflies, equipped the armoured regiments of the Guards, 11th, 4th Canadian and 1st Polish Armoured Divisions, and the independent armoured brigades.
The armoured regiments of 7th Armoured Division and the Czech Armoured Brigade had Cromwells. The armoured regiments in 7th Armd Div also had Fireflies. Cromwells also equipped the armoured reconnaissance regiments of all the armoured divisions. These regiments did not have Fireflies. As a result of Normandy experience, they were later issued 17-lbr equipped Challengers (a Cromwell derivative) in lieu of Fireflies. In 1945 they were redesignated armoured regiments.
In early 1945, 29th Armoured Brigade in 11th Armd Div was re-equipped with Comets. 22nd Armd Bde (7 Armd) was re-equipping at the war's end.
All armoured and armoured recce regiments used M3 and/or M5 Stuart light tanks in their recce troops, some with turrets removed. Some regiments had received M24 Chaffee light tanks by the end of the war.
The tank regiments in Tank brigades, intended for infantry support, were equipped with Churchill tanks. They did not have Fireflies, as the infantry divisions they were supporting were supposed to provide A/Tk support. Most Churchill regiments kept or retro-fitted 6-lbrs to some of their tanks as, as noted in a previous post, the 6-lbr had superior anti-tank performance to the 75mm
79th Armd Div, of course, had various types of specialist armour.
Hope this helps your resident spotter.
LWLink to this forum: Quick question on British WWII tanks (DDay to Berlin)
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