Wars and ConflictsÌý permalink
Ireland neutral during WW2----how so?
This discussion has been closed.
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Message 1.Ìý
Posted by vesturiiis (U13688567) on Sunday, 29th May 2011
Can't quite fathom how Ireland would remain neutral. I realize there is the political angle but with total war beginning the middle ground seemed shaky.
Was there payback to this neutral stance after the war? -
Message 2
Posted by Grumpyfred (U2228930) on Sunday, 29th May 2011
Why should they come in on the side of the British? Their President hated us, as did most of their Government. Would they come in on the side of Germany? Unlikely, even when it looked like Germany could win the war. It could have led to a second civil war in Ireland. President Kennidy's Father did suggest to the US Gov. though that they should throw Britain to the German wolves. So supposing they did come in on the side of Germany and everything else remained the samem with the US supporting GB, then entering the war in 1941. Would Ireland be told it was very naughty to side with Germany and don't do it again, or would they face invasion. Would the USSR allow an axis power to be left alone? But many Irish men fought and died fighting in the British armed forces. And for that we should be greatful. Oh what about the other countries that stayed neutral (And made a lot of money out of it?
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Message 3
Posted by jenny (U14149730) on Monday, 30th May 2011
Isn't it just a question of 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend'?
Irish politics haven't exactly been famous for taking a global perspective, as they are so tunnelled visioned on England/Britain. It's understandable in many ways, but perhaps Irish non-involvement in WWII marks a turning point for them, and post-WWII they became a 'global' nation, or at least a 'European' one, which of course they now are. They can now see beyond England to a world beyond, with both opportunities and responsibilities other than to themselves.
England/Britain and Ireland do seem to be like two tormented and tormenting siblings - each island is a curse to the other one! -
Message 4
Posted by giraffe47 (U4048491) on Monday, 30th May 2011
Ireland finally became 'independent' in 1937, after 800 years fighting the 'British' in one form or another. It was ruled by many of the same IRA men who had led the rebellion in 1916, some of whose guns had been supplied by the Germans.
I think it would have been political suicide to join the British in 1939 in another war, no matter how they felt about Herr Hitler! -
Message 5
Posted by JB on a slippery slope to the thin end ofdabiscuit (U13805036) on Monday, 30th May 2011
As the joke went in the Free State during 'The Emergency,' "But who are we neutral against?"
Dev and co held out to the end under quite strong US pressure to come in on the Allied side if only in the final few weeks, or days, of the war, as Peron and his Pro-Nazi mates in Argentina did. In spite of refusing to joing the Allies, Ireland still got Marshall Aid.
But as shown on the 'Coast' prog last week, the Irish govt placed navigation markers along its west coast to assist US aircraft, and also did nothing to stop its nationals joinng the British Army and allowed the RAF Sunderlands to fly over Co Sligo from Lough Erne on their Atlantic patrols.
The condolences on the death of Hitler has been argued over. It was strictly in accordance with diplomatic nicities.
The unanswerable is what would Dev and co have done in the face of a Nazi invasion? Plenty would have resisted, but how many would have collaborated? -
Message 6
Posted by dmatt47 (U13073434) on Monday, 30th May 2011
It ia well-known (there was a two-part story on one of the history channels) that a number of prominent Nazis were given refuge for a time in Ireland after the Second World War, Dutch art collector Pieter Menten being one. It is difficult to see how this matches Irish neutrality during the Second World War. There is apparently a set of documents at The National Archives, Kew (and presumably also in Dublin), about the contacts between De Valera and the British Intelligence Services, the last thing the UK wanted was to fight on two fronts and Ireland was not strong economically. When the Nazis accidentally bombed Dublin that would not have encuoraged Ireland to join with Germany.
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Message 7
Posted by The Prisoner (U14174596) on Monday, 30th May 2011
the last thing the UK wanted was to fight on two frontsÌý
yes I believe this suited the UK
and the Irish turned a blind eye to UK flyover of its territory etc
the UK would have had to expend much money and resources, defending Ireland from attack and invasion, if Ireland were to have allied itself with UK. -
Message 8
Posted by ShaneONeal (U14303502) on Monday, 30th May 2011
Can't quite fathom how Ireland would remain neutral. I realize there is the political angle but with total war beginning the middle ground seemed shaky.
Was there payback to this neutral stance after the war?Ìý The Free State had been independent only 17 years by 1939.
The Irish believed that Ireland should be united and that Britian possessed the 6-counties by force and undemocratically.
The view that Britain, Germany and France were imperialist countries that regularly went head-to-head in order to be top-dog was prevalent.
The view that German atrocity stories were similar to those of the WWI 'turning Belgian babies into glue' variety and were basically propaganda in order to use the working class as canon fodder.
It was important to the Irish state to underline its independence, particularly from the UK.
All the above were commonly believed ideas and neutrality was widely popular policy across the political boundaries in the Free State. -
Message 9
Posted by Harpo (U14643022) on Tuesday, 31st May 2011
Can't quite fathom how Ireland would remain neutral. I realize there is the political angle but with total war beginning the middle ground seemed shaky.
Ìý You could ask the same qiestion about the US and some twenty other countries in Europe at the time.
However, if you check it out you will find that Ireland was not neutral but was very much pro-Allied.
It is a question of style over substance. Nominally (stylistically) she was neutral; actually (substantially) she was not. -
Message 10
Posted by Harpo (U14643022) on Tuesday, 31st May 2011
PS: The renowned correspondent Robert Fisk did his PhD thesis in Trintiy College Dublin on the question of Ireland's neutrality in WWII. You should read his book: -
In Time of War: Ulster and the Price of irish Neutrality (1983). -
Message 11
Posted by cloudyj (U1773646) on Tuesday, 31st May 2011
PS: The renowned correspondent Robert Fisk did his PhD thesis in Trintiy College Dublin on the question of Ireland's neutrality in WWII. You should read his bookÌý
Hi Harpo,
I understand the reasoning at the beginning of the war (and certainly recognize that the Irish government bent neutrality in favour os the Allies).
Does Fisk say why Ireland stayed neutral all the way to the end? One of the conditions for joining the UN was to declare war on Germany and several nations did so whilst contributing far less than a neutral Ireland. Did this weigh into Irish decision making at all? -
Message 12
Posted by Harpo (U14643022) on Tuesday, 31st May 2011
Cloudyj,
Ireland did not join the UN until 1955, ten years after the war. The Irish considered the war an extension of the First World War and, at bottom, a conflict between imperial powers. Our neutrality was adopted before the war and was clearly flagged by De Valera in the League of Nations. The newly adopted Constitution of 1937 (which we still have today) prohibits us from making war or joining in war and enjoins on us an obligation to seek conflict resolution by peaceful means. Article 29 says:
(1) Ireland affirms its devotion to the ideal of peace and friendly co-operation amongst nations founded on international justice and morality.
(2) Ireland affirms its adherence to the principle of the pacific settlement of international disputes by international arbitration or judicial determination.
(3) Ireland accepts the generally recognised principles of international law as its rule of conduct in its relations with other States.Ìý
Since our joining the UN we have always acted as peacemakers in international war zones. Nearly 100 Irishmen have died serving with UN peace-keeping forces. In 1937 we committed ourselves to international peace, not war, as part of our assertion of our independence. Furthermore, our neutrality was adopted by all political persuasions in the Republic as per that Constitution which also says (Article 28):
(1) War shall not be declared and the State shall not participate in any war save with the assent of Dáil Éireann.
(2) In the case of actual invasion, however, the Government may take whatever steps they may consider necessary for the protection of the State, and Dáil Éireann if not sitting shall be summoned to meet at the earliest practicable date.
(3) Nothing in this Constitution shall be invoked to invalidate any law enacted by the Oireachtas which is expressed to be for the purpose of securing the public safety and the preservation of the State in time of war or armed rebellion, or to nullify any act done or purporting to be done in pursuance of any such law. Ìý
Does Fisk say why Ireland stayed neutral all the way to the end?Ìý It wasn’t just a government decision. It would have required a reversal of the decision taken by the whole of the Irish houses of Parliament and a repudiation of the Republic’s Constitution. It was the policy of the whole country and parliament. Of course, there were dissenting voices but we were, and continue to be, a democracy.
The war was this country’s ‘Emergency’ in which we fought our own war. Frank Aiken, the then Minister for Defence, said of Ireland’s neutrality:-
… in the modern total warfare it is not a condition of peace with both
belligerents, but rather a condition of limited warfare with both…Ìý -
Message 13
Posted by cloudyj (U1773646) on Tuesday, 31st May 2011
Harpo, that pretty much answers my question. I was fairly aware of Ireland bending neutrality to favour the Allies, but wasn't aware of the constitutional provisions preventing a full declaration of war. Thanks!
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Message 14
Posted by Catigern (U14419012) on Monday, 13th June 2011
the Irish govt ... and allowed the RAF Sunderlands to fly over Co Sligo from Lough Erne on their Atlantic patrols.Ìý
'Allowed'? What else were they going to do - send the mighty Irish air force, with their box-kites and paper darts, to intercept the allied aircraft...?
The condolences on the death of Hitler has been argued over. It was strictly in accordance with diplomatic nicities.Ìý
It says a lot about Dev and co. that they still thought Nazi Germany worthy of 'diplomatic niceties' once the true nature of Hitler's regime had become apparent with the liberation of death camps...
What are we to make of the fact that a crowd led by future Irish premier Charles Haughey marked VE day with a public burning of the Union Flag...
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Message 15
Posted by Michael Alexander Kearsley (U1675895) on Saturday, 18th June 2011
The Irish Republic appears before the end of WWII to have only really had Security Forces, not really anything that could really do much overseas. They now have corvettes, but I suppose that they would anyway have made little difference to holding back the Axis and probably rather more useful to the Allies in securing their own territory and being there to prevent Germany from a possible invasion of Ireland which would have provided bases for U Boats and to launch attacks against the UK.
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Message 16
Posted by Michael Alexander Kearsley (U1675895) on Saturday, 18th June 2011
The most practical way for the Irish Republic to help the Allies would have been to allow US forces to establish military bases and allow port facilities to the Allies. But probably that would have made little strategic difference and have been denounced as an occupation.
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Message 17
Posted by CASSEROLEON (U11049737) on Saturday, 18th June 2011
re US military bases in Ireland-
When Harold Nicholson went on an official mission to Dublin in 1942, De Valera (according to HN's diary) said that he regretted the presence of US forces- by then in Northern Ireland- because he felt that they would not understand "our people" as well as "The Tommies".
He also complained that Churchill was not prepared to supply arms to the Irish Republic in order that they might be capable of defending their neutrality. HN said that it was just a question of weapons being in short supply. DV replied that he thought that there was more to it than that, and HN noted in his diary that he thought that DV was probably right.
As Catigern has implied, had Ireland abandonned its position of neutrality, and thus made itself a hostile country as far as Germany was concerned, surely its defence would have had to depend upon Eire being armed by GB. Even had the USA been prepared to make the weapons they would still have had to be paid for: and economic realities dictated the fact that this would have only been possible for the GB economy and its National Debt.
Moreover, the British military knew a great deal about the difficulties involved in defending and policing the Irish coast from centuries of conflict. It would be interesting to see how the ratio of circumference to surface area in Eire compared with mainland Britain, where effective coastal defence systems had been built up since the days of King Alfred.
There was some initial debate as war loomed over the deal negotiated by Macdonald Junior that handed to Eire the southern naval basis that Britain had retained (like Gibraltar) c 1938.
But in many ways a neutral Irish Republic probably suited GB quite well - especially as Irishmen in their capacity as private citizens enlisted in the fight against Nazism, much as people from many lands joined in the Spanish Civil War, while their States remained theoretically neutral.
Cass -
Message 18
Posted by Michael Alexander Kearsley (U1675895) on Sunday, 19th June 2011
The UK was heavily reliant during the war on warships loaned by the US, then of course there were Free Polish, Free French, Free Belgian forces etc.... who had lost a lot of equipment during the war. There will have been problems with training as well, after all there were Polish, French and Belgian naval and air force personnel with experience of manning battleships or fighter aircraft and the numbers of such among the Irish will have been relatively few as the Irish Free State/Irish Republic just hadn't had such equipment. The French Fleet had been sunk to prevent it falling into German hands.
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Message 19
Posted by CASSEROLEON (U11049737) on Sunday, 19th June 2011
MAK
Yes. And the loans usually had to be serviced. And for several centuries it had been an English/British custom to finance the wars of those allies notably perhaps from the help given to Frederick the Great so that he might fight the war on land while Britain got on with the war at sea.
Cass -
Message 20
Posted by rhmnney (U14528380) on Monday, 20th June 2011
During WW2 Britain guaranteed Ireland's neutrality, Ireland was not able to enforce it.
Some years ago I was told by a member of an American Flying Club that an Irish member claimed that he learned to fly a plane after WW2 as during the war he used to taxi German planes on the beach of western Ireland in the evenings during WW2. He did not mention what type of aircraft, just guessing perhaps they may have been Piper Club civilian kind of aircraft, to avoid any suspicion of armed forces aircraft operating in Ireland.
I saw a documentary on American TV where a British Mosquito pilot landing and picking up spies in occupied Europe during WW2, claimed that he did not know wether they were Allied spies or double agents, as he was just obeying orders. He went on to say often British spies in Europe would not use the required safeguards to prevent enemy agents form reading their reports or 'outing' them. Of course I've only learned of British operations during WW2 and not German.
Another program was of a British agent in occupied Europe dropped to assist the Partisans and help plan operations. He said in the area he was to operate it was a complete flop, as the locals would not cooperate as if they did too many men and boys would be shot in retaliation by the Germans. He ended up begging for warm clothes for Italian soldiers who had been stripped of their uniforms by Partisans for their operations, and were walking about in their underclothes during the winter.
These programs were aired on the PBS not commercial TV, which are looking for viewership at all costs, so fairly authentic.. I have often wondered if shows such as this were or are aired in Britain. -
Message 21
Posted by ShaneONeal (U14303502) on Monday, 20th June 2011
"During the Second World War no actual engagements with foreign air forces were recorded but the Air Corps’ fighter fleet of Hurricanes and Gladiators did shoot many dozens of barrage balloons that had broken free from their moorings in various parts of the UK and drifted into Irish airspace...In the late ’40s the Hurricanes were replaced by the famous Spitfire, in its de-navalised Seafire model, and were at once very popular with the crews."
Ignorance, your name is Catigern
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Message 22
Posted by MB (U177470) on Saturday, 25th June 2011
As the joke went in the Free State during 'The Emergency,' "But who are we neutral against?"
Dev and co held out to the end under quite strong US pressure to come in on the Allied side if only in the final few weeks, or days, of the war, as Peron and his Pro-Nazi mates in Argentina did. In spite of refusing to joing the Allies, Ireland still got Marshall Aid.
But as shown on the 'Coast' prog last week, the Irish govt placed navigation markers along its west coast to assist US aircraft, and also did nothing to stop its nationals joinng the British Army and allowed the RAF Sunderlands to fly over Co Sligo from Lough Erne on their Atlantic patrols.
The condolences on the death of Hitler has been argued over. It was strictly in accordance with diplomatic nicities.
The unanswerable is what would Dev and co have done in the face of a Nazi invasion? Plenty would have resisted, but how many would have collaborated?Ìý
The Coast programme also mentioned that sightings of U-Boats were passed to Dublin and then were passed to British naval intelligence.
Britain had an extensive system of radio monitoring for any enemy agents operating in the UK. They had considered using one site in Ireland but assisted the Irish in setting up their own radio monitoring network and supplied equipment.
There seems to have been cooperation like this of various types, probably the Irish feared the links between the IRA and the Nazis.
Also the British controlled supplies to Ireland, particularly fuel.
MB
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