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Arnhem is this correct

• Message 1.Β 

  Posted by stalti (U14278018) on Saturday, 28th May 2011

  Walther Harzer temporary commander of the 9 S.S. Panzer Division 'Hohenstauffen'
  
  It is with personal pride that I regard this German victory, because it was achieved not by regular units, but by railway workers, Arbeitsdienst and Luftwaffe personnel as well, who had never been trained for infantry work and were actually unsuitable for house-to-house fighting."
  
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• Message 2

  , in reply to message 1.

  Posted by Bish (U14883863) on Sunday, 29th May 2011

  To a degree yes. By this stage many SS members were not the hard line Nazis with blonde hair and blue eyes but were drafted into the ranks. There were seaman without ships, Air Force ground crew with aircraft and lots of others who only had basic infantry training before being sent into the fray.

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• Message 3

  , in reply to message 2.

  Posted by stalti (U14278018) on Sunday, 29th May 2011

  but the 2 divisions concerned had had been involved in fearsome fighting on the eastern front and were in the area to refit
  
  surely they cant be defined as "railway workers"

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• Message 4

  , in reply to message 3.

  Posted by Bish (U14883863) on Saturday, 4th June 2011

  I agree, to call them railway workers is going a bit to far. And your right in that those troops who had been drafted into the SS from the Navy and Air Force, while they hadn't had much Infantry training, had by the time of Arnheim, had experiance as front line troops in France. But i wouldn't say its not possable that people from civilian jobs had been drafted in.
  
  But, i think his point is still valid. These troops hadn't been trained in Infantry tactis, and the fighting in Normandy was largely in the open, very different from fighting in towns. He does seem to be implying that this guys were totally inexperianced in Infantry warfare, which of course is not true, to make the German victory seem more impressive than it was. But i think he is also tryiong to disel the myth that all the SS were blonde haired blue eye nazi fanatics with years of combat experiance. These two Divisions had only been formed in late 43, so were relativly new any way.
  
  One more point.While 2 SS Pz Div were sent to arnheim, the 9th and 10th, only the 9th fought there. The 10th had been sent to germany a few days before to refit. They did leave behind there tanks and a complete Recom battalion. But thgere were other units at Arnheim as well as one understrength SS Pz Div.

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• Message 5

  , in reply to message 1.

  Posted by FulwellLib (U14560427) on Saturday, 4th June 2011

  Hi
  An exellent book on the German side of the Market Garden operation is 'It Never Snows in September' by Robert Kershaw. It shows that the German command had to improvise combat groups from all kinds of 'odds & sods' in a way that the German army seemed very good at. Many of the SS formations later in the war filled their ranks with ethnic Germans from across Europe as well as the best conscripts.

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• Message 6

  , in reply to message 4.

  Posted by stalti (U14278018) on Saturday, 4th June 2011

  but we had been led to believe the fighting in arnhem had been sarried out by the remnants of 9 and 10 ss panzer divisions
  
  cornelius ryan suggests these were russian front veterans - the 2 divisions fought there - not europe - they were all suprised about the fact that ceasefires were observed - almost a gentlemans war
  
  i read this wonderful website where the personal memories of the germans suggest that it was in fact low level troops that took on an elite airborne division
  
  
  
  read this - superb
  
  st
  
  
  
  
  
  

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• Message 7

  , in reply to message 6.

  Posted by Bish (U14883863) on Sunday, 5th June 2011

  Have to agree on that book, it is an excellent account on the battle.
  
  I am afraid if you take your history from Hollywood, you will be way off from the truth. The best any of these war movies can claim is that they are 'based'on a real event. If you notice in the movie, it simple shows von Rundstedt and Model agreeing to moce 2 SS Pz Div's, in other words, the 2nd SS Pz Corps, to the Arnhem area. They fail to menton that one of the Div's was then moved onto Germany and as has been stated, many other German unit took part in the battle, not just at Arnhem but all along the corridor.
  
  These 2 unit had first been sent to the Eastern front in 1943. But they were moved to the West after the Allied landings, from memory i think both these Divisions survived Falaise.
  
  As for not believeing everything in the movie. One great example is the comment made by Bittrich when he sees the allied transports coming over. I believe his words were along the lines of 'if only once i could command such a force'. That from the commander of an SS Pz Corp, i don't think so somehow.

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