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Nazi mistake

• Message 1. 

  Posted by Lindau (U709807) on Tuesday, 16th August 2005

  This is my first post, so hi everyone. There is a theory that when the Wehrmacht invaded Russia, and occupied the Ukraine, had they given some form of indepence or protectorate status to the Ukraine, they could have raised at least 15, maybe 20 divisions. As they repressed the Ukrainians this didn't happen. I think they didn't do this because Hitler saw the slavs as "Unter-menchen" and couldn't bear the thought of them being anywhere near equal with Germans. What do you think would have happened if the Ukrainians had been treated well, and raised divisions for the war on Russia. Would it have made a difference, how good would they be, etc.

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  Posted by DL (U1683040) on Tuesday, 16th August 2005

  Hi Lindau, and welcome to the boards!
  
  I would have to say that your thread regarding the treatment of occupied people by the Germans is probably spot on. I've always thought that the Germans made a huge mistake in their treatment of the Ukrainians, Russians and Poles. Had they not had their ridiculous "Racial theories", and considered these people as untermensch, then the outcome of the war in the East would have been very different. It is obvious that had the Germans been more benevolent towards these people, who had actually welcomed them when they invaded, they would have had very little in the way of partisan activity, and vast pool of manpower to fill the ranks of the Wehrmacht. There is no doubt that had the Germans turned the war in Russia into a "War against Communism" rather than a war of annihilation, they would have had no problem at all recruiting millions of Ukrainians, Belarussians and even Russians, since Stalin was hardly a benevolent ruler!
  
  Given that the Germans had captured millions of Russian POWs, they would have been able to recruit a lot of them also, by saying they were liberating Russia from communism, and the fighting ability of the Russians cannot be questioned, so they would have made excellent troops. The huge defeats suffered by the Red Army at the start of Barbarossa was mainly due to Stalin's actions-both in interfering with the army command at the time, and the fact that his purges in the 30s had effectively killed off the best of the Red Army's officer corps, but the actual soldiers were excellent. If the Germans had done this, IMO the outcome would have been a defeat for Stalin in early 1942, followed by an attack south into India and the Middle East, thus securing the natural resources this massive army would have required.
  
  Britain would have to make peace with Hitler or face invasion. In my opinion, the Germans missed a marvellous opportunity through their own stupid racial superiority theories. But, since this theory was a cornerstone of National Socialism, would the Nazis have come to power without their theory of the "Aryan Superman"? And even if they had done, would the war have started? Who knows.
  Had they treated the civilian population humanely in their conquered territory, rather than slaves, I believe they would have won the war (at least against Russia and England anyway!).
  
  Cheers
  DL

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  Posted by Jozef (U1330965) on Tuesday, 16th August 2005

  Hi Lindau and AA,
  
  I have a book written in Polish by General Wladyslaw Anders (someone who knew Russia and Russian problems very well) which analyses the reasons for Hitler’s defeat in Russia. And indeed the General’s main thesis is that Hitler’s most colossal blunder was his idiotic and obscenely supremacist policy towards Ukrainians. Anders was sure that many Ukrainians would have willingly fought for Hitler against Stalin.
  
  Of course, despite this blunder their were Russians and Ukrainians recruited into the SS. Some of the worst atrocities committed on Polish civilians in the Warsaw Rising were carried out by an SS Brigade called RONA (the Russian National Liberation Army) comprising Russians, Ukrainians and Byelorussians and commanded by SS Brigadier Mieczyslaw or Bronislaw Kaminski (obviously of Polish descent).
  
  However, to think that Hitler could have ever had the support of a Polish or Russian majority is to misunderstand at least 200 years of that region's history. On the other hand, massive Ukrainian support was very feasible. If Hitler had indeed been even half a genius and not a nutcase, this could have well saved his bacon in Russia.
  
  Cheers, Jozef
  

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  Posted by Lindau (U709807) on Tuesday, 16th August 2005

  I agree. The Russian recruits were vicious fighters. I recall one incident i read of. The gerneral of a Russian division in the Wehrmacht was so keen to kill communists, he sent his understrength division against an Oder bridgehead in 1945 around Kustrin. The whole division was practically wiped out in a vicious fight. So this goes some way to prove that the recruited Russians were keen to fight and fanactically against communism.

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  Posted by arnaldalmaric (U1756653) on Tuesday, 16th August 2005

  Lindau,
  
  Apologies as I've responded to a post of yours in the British Empire thread a little too harshly I feel, please read it all the way through, as I do wish to welcome you. Feel free to post as I've made an ass of myself on the boards more times than I care to remember (this doesn't mean that anyone can remind me of the exact number of times I've messed it up). I'll add some proper thoughts tommorrow, mainly based on the number of Hiwis.
  
  Cheers AA.
  
  

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  Posted by Rurfus (U1800117) on Tuesday, 16th August 2005

  The Germans through drain of manpower on the front and increasing partisan activity led to a gradual process of employment of Russian prisoners in their forces. These weren't frontline troops at first. They were used in supply, construction and other non-combatants tasks. As the war progressed they were been used for security roles and then frontline forces, the Cossack units for instance.
  
  People from Latvia were also being recruited into the Luftwaffe in late 1943. They formed roughly 3 night bomber squadrons while other pilots were dispersed elsewhere. The actual manpower numbers were small.

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  Posted by DL (U1683040) on Wednesday, 17th August 2005

  Hi All,
  
  Jozef, sounds like a very good read, I wonder if it is published in English? I have to agree totally that the Ukrainians would have probably joined willingly with the Germans. They welcomed them as liberators when the Germans first invaded, and there is a lot of newsreel footage showing the Germans being given flowers by the civilian population, and a traditional welcome of bread and salt (I may be incorrect on that point?)
  Would the Russian people have also joined had they been treated humanely? I think that many would have done so, since not all Russians were fanatical communists. However, the welcoming population changed very quickly once they realised that they had lost one cruel dictator, and been taken over by a much worse one! Instead of a nation allied to Germany against Russia, they created a hostile occupied land. It still surprises me that even with the barbaric treatment of the Ukrainians, so many still joined Waffen SS units, and even worked as concentration camp guards. It is strange that also in Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia, the local population assisted the Einsatzgruppen in the murder of the Jews, often without any encouragement from the Germans.
  
  With regards to Poland, I would doubt that better treatment of the population would have any effect whatsoever, since the Germans had attacked Poland with the intent to conquer, and they would always have been resented and hated for this act, so I must agree, co-operation between the Germans and the Poles was never likely, and other than the renegades who did fight for Germany, large scale support was not going to happen.
  
  All the best,
  DL

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  Posted by Jozef (U1330965) on Wednesday, 17th August 2005

  Hi DL,
  
  All Russians feared Stalin (you’d be an idiot not to), but you’re right, not all were communists. In fact I’m pretty sure quite a few hated Stalin and communism in general. However, even if that was the case, even those Russians still had their national pride. The Soviet Union was merely a continuation of the expansive Russian Empire founded by Peter the Great. The prospect of a German super state on the western border was anathema to tsarists, communists, dissidents and Russian patriots of almost all colour and hue alike. The notions of pan-Slavism and Mother Russia predate the Communist Revolution.
  
  As to the Poles, I see you agree, but I’ll add a few points anyway. After the 18th century Partitions being Polish meant actively resisting deliberate government policies to impose Russian language and culture in the east and Bismarck’s Kulturkampf (imposition of German, language, culture and ‘values’) in the west. Polish citizens who volunteered to fight for Hitler, did so a German nationalists. It is a myth that most Poles were fiercely anti-communist: before the war there were rightwing Poles and leftwing Poles. Pilsudski’s colonels, usually fell into the latter category. The only thing all Poles objected to was Russian (be it Soviet) imperialism, as indeed German Nazi imperialism. What happened in 1939 was simply a repetition of the 18th century Partitions.
  
  For Estonian and Latvian nationalists the only real enemy was Russia. In the minds of many Lithuanian and Ukrainian nationalists the enemies were both Russia and Poland. Ukrainian nationalism only really started to develop in the 19th century and it was deliberately helped along by the third power that partitioned the Polish Commonwealth: Austria. The objective was to counter-balance Polish national aspirations in that part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire. Therefore it was natural for Ukrainian nationalists to look on a German speaking nation with considerable sympathy, especially after the Soviet Union’s genocidal ‘collectivisation’ policies of the early 1930s had left so many millions of their compatriots dead.
  
  But we must never generalise. The very first people to die in an Auschwitz gas chamber were Ukrainian POWs who had refused to serve in the camp as SS warders.
  
  Cheers, Jozef
  
  PS: Yes, you’re right, greeting visitors with bread and salt is a Ukrainian tradition, and it happens to be a Polish one as well.
  
  

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  Posted by arnaldalmaric (U1756653) on Wednesday, 17th August 2005

  Lindau, as promised I'll give my ramblings.
  
  In early Autumn 1942 Groscurth (Chief of Staff XI Corps) wrote that the Germans were being strengthened by Russian POWs. The German Sixth Army (possibly the only one in which numbers can be accurately estimated) had over 50,000 "Russians" attached to its front line division strength. This represented just over 25% of the total strength. 71st and 76th Infantry Divisions had over 8,000 (each!) attached in front line duties in November 1942.
  
  So a reasonable guess would be maybe 75,000 formerly Soviet troops in 6th Army in all duties.
  
  Hiwi is an abbreviation for Hilfswillge, willing volunteer.
  
  So, I'd submit that although not independent divisions, certainly Russians fighting with the Germans against the Soviets. Not part of Hitlers plan but a circumstance forced upon the local ground commanders.
  
  These extra troops didn't make a difference as it turned out. They were (in the main) front line infantry. So differences in equipment were relatively easy to solve. The difference in language I'll admit could be trickier.
  
  Rather than the ad hoc arrangement that actually arose it would have been better to put these men into Division(s) on there own. However, this would not have stood with Hitler.
  
  Further there is the question of equipping, supplying and training these divisions to operate in the Wehrmacht. The Roumanian / Austrian / Hungarian / Italian Divisions in Russia did not perform well compared with the German Divisions. Mainly due to reasons of morale, equipment, supply and training. I'd accept that a pure Ukranian Division would have high morale, I'd counter that with a Soviet Division facing them would also have high morale (possibly inspired by different methods, but still highly motivated).
  
  However the training on the advanced equipment (e.g. Tanks), their low position in the supply chain, being the last to get ammo and food, artillery and air support would have blunted the high morale and bravery they undoubtedly had (would have had?).
  
  Cheers, hope this helps AA.

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• Message 10

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  Posted by tony_19680 (U5835599) on Thursday, 24th January 2008

  Russian who fought for the Germans in Russia would have fought fanatically at the end of the war because they understood what fate was awaiting them.
  If the Germans were the hated invader, then the Russians fighting for the Germans were murderous Traitors. They could have expected no mercy and a particularly nasty death.
  It's an interesting thread and a nice idea that the Germans could have treated invasion of Ukraine and others as a battle of liberation. A number of comments have been made that if only Hitler hadn't been so tied to his Racial Supremacy Theories he could have won the war. My contention is that if was NOT driven by his racial supremacy principals there wouldn't have been a war in the first place.
  

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  Posted by Volgadon (U10843893) on Friday, 25th January 2008

  The Nazis did cut corners with their racial policies when it suited them, like they did with the Cossacks, who convinced the Germans that they weren't really Russian, but descendants of the Goths. They wanted to create an independent, or at least autonomous, Cossack land, which contained the south of Russia and bits of the Ukraine. Many Cossack POWs joined, because they hated the Godless Bolsheviks who humiliated them in the Civil War, crushed the Orthodox Church and brutally 'decossacked' them.

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  Posted by schuhbox4 (U10370736) on Friday, 25th January 2008

  Welcome to the boards!
  I completely understand what you are saying and theoretically I agree with you. The Ukrainians could have been much better friends than enemies. However, I think that ignores the reality of the situation. Hitler's entire purpose for invading the area was to exploit its resources. In the long run, controlling the wheat/grains of the Ukraine was nearly as important as accessing the oil in the Caucasus. Assuming Hitler would not give up on his demands, which I think is a safe assumption, how long could the Ukrainians have honored any alliance, or even truce, between themselves and the Germans? I believe they would have found that getting in bed with Hitler would be little better than living under Stalin.
  I guess my point is that whereas I think Hitler killed Jews for the sake of killing Jews, he did not invade the Ukraine for the sake of killing Ukrainians, Slavs or communists. He had actual strategic interests in mind that almost certainly would have alienated the people. I guess your point about his absurd racial beliefs is somewhat valid because those beliefs would allow Hitler to feel it was acceptable to starve one people to feed his own.

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  Posted by Mutatis_Mutandis (U8620894) on Saturday, 26th January 2008

  There were two important reasons for this attitude towards the local population, including the Ukrainians. One is simply that as Hitler was fighting a war for "Lebensraum", he wanted the land for the Germans, and that implied that the current occupants would be driven off, exterminated, or at least enslaved. Making a deal with the Ukrainian nationalists ran counter to Nazi political goals.
  
  But the other reason was the supply situation. On its advance eastwards, the Wehrmacht was entering a region were the transport infrastructure was notoriously poor. There was a spare broad-gauge rail network, which first needed to be made suitable for German trains by adding an extra rail, and few hardened roads. The German military had few trucks and even fewer transport aircraft. The forces were being spread over a huge area. It wasn't possible to supply the advancing armies entirely from the rear, even if the necessary supplies had been readily available in Germany, which they often were not.
  
  So the army had to live, at least in part, as Napoleon's armies had lived -- off the land. Radical food requisitioning, especially of the supposed agricultural surplus of the Ukraine, was planned to feed the millions of German soldiers (and half a million horses). That local people, especially in the cities, would starve was accepted as an inevitable consequence; for some in the German leadership it was a desirable goal. It would free the supply lines for mostly ammunition, fuel, and spare parts. But of course it was likely to result in hostility between the German invaders and the locals, whatever their attitude towards the Soviets.
  
  It didn't work, because local food supplies were never sufficient to feed the German armies, and of course it worsened the supply situation by stimulating partisan activity behind the front line.
  

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  Posted by PaulRyckier (U1753522) on Monday, 18th February 2008

  Re: Message 13.
  
  Mutatis Mutandis,
  
  interesting points of view, I thank you for them.
  
  Warm regards,
  
  Paul.

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• Message 15

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  Posted by Isaac01 (U5250812) on Wednesday, 20th February 2008

  
  The strategic analyses posted here seem to ring true. However, what comes to mind is an old Yiddish saying, "if my grandmother had wheels, she’d be a carriage." Had the Nazis not thought as they did then it is perhaps reasonable to assume that they would not have pursued aggressive war--towards the East or otherwise--in the first place.
  
  WWII is more defined by its politics than its military history. You can't take the Nazi out of WWII and still have WWII, if you take my meaning.
  

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