Wars and ConflictsΒ permalink
Oil
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Message 1.Β
Posted by Grumpyfred (U2228930) on Sunday, 20th March 2011
When Hitler ordered his troops eastward, his two main aims were land and oil. Meanwhile in North Africa an under strength force was pushing the 8th Army back. Unbeknown to both sides, beneath the sands of Lybia was enough oil to supply all of Germanies fuel supplies forever. Sadly they were not descovered until 1959. But suppose they had been found early in 1940. Would Hitler have thrown more troops into North Africa, possibly invading Malta first. Would he indeed postponed the Russian invasion and gone for North Africa and the oil, defended by a very under strength British Force?
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Message 2
Posted by Allan D (U1791739) on Sunday, 20th March 2011
Possibly, but there was also a strong ideological motive to the invasion of the Soviet Union that can be traced back to "Mein Kampf" in his desire to destroy Communism as well as a push for "lebensraum" for which North Africa was clearly unsuitable.
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Message 3
Posted by giraffe47 (U4048491) on Sunday, 20th March 2011
I'd agree.
I think he would still have 'gone for' Russia, for the same reasons, and with a greater chance of success if he had a guaranteed oil supply.
The push for the Baku oil was a major factor in his defeat, and he would have had much more tactical and strategic flexibility without the pressing need to capture that oil. This led to the long flank at Stalingrad, the shoulders of which were lightly held by 'foreign' troops, etc, and almost led to the entire Baku force being cut off, same as the Stalingrad force. -
Message 4
Posted by CASSEROLEON (U11049737) on Monday, 21st March 2011
Grumpyfred
Operation Barbarossa was I believe three-pronged and the oil of the Caucasus was only one part. Basically Hitler was really trying to do what both the USA and Russia had done in the second half of the nineteenth century- viz- spread out over a huge land empire. Land with all of its attributes had suddenly become a finite source and Malthusianism dictated the struggle for "living space"..
From reports from Libya not much of the country is actually useful as living space.. Since the desertification of the Sahara populations in North Africa have been concentrated in the coastal cities with trade rather than the production of commodities (until oil) providing for life at more than subsistence level.
But just a thought- given the very stable geology of much of Africa and the lack of vitality and endangered species etc perhaps when the oil runs out such spaces might be useful places to site nuclear generators. (Australian Outback- and atomic research)
Cass -
Message 5
Posted by TimTrack (U1730472) on Monday, 21st March 2011
I agree with Allan D.
The ideologocal reason for attacking the Soviet Union could almost be called the raison d'etre for Nazism in the first place.
One of the problems with this kind of alternative scenario is that you do not take in to account the fact that, had these oild reserves been known about, then the allied defence of them would have been different in the first place.
So, the number of troops deployed there would have been higher, and you can bet your bottom dollar that every existing well head would have been destroyed. Oil facilities can.t be repaired or installed with any ease under enemy fire, as it would have had to have been in WW2. -
Message 6
Posted by suvorovetz (U12273591) on Monday, 21st March 2011
Would he indeed postponed the Russian invasion and gone for North Africa and the oil, defended by a very under strength British Force?Β
Being at war, Hitler needed oil already in production, not in untapped reserves. Also, in December 1940, he issued Directive 21 ordering Wehrmacht to begin preparations for Barbarossa immediately after failed negotiations with Molotov about Finland and Bosfor - strikes two and three, using baseball language. Strike one had been Stalin's invasion of Bessarabia and Bukovina, which had not been agreed on in the secret protocol to the Ribbentrop-Molotov Pact. All three threatened Hitler's strategic supply routes maintaining his war machine, of course. -
Message 7
Posted by Sambista (U4068266) on Monday, 21st March 2011
How about earlier? If Libya had been producing oil in any large quantity, might the Italians have concentrated on its defence, and not crossed into Egypt, thus over-extending their supply lines and leading to catastrophic losses which the Germans had to send troops to compensate for (as also in Greece).
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Message 8
Posted by Grumpyfred (U2228930) on Monday, 21st March 2011
Perhaps then the British, (Seeing an oil supply closer to home) would have put more troops into North Africa and captured the oil fields and Churchill would have refused to weaken that force to help the Greeks. As it was, even with forces the British Empire had in N/A before being stripped of both men and equipment for Greece, could have thrown the Axis troops (Then all Italian) out of N/A thus maling it impossible for the Africa Corps to send in troops.
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Message 9
Posted by Sambista (U4068266) on Monday, 21st March 2011
North Africa wouldn't have been much use to Britain as an oil source - they'd have to fight the convoys through against Axis air & naval attack - Ohio in reverse, or take them out via Suez. The trip from the middle east oil fields was shorter than that, but already far too long. No, they were better off continuing to draw Britain's oil supplies from the Americas.
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Message 10
Posted by GrandFalconRailroad (U14802912) on Tuesday, 22nd March 2011
Could Hitler's Sixth Army under Paulus and Fourth Army under Hoth (as Army Group South) have hugged the extreme Southern Coast do you think, using the left flank as the guard, advanced in a single route of march towards the Caucasus? I mean instead of 3 AG's advancing use one toward the strategic targets of Baku and Caucasus oil then the troops of the other two as flank guards?
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Message 11
Posted by CASSEROLEON (U11049737) on Tuesday, 22nd March 2011
GrandFalconRailroad
This may be totally wide of the mark- but on the other hand the North coast of the Black Sea serves as a kind of Cote d'Azure.. Your post immediately put me in mind of the naive decision many years ago to take the scenic route that hugs that most beautiful coast from our habitual Easter camp site about 20 kilometres from Toulon to my wife's aunt in Nice..
That kind of coast-hugging definitely ruled out any kind of Blitzkrieg.. and it was probably not relevant for Operation Barbarossa but Britain's military power was still in those vast war-machines of the British Navy, the modern descendants of which are firing hundreds of missiles at targets in Libya's coastal strip.
Cass -
Message 12
Posted by stalti (U14278018) on Saturday, 2nd April 2011
it doesnt matter where or when oil was found
hitlers reason for existence was to smash russia- lebensraum
even the invasion of france was only a preliminary (as said in mein kamf) distraction
he was headed to the east whatever happened
hey - "oil who cares" - how different is that to nowadays lol
st
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