Wars and Conflicts permalink
On this day, 1994
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Message 1.
Posted by U3280211 (U3280211) on Friday, 25th February 2011
On this day, 25th February, 1994, the right wing American Zionist fanatic, Baruch Goldstein, entered a mosque in the Palestinian West Bank and shot dead 29 Palestinians at prayer. He wounded another 125.
He was over-powered while trying to change magazines and killed by the survivors.
The Jewish settlers at Kiryat Arba erected a little shrine in his memory which said, inter alia:
"Goldstein, a martyr, died clean of hands and pure of heart"
10,000 Zionists, many from the USA Zionist lobby, have visited his grave to celebrate his life and actions.
see
and
preface, page xix of Noam Chomsky (1999), "The Fateful Triangle: The united States and the Palestinians". Pluto Press.
I mention this grim anniversary as some of our fellow posters, notably Alan D and suv, seem to be in denial about the extremism lurking within the American Zionist lobby.
Alan D. even denies that such an entity exists.
Not only does it exist, but it is in rude and hideous 'health'
See:
Louis Theroux's "The Ultra Zionists"
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Message 2
Posted by suvorovetz (U12273591) on Friday, 25th February 2011
I mention this grim anniversary as some of our fellow posters, notably Alan D and suv, seem to be in denial about the extremism lurking within the American Zionist lobby.
Alan D. even denies that such an entity exists.
Of course, there's not enough time in a day to try setting the record straight when dealing with our fellow Jew baiter, but all of this stale noise has been already addressed many times over:
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Message 3
Posted by U3280211 (U3280211) on Saturday, 26th February 2011
I kick the skirting board and hey presto, right on cue, out pops a particularly nasty creepy crawly, our visiting Ultra Zionist and apologist for Israel's ghastly excesses.
suv, the author of post 2, has attacked the 鶹Լ, our moderators, our former host Andrew, and 鶹Լ journalists covering the middle east. He describes himself as as "Blinkered Zionist".
If you check the record you will see that all my sources of evidence come from Jewish academics in British, American and Israeli universities who have the supreme courage to publish truths which are extremely uncomfortable to Zionist bigots like suv.
Now back to yesterday's topic.
After Baruch Goldstein's killing spree, the local Jewish settlers went into seven days of ritual mourning for their dead fanatic-killer 'hero'.
They closed all the local roads and locked-down the Palestinians who were thus not allowed even to send their sick children to hospital. Two Palestinian infants died for want of treatment in the first days of the curfew.
The round the clock curfew continued for a further month keeping a million Palestinians locked in their homes. The IDF shot and killed a further 76 Palestinian youths in that period. Youths who had dared to venture out.
For evidence see: (in addition to the sources in the OP)
1) "Washington Report on Middle East Affairs" June 1994, article by Rachelle Marshall.
(Rachelle is a journalist and member of the Jewish Peace Union)
2) "Bad News from Israel" (2004) by the Glasgow University Media Group. (Greg Philo and Mike Berry et allia) esp. pages 67-90. ISBN 978-0-74537320618. -
Message 4
Posted by suvorovetz (U12273591) on Saturday, 26th February 2011
If you check the record you will see that all my sources of evidence come from Jewish academics in British, American and Israeli universities who have the supreme courage to publish truths which are extremely uncomfortable to Zionist bigots like suv.
Supreme courage. Indeed. Here's a vivid illustration of the scope of the threat:
...oops. The scary guys in weird garbs on the photos below are not exactly what one could pass as Zionists. -
Message 5
This posting has been hidden during moderation because it broke the in some way.
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Message 6
Posted by U3280211 (U3280211) on Sunday, 27th February 2011
At Baruch Goldstein's funeral, Rabbi Yaacov Perrin claimed that even one million Arabs are "not worth a Jewish fingernail".
See:
1) Kraft, Scott (1994-02-28). "Extremists Pay Tribute to Killer of 48 at Funeral". Los Angeles Times p. A1.
2) Brownfeld, Allan C. (March 1999). "Growing Intolerance Threatens the Humane Jewish Tradition" Washington Report on Middle East Affairs 84–89.
3) Emran Qureshi, Michael Anthony Sells (2003). The new crusades: constructing the Muslim enemy. Columbia Press p. 129.
Do you agree or disagree with the views of Rabbi Perrin, above.? -
Message 7
Posted by Allan D (U1791739) on Sunday, 27th February 2011
In your obsession with Jewish atrocities you omit Arab terrorist atrocities such as the 1979 Nahariya attack following the signing of the Camp David peace accords in which a four-year old girl, Einat Haran, had her skull smashed in with a rifle butt and the delibearate murder of the disabled American Jew, Leon Klinghoffer, during the 1985 hijacking of the Achille Lauro:
Both these attacks were motivated by anti-semitism not just hatred of Israel and the perpetrators are regarded as 'heroes'. by the Arab world. The child-murderer, Samir Kuntar, received a hero's welcome in Lebanon after his release from an Israeli jail in 2008. -
Message 8
Posted by giraffe47 (U4048491) on Sunday, 27th February 2011
Can we not just agree that virulent Anti-Whateverism is a feature of almost all human political and religious groupings?
Arab, Jew, Christian, etc - we all have our anybody-but-us haters, who rejoice in the murder of their opponents, and are often willing to die themselves to bring that about.
What is the point of listing the horrors perpetrated by the 'others', while ignoring / justifying the horrors perpetrated by our own side? That is just a recipe for more horrors.
As an Ulsterman, who has lived through 40 years of this, I can safely say that clinging to your grievances will only bring you more to grieve about. -
Message 9
Posted by Allan D (U1791739) on Sunday, 27th February 2011
clinging to your grievances will only bring you more to grieve about.
Sadly, this could be the motto (or is it the epitaph?) of the Palestinian cause. -
Message 10
Posted by U3280211 (U3280211) on Monday, 28th February 2011
To Alan
In your obsession with Jewish atrocities you omit Arab terrorist atrocities
Not so. I have said on this board that the Arab nations' human rights record is appalling. I'm happy to use Amnesty International as my guide here. If AI says that a country is using torture or collective punishment they are probably right.
Saudi Arabia is as bad as any in this regard. I am not blindly pro-Arab nor am I remotely anti-Jewish (as suv claims).
The sources underpinning my posts are nearly always Jewish, often Israeli, academics.
I mention the people of Palestine quite often because many users of this board are willfully ignorant of how Israel (a nation often banging-on about the evils of "terrorism") came to create itself by the use of terrorism and ethnic cleansing.
This fact is only now beginning to trickledown into public opinion, through programmes like the "The Promise" which has been well-reviewed by most media.
Academic historians have known the truth about Israel for 60 years but it was for long very unfashionable to criticise Jews after their terrible suffering in the Holocaust.
But the Holocaust was a hideous perversion organised by Germans, not Palestinians. Why should they pay the price?
Nor is there any equivalence between the pathetic attacks on Israel by a few home-made rockets launched from Gaza and the use of F16's dropping 1,000 lb laser-guided bombs on civilian targets as retaliation.
Reasonable people across the world see this dispropotionate response as shameful sadism. 100 Palestinian eyes for one Jewish eye, seems to be the 'going rate'
Even Holocaust survivors joined the aid convoy to Gaza last year.
Let me finish by asking you Alan, the question suv cannot (or dare not, publicly) answer:
Do you unequivocally condemn Baruch Goldstein's murder of 29 Palestinians in the Mosque, on 25th Feb, 1994? -
Message 11
Posted by Allan D (U1791739) on Monday, 28th February 2011
Do you unequivocally condemn Baruch Goldstein's murder of 29 Palestinians in the Mosque, on 25th Feb, 1994?
All murder is to be condemned by anyone on anyone else and it is only when the Palestinians condemn the murderers in their own ranks and separate themselves from organisations such as Hamas whose constitution calls for
"the killing of the Jew wherever he may be found"
that they will find their cause treated more sympathetically by others.
But the Holocaust was a hideous perversion organised by Germans, not Palestinians
However the Palestinians, or their leaders, were not quite that innocent:
Wolfgang G. Schwanitz notes that in his memoirs Husayni recalled that Heinrich Himmler, in the summer of 1943, while confiding some German war secrets, inveighed against Jewish "war guilt", and, speaking of Germany’s persecution of the Jews said that "up to now we have exterminated (in Arabic, abadna) around three million of them". In his memoirs, Husayni wrote he was astonished to hear this. Schwanitz doubts the sincerity of his surprise since, he argues, Husayni had publicly declared that Muslims should follow the example Germans set for a "definitive solution to the Jewish problem".
In September 1943, intense negotiations to rescue 500 Jewish children from the town of Arbe in Croatia collapsed due to the objection of al-Husayni who blocked the children's departure to Turkey because they would end up in Palestine.
Recent Nazi documents uncovered in the German Ministry of Foreign Affairs and the Military Archive Service in Freiburg by two researchers, Klaus Michael Mallmann and Martin Cüppers indicated that in the event of the British being defeated in Egypt by Generalfeldmarschall Erwin Rommel's Afrika Korps the Nazis had planned to deploy a special unit called Einsatzkommando Ägypten to exterminate Palestinian Jews and that they wanted Arab support to prevent the emergence of a Jewish state. In their book the researchers concluded that, "the most important collaborator with the Nazis and an absolute Arab anti-Semite was Haj Amin al-Husseini, the mufti of Jerusalem
Husseini was the de facto leader of the Palestinian Arabs and later acted as mentor to the young Yasser Arafat (although Cairo-born), founder of the PLO. -
Message 12
Posted by hotmousemat (U2388917) on Monday, 28th February 2011
...such as Hamas whose constitution calls for
"the killing of the Jew wherever he may be found"
What is it about this topic that makes us all abandon any attempt at objectivity? Actually, it does not say that. It contains something similar, but it is part of a quote about the Day of Judgement.
I will not try to disentangle the contradictions and complexities of the Hamas Charter, e.g.
but just point out that it also says:
"The Islamic Resistance Movement is a humanistic movement. It takes care of human rights and is guided by Islamic tolerance when dealing with the followers of other religions. It does not antagonize anyone of them except if it is antagonized by it or stands in its way to hamper its moves and waste its efforts."
and
"As to those who have not borne arms against you on account of religion, nor turned you out of your dwellings, Allah forbiddeth you not to deal kindly with them, and to behave justly towards them; for Allah loveth those who act justly."
So have I now proved that Hamas are gentle and tolerant? Of course not. Because odd phrases plucked from a long document do not prove anything - either way.
But when we discuss this topic, each side has to paint the other as inhuman monsters, so roots through history and theology to find any material that can be used for this immoral purpose.
I doubt if there is any other subject on these boards where people who think of themselves as serious historians would produce threads as nasty as the ones that are about Palestine/Israel. -
Message 13
Posted by suvorovetz (U12273591) on Monday, 28th February 2011
I doubt if there is any other subject on these boards where people who think of themselves as serious historians would produce threads as nasty as the ones that are about Palestine/Israel.
Pot has just called a kettle black again. I've looked at these boards for months by now, and all Jew baiting - excuse me - the ones that are about Palestine/Israel threads are produced by a handful of "progressives"; the originator of this very thread being the author of about 95% of them. -
Message 14
Posted by hotmousemat (U2388917) on Monday, 28th February 2011
suvorovetz
Pot has just called a kettle black again. I've looked at these boards for months by now, and all Jew baiting - excuse me - the ones that are about Palestine/Israel threads are produced by a handful of "progressives"; the originator of this very thread being the author of about 95% of them.
My point was that there is something about discussing this subject that brings out the worst from BOTH sides. -
Message 15
Posted by Allan D (U1791739) on Monday, 28th February 2011
Religious hatred of Jews (not only of Israel) is expressed by a hadith or ‘saying’ that concludes Article 7 [of the Hamas Charter]:
“The Day of Judgment will not come about until Muslims fight the Jews (killing the Jews) when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say: O Muslims, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him."
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Message 16
Posted by hotmousemat (U2388917) on Tuesday, 1st March 2011
"Religious hatred of Jews (not only of Israel) is expressed by a hadith or ‘saying’ that concludes Article 7 [of the Hamas Charter]:
“The Day of Judgment will not come about until Muslims fight the Jews (killing the Jews) when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say: O Muslims, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him.""
Yes, so I was right when I said that the phrase:
"the killing of the Jew wherever he may be found"
is not a quote and when I said that something similar was there but as part of a quote about the Day of Judgement.
But before the D of J, we will have had their equivalent of the second coming when God will unite everyone (as Muslims), so it is obviously going to be bad news for any religion who rejects Him. Christians say exactly the same thing will happen when their Messiah returns and makes the world Christian: “Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea, only the remnant will be saved."
And this Hadith echoes similar passages in the Torah about what has and will happen to Jews should Israel offend God. I would therefore suggest that the point of the quote is to remind Jews that although they are (like Muslims) People of the Book that this will not protect them from God's judgement if they behave wickedly, as Hamas believes they are doing towards Palestinians.
If I am wrong about this; if the message is as simple as 'hate and kill Jews', then how else do we explain those other passages I quoted from the Charter that express tolerance? -
Message 17
Posted by Allan D (U1791739) on Tuesday, 1st March 2011
But before the D of J, we will have had their equivalent of the second coming when God will unite everyone
The Day of Judgment will not come about until Muslims fight the Jews
????
Appears to me that Hamas draws a link between the Day of Judgment and the wholesale slaughter of Jews (not just Israeli ones) beforehand. -
Message 18
Posted by hotmousemat (U2388917) on Tuesday, 1st March 2011
"But before the D of J, we will have had their equivalent of the second coming when God will unite everyone"
"The Day of Judgment will not come about until Muslims fight the Jews"
????
Appears to me that Hamas draws a link between the Day of Judgment and the wholesale slaughter of Jews (not just Israeli ones) beforehand
But as I say, before the Day of Judgement, the Mahdi and Jesus will reappear, also (perhaps) the Antichrist, plus lots of other miraculous events. The judgement itself will be prefigured by the resurrection of the dead, so we know the Day is not here now.
And it is emphasised that nobody knows when the Day will be and nobody (even Muhammed) can bring that day forward.
At that time, everyone (including Jews) will become Muslims because God will reveal that this is the true way, so the only remaining Jews will be those who reject God. But not having been a Muslim in past life does not condemn anyone.
"Those who believe (in that which is revealed unto thee, Muhammad), and those who are Jews, and Christians, and Sabaeans - whoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right - surely their reward is with their Lord, and there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve."
But my basic point is at this very moment there are no doubt Muslims similarly extracting verses from Talmudic doctrine to prove that Jews think of non-Jews as subhuman, or quoting phrases from those supporters of Goldstein to show the racist and genocidal nature of Israel. Presumably you would reject this as the crudest sort of propaganda.
Well, I am simply saying that the right way to fight that sort of crude propaganda is to denounce it as such - not to create our own versions. -
Message 19
Posted by suvorovetz (U12273591) on Tuesday, 1st March 2011
But my basic point is at this very moment there are no doubt Muslims similarly extracting verses from Talmudic doctrine to prove that Jews think of non-Jews as subhuman, or quoting phrases from those supporters of Goldstein to show the racist and genocidal nature of Israel.
Israel is a country run by a secular government structured as a typical European parliamentary democracy, for better or worse. Her immediate and overt enemies, Hamas and Hezbollah are Muslim Brotherhood and Iranian mullahs' proxies, overtly religious and overtly genocidal, with standing armies and war time infrastructures. So, the equivalency fallacy, pseudo-balanced reporting and fallacious parroting of Palestinian problem as the root of all world problems are all part and parcel of a suicidal path for the entire Western civilization. And this is precisely why the Marxist community organizers are on the forefront of spreading these fallacies. Their goal always justifies the means. -
Message 20
Posted by U3280211 (U3280211) on Tuesday, 1st March 2011
All murder is to be condemned by anyone on anyone else
Good, we can agree on that. But that is a slightly tangential answer to the specific question I asked, which was:
"do you condemn Baruch Golstein's killing of 29 Arabs in the mosque, on 25-02-1994?"
I am testing you in this detail to see if you are capable of criticising a Jew. suv cannot bring himself to do this. He admits to being biased in favour of Zionism.
I can list many Arabs I would like to see the back of, starting with Gaddafi and the 'royal families' of the Gulf states and Arabia. Yes, there are nasty pieces of work in Hamas and Hezbollah, without doubt, but the radical anti-semitism of those movements is explicable, at least in part, by 100 years of deception, double-dealing and exploitation by, in turn, the British, Israelis and Americans.
To argue that Islam is uniquely bigoted among the Abrahamic faiths is merely a sign that you haven't read the Bible thoroughly. The Torah, the New testament and the Koran give the followers of each faith (Judaism, Christianity and Islam) specific encouragement to see their own beliefs and practices as the best and only valid path to God and eternal life.
Furthermore, as Christopher Hitchens has pointed out, Christians and Muslims plagiarise Judaism's sacred texts in a shameless way. Judaic texts do not criticise Islam, for the simple reason that Islam did not exist when the authors of Genesis were pooling their ideas.
But we can get a pretty good idea what many Zionist Jews think about Muslims:
Rabbi Perrin says that :
" Ten thousand Arabs are not worth one Jewish fingernail"
Rabbi Yosef has called for a genocide of Palestinians:
see
IDF general Rafael Eitan said that
"The only good Arab is a dead Arab"
Now let's put these remarks to the test of racist comparison by substituting the word "Arab" for "Jew" or "Slav", in the above sentences.
With that transposition made, any of those sentences could easily have been uttered by Hitler. Do you agree? -
Message 21
Posted by Allan D (U1791739) on Tuesday, 1st March 2011
Now let's put these remarks to the test of racist comparison by substituting the word "Arab" for "Jew" or "Slav", in the above sentences.
With that transposition made, any of those sentences could easily have been uttered by Hitler. Do you agree?
Absolutely, except there is no necessity for notoinal transposition. The quotes exist in reality:
Sheikh Ibrahim Madhi, "one of the most popular imams" is quoted in saying:
"The greatest enemies of the Islamic nation are the Jews, may Allah fight them… Blessings for whoever assaulted a soldier… Blessings for whoever has raised his sons on the education of Jihad and Martyrdom; blessings for whoever has saved a bullet in order to stick it in a Jew's head"
In a sermon aired on Hamas' Al-Aqsa television, cleric Yunis Al Astal stated,
"Today, Rome is the capital of the Catholics, or the Crusader capital, which has declared its hostility to Islam, and has planted the brothers of apes and pigs in Palestine in order to prevent the reawakening of Islam.
Do you agree? -
Message 22
Posted by U3280211 (U3280211) on Tuesday, 1st March 2011
To Alan D
Err, you are still evading my question. I have twice asked you the following, here it is for the third time:
"Do you condemn Baruch Goldstein's murder of the 29 Palestinians in the mosque in the West Bank, on 25-2-1994"?
I know you don't like Arabs or Palestinians, so finding racist comments by that group is easy for you. The quotes you mention are appalling.
But are you capable of saying that Baruch Goldstein's specific actions go beyond "hate speech" to literal mass murder?
Can you condemn Goldstein's act, explicitly and unequivocally?
If you can, will you do so here? -
Message 23
Posted by suvorovetz (U12273591) on Tuesday, 1st March 2011
Can you condemn Goldstein's act, explicitly and unequivocally?
That's quite a grand standing by an apologist for a mass murderer of the Jews and Serbs, the Nazi General Al Husseini... and - just a fair warning - don't count on me being lazy enough not to dig up your post illustrating the point. -
Message 24
Posted by U3280211 (U3280211) on Thursday, 3rd March 2011
don't count on me being lazy enough not to dig up your post illustrating the point.
Lazy or not, you'll have a job finding anything I have written which denies the Holocaust or praises Hitler's attack on the Serbs.
The truth is against you, I'm afraid.
I was actually the first person on these boards to draw attention to the concentration camp at Jasenovac in which Nazis and Croat Fascists tortured and murdered, 100,000's of Serbs. I have often written here about the horrors of Nazi concentration camps.
You are the self-confessed racist bigot, remember?
Let's see that quote pal...
Now, back to Baruch Goldstein, the subject of this thread.
Alan D has so far declined to condemn his act of mass murder. We can draw our own conclusions, if this remains his final position.
So, suv, our great evader and dissembler, let me put the same simple question to you:
"Can you, suv, condemn Goldstein's act, explicitly and unequivocally?" -
Message 25
Posted by hotmousemat (U2388917) on Thursday, 3rd March 2011
So, the equivalency fallacy, pseudo-balanced reporting and fallacious parroting of Palestinian problem as the root of all world problems are all part and parcel of a suicidal path for the entire Western civilization.
Can you read? -
Message 26
Posted by Allan D (U1791739) on Thursday, 3rd March 2011
I have and do condemn Goldstein's attack.
Do you equally condemn the killing of 786 people (not all of them Jewish) in Palestinian suicide attacks (the bombers not included in the totals) between 1993 and 2008 as shown here?;
I think we should be told. -
Message 27
Posted by suvorovetz (U12273591) on Thursday, 3rd March 2011
That's quite a grand standing by an apologist for a mass murderer of the Jews and Serbs, the Nazi General Al Husseini... and - just a fair warning - don't count on me being lazy enough not to dig up your post illustrating the point.
Lazy or not, you'll have a job finding anything I have written which denies the Holocaust or praises Hitler's attack on the Serbs.
The truth is against you, I'm afraid.
It will not escape from an attentive observer that someone by the name Hitler suddenly appears on the scene in place of the mentioned Al Husseini. And although, as everybody knows, Hitler undoubtedly was implicated in mass murders taking place in Europe during WWII, it does not and should not absolve his willing henchmen. One of whom was the founder of SS Hanzar Division Nazi General Al Husseini, directly implicated in mass murder of the Jews and the Serbs in Bosnia. Here's what the resident Jew baiter said about it not that long ago:
Interesting that you mention Amin al-Husayni who was appointed Grand Mufti by Herbert Samuel, as Samuel was himself influential in Balfour's letter of 'declaration'.
al-Husyani opposed mass Jewish immigration into Palestine as he could foresee that his people would be pushed aside by sheer weight numbers. ... He unwisely turned to Hitler for help in fighting the British.
Note the grace, with which the thought is laid out. "He [Al Husseini, that is] UNWISELY turned to Hitler for help in fighting the British."
That's all. Forget about those Jews. Forget about those Serbs either. -
Message 28
Posted by U3280211 (U3280211) on Thursday, 3rd March 2011
Your message 27 seems unconnected to the question I raised in my earlier post.
Once again you continue to evade the question I posed about this thread, presumably because your intense Zionist racism prevents you from criticising any other Zionist, however vicious their crime.
Here is a chance to have another try:
Do you condemn Baruch Goldstein's murder of 29 Palestinians, in their mosque, on 25-2-1994? -
Message 29
Posted by suvorovetz (U12273591) on Thursday, 3rd March 2011
Do you condemn Baruch Goldstein's murder of 29 Palestinians, in their mosque, on 25-2-1994?
Yes. I condemn any intentional targeting of civilians anywhere. That's where I and you differe so much. -
Message 30
Posted by U3280211 (U3280211) on Thursday, 3rd March 2011
To Alan
Thanks for your response.
Do you equally condemn the killing of 786 people (not all of them Jewish) in Palestinian suicide attacks
Yes, of course. But I can understand the desperation which drives people to do this.
Do you condemn the indiscriminate use of white phosphorus on civilians in Gaza?
-
Message 31
Posted by suvorovetz (U12273591) on Thursday, 3rd March 2011
Yes, of course. But I can understand the desperation which drives people to do this.
Given what you are on record here, on these boards, have written, I must say that anybody believing the first sentence above is either delusional or seriously challenged in terms reading comprehension. -
Message 32
Posted by U3280211 (U3280211) on Thursday, 3rd March 2011
Yes. I condemn any intentional targeting of civilians anywhere
Even in Deir Yassin?
and
What about ethnic cleansing, as described in Ilan Pappe's book on the Zionist ethnic cleansing of Palestine?
Do you condemn that? -
Message 33
Posted by suvorovetz (U12273591) on Thursday, 3rd March 2011
Do you condemn that?
Do you condemn the Elders of Zion? or Shylok? I know that you condemn all those blood sucking usureres - from your past posts here.
-
Message 34
Posted by U3280211 (U3280211) on Thursday, 3rd March 2011
You didn't answer my question from M32.
Have another go. -
Message 35
This posting has been hidden during moderation because it broke the in some way.
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Message 36
Posted by U3280211 (U3280211) on Friday, 4th March 2011
"Israel is a country run by a secular government structured as a typical European parliamentary democracy"
Not so, it is only 'democratic' if your ignore the fact that the original majority non-Jewish population was 'ethnically cleansed' and driven out in 1947/8
Israel is actually an entirely artificial entity which was born out of:
1) Mass immigration, by European Jews fleeing Russian pogroms and later, the Nazis,
2) Terrorism (against both the British and the Palestinians) and mass ethnic cleansing of the original population.
see
Let's attend to a few demographic facts.
In 1890 fewer than 3% of Palestinians were Jews. (Most very poor, in Jerusalem)
By 1947 just over 30% of Palestinians were Jews (Due to mass immigration from Europe)
By November 1948 77% of the population of Palestine, now renamed Israel, was Jewish.
That sudden change from 1947 to 1948 was brought about by massacres, ethnic cleansing and forced removal of much of the indigenous population.
(For statistical sources and the true history, see:
Ron David, “Arabs and Israel” (2001),
Noam Chomsky, “Fateful Triangle” 1999:
“Bad News from Israel”, Glasgow Media Group, inc. Greg Philo and Mike Berry (2004) (esp pages 1-90)
and
David Hirst (2010) "Beware of Small States" chps 1, 7, 10.) Faber and Faber.)
Israel is a colonial settler society based on ‘ethnic cleansing’ and terrorism.
It spends three times as much on the education of each Jewish child as on each Arab child.
It charges Arab families more for water and the water delivered is polluted.
-
Message 37
Posted by Allan D (U1791739) on Saturday, 5th March 2011
In 1854, according to a report in the New York Tribune, Jews constituted two-thirds of the population of that holy city. (The source: A journalist on assignment in the Middle East that year for the Tribune. His name was Karl Marx -- yes, that Karl Marx.)
In 1867, Mark Twain took a tour of Palestine. This is how he described that land: "A desolate country whose soil is rich enough but is given over wholly to weeds. A silent, mournful expanse. We never saw a human."
In 1882, official Ottoman Turk census figures showed that, in the entire Land of Israel, there were only 141 000 Muslims, both Arab and non-Arab.
A travel guide to Palestine and Syria was published in 1906 by Karl Baedeker; The book estimated the total population of Jerusalem at 60,000, of whom 7,000 were Muslims, 13,000 were Christians and 40,000 were Jews.
As the Jews came and drained the swamps and made the deserts bloom, Arabs followed. They came for jobs, for prosperity, for freedom. And, they came in large numbers.
In 1922, with what was widely acknowledged as the illegal separation of Transjordan, the Jews were forbidden to settle on almost 77% of Palestine, while Arab settlement went unrestricted and actually encouraged by British mandatory authority.
Prior to the Second World War, Mojli Amin, a member of the Arab Defense Committee for Palestine, proposed the idea "that all the Arabs of Palestine will leave and be divided up amongst the neighboring Arab countries. In exchange for this, all the Jews living in Arab countries will leave and come to Palestine."
Did you know that Saudi Arabia was not created until 1913, Lebanon until 1920? Iraq did not exist as a nation until 1932, Syria until 1941; the borders of Jordan were established in 1946, and Kuwait in 1961. Any of these nations that would say Israel is only a recent arrival would have to deny their own rights as recent arrivals as well. They did not exist as countries. They were all under the control of the Turks. Over 80% of the original British Mandate land was given to Arabs, without population transfer of Arabs from the land designated for Jews.
In 1947, the Jewish state huddled on 18% of the original British Mandate land. The Jews accepted it gratefully. The Arabs rejected it with a vengeance and seven Arab states immediately declared war against Israel.
In 1948, the Arab refugees were encouraged to leave Israel by Arab leaders promising to purge the land of Jews. Most of them left in fear of being killed by their own Arab brothers as traitors.
Some 850,000 Jewish refugees were forced to flee from Arab countries, due to Arab brutality, persecution and pogroms.
The number of Arab refugees who left Israel in 1948 is claimed to be around 630,000 (but where did they get this number?). Based on population census, the estimated number of Arabs who left Israel was around 460,000. They were ordered to leave by Arab leaders at the time.
From 1948 till 1967 Arabs made no attempt to create a Palestinian state. Under Jordanian rule, Jewish holy sites were desecrated, 58 synagogues in Jerusalem were destroyed, and the Jews and Christians were denied access to places of worship. Under Israeli rule, all Muslim and Christian sites have been preserved and made accessible to people of all faiths.
Arabs began identifying themselves as part of a Palestinian people in 1964 only, on the initiative of Egyptian-born Yasser Arafat. The idea became popular Arab propaganda tool after Israel re-captured Judea, Samaria and Gaza in the defensive Six-Day War of 1967,
Out of the 100,000,000 refugees since World War II, Arab-Palestinians are the only refugee group in the world that has never been absorbed or integrated into their own peoples' lands. Jewish refugees were completely absorbed into Israel.
Arab refugees INTENTIONALLY were not absorbed or integrated by the rich Arab oil states that control 99.9 percent of the Middle East landmass. They are kept as virtual prisoners by the Arab power brokers with misplaced hatred for Jews and Western democracy.
There is only one Jewish state. There are 60 Muslim countries, including 22 Arab nations.
The PLO's Charter still calls for the destruction of the State of Israel.
Pan-Arabism, or the doctrine of Muslim Caliphate, declares that all land that used to belong to Muslims must be returned to them. Thus, Spain, for example, must eventually be re-conquered.
-
Message 38
Posted by hotmousemat (U2388917) on Monday, 7th March 2011
A travel guide to Palestine and Syria was published in 1906 by Karl Baedeker...
Come, these are the history boards. Surely we operate to a higher standards than a copy/paste from Yahoo answers, that is in turn a copy/paste from another website ?
There are no remotely reliable population figures before 1931. As one example of the problems, the Ottoman census was used for the purpose of conscription (which only applied to Muslims). Not much incentive to be counted, especially not to be counted as a Muslim!
And the rest is one-sided and partial in a way that no serious historian would consider acceptable. As ever, I am baffled over why this topic turns otherwise fair and rational people into leader writers for a mirror image of the 'Volkischer Beobachter'. -
Message 39
Posted by U3280211 (U3280211) on Wednesday, 9th March 2011
To Alan re:37 (and pace, Hotmousemat 38)
Let’s see if we can move from a selection of Zionist snippets and contentious “Yahoo Answers” written by unidentified contributors, to proper peer-reviewed historical publications.
Let us begin with your quote from Samuel Clemens (aka, ‘Mark Twain’)
You say that:
In 1867, Mark Twain took a tour of Palestine.
He did. It was actually a trip to Europe and the Holy Land sites, not all of Palestine. He wrote it up as the book “Innocents Abroad” (1869) . His travelling companions included American Christian literalists and various shades of American Imperialists. Twain was an unashamed American Imperialist at that time. He was also a strong Presbyterian Christian. That all changed as he matured. He came to abhor organised religion and US Imperialism. He took a big lurch to the left. (See “The Autobiography of Mark Twain” ed Harriet Elinor Smith Volume 1, University of California Press, pages 462-3)
You cite two lines from the “Innocents Abroad”, completely out of context:
“A silent, mournful expanse. We never saw a human."
That refers to part of one day’s travels with the tourist group.
He actually met many local people. He disliked them all, apart from their Arab guide.
Here are some of his comments about the locals. The comments you decided to avoid in your wish to create the image of Palestine as a “Land without a People” (Zangwill’s famous Zionist propaganda phrase.)
“We came finally to the noble grove of orange-trees in which the Oriental city of Jaffa lies buried; we passed through the walls, and rode again down narrow streets and among swarms of animated rags, and saw other sights and had other experiences we had long been familiar with”.
“Renowned Jerusalem itself, the stateliest name in history, has lost all its ancient grandeur, and is become a pauper village.”
“It was a tall Arab, as swarthy as an Indian; young-say thirty years of age. On his head he had closely bound a gorgeous yellow and red striped silk scarf, whose ends, lavishly fringed with tassels, hung down between his shoulders and dallied with the wind.”
“From Galilee to the birthplace of the Savior, the country is infested with fierce Bedouins"
So, plenty of locals to be found, if you do your research properly. He merely saw them as non-human and dangerous, or ‘pauperised’ ‘swarms’ of “animated rags”.
In every village he entered, Arab children pursued him asking for “bucksheesh”.
So, in 1867, Palestine had plenty of people, even if Mark Twain then saw them through the eyes of an imperial racist.
In 1882, official Ottoman Turk census figures showed that, in the entire Land of Israel, there were only 141 000 Muslims, both Arab and non-Arab.
That is highly unlikely. I would need to see your source for that quote. The official Ottoman Census of Palestine for 1878 (just four years before the date you cite) gives the following figures:
Jews 15, 011; Muslims and Christians 447,454.
These figures are supported by Mc Carthy, J (1990) “The Population of Palestine” (Columbia University Press).
Ron David (2000) “Arabs and Israel” uses a slightly lower figure for Jews at that time.
David Hirst cites the same document in his (1977) “The Gun and the Olive Branch” (Faber and Faber), as does Greg Philo in “Bad News from Israel” (2004).
Bregman (2003) and Shaffir (1999) have also written about the demographic changes in Palestine, due to Russian Jewish immigration, following the assassination of the Tsar in 1881.
Immediately after the pogroms of that era, two million Jews escaped Russia for safety. The bulk went to America but there were two waves reaching Palestine before 1895, totalling 25,000. The first wave in 1882-4 and the second 1890-1891. Asher Ginsberg, a liberal Jew, noted how cruelly the Jews of the second wave, (no doubt brutalised by their own victimisation in Russia) treated the Palestinians. Jewish immigration to Palestine really ‘took off’ in the early 20th century.
For evidence of this maltreatment of native Palestinians, of this population you claim never existed, see: Avi Shlaim (2009) “Israel and Palestine” pages 54-62 Verso.
As the Jews came and drained the swamps and made the deserts bloom, Arabs followed. They came for jobs, for prosperity, for freedom. And, they came in large numbers
A classic recycled Zionist myth.
Demographers. (see above) have estimated that the growth in the Arab population of Palestine at that time, is due largely to reduced infant mortality as the frightful conditions described by Twain in 1867, improved with the rout of the Ottoman Turks.
In 1922, with what was widely acknowledged as the illegal separation of Transjordan, the Jews were forbidden to settle on almost 77% of Palestine
That is a silly sleight of hand. Russian Jews were not trying to get into “Transjordan”. They preferred coastal Palestine and Jerusalem, and what became Lebanon (See David Hirst (2010) “Beware of Small States” Faber and Faber esp. pages 1-44. (‘Zionists and Maronites’)
Did you know that Saudi Arabia was not created until 1913
Yes, I did.
Did you know that the founder of Zionism, Theo Herzl, seriously considered Chamberlain’s 1903 proposal that the “New Jewish home” should be in parts of Uganda?
Lord Rothschild was also sympathetic to Herzl’s request to fund Jewish land purchase in Cyprus.
The very rapid immigration of Russian Jews to England, the USA and Palestine was causing major political turmoil in all three countries, but it was the Palestinians who were told to accept the greatest demographic shift and the highest rate of population change. A change that would ultimately force them from their own land. Many people could see what was coming.
In January 1919 Lord Curzon noted, in a letter to Balfour:
(While)…Weizmann may say one thing to you about a ‘Jewish national home’. .. he is out for a Jewish State, a Jewish Nation with Arabs ruled by Jews. He is trying to effect this behind the shelter and under the screen of British trusteeship (The Mandate). (British Foreign Office Papers, 1919a) Cited by Ingrams, D. (1972) Seeds of Conflict. Palestine Papers 1917-1922 (John Murray, London)
Curzon was right in all particulars, was he not?
In 1947, the Jewish state huddled on 18% of the original British Mandate land. The Jews accepted it gratefully.
Twaddle. The Zionists had long-planned the seizure of the whole of mandated Palestine at the earliest opportunity, once the British had left. For evidence, see diaries of David Ben Gurion and his plans for ‘population transfer’ (Ethnic cleansing in today’s language).
See also Avi Shlaim,(2009), as above, pages 56-59. The Zionists (Irgun and Haganah) were never going to settle for just 18% of the mandated territory
In 1948, the Arab refugees were encouraged to leave Israel by Arab leaders promising to purge the land of Jews. Most of them left in fear of being killed by their own Arab brothers as traitors.
Completely untrue. That oft-asserted Zionist claim has been shown to be completely bogus by Hitchens and Said (1988) “Blaming the Victims”. Verso.
By Nur Masalha (1992) ‘Expulsion of the Palestinians’ and most recently by the Israeli historian Ilan Pappe (2006) ‘The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine’. (One World Books)
By November 1949, 730,000 Palestinians had been forced to become refugees
From 1948 till 1967 Arabs made no attempt to create a Palestinian state.(Elsewhere??)
Why on earth should they? They wanted to go home to their businesses and the lands they had farmed for hundreds of years. Lands from which they had been driven by force.
Finally, you note that
There is only one Jewish state.
How true. How long can it last, given its internal tensions?
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