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Calling officers 'sir'

• Message 1.Β 

  Posted by Anglo-Norman (U1965016) on Saturday, 15th January 2011

  A while ago I recall reading that in the 18th/early 19th century officers in the British Army were not called "sir". Indeed, you would only refer to an equal or inferior as "sir" - referring to a superior as "sir" was beyond the pale, even from a brother officer. I believe I'm right in saying that you would refer to a superior by their rank or as "Mr X" (or title, if they had one).
  
  Does anyone know when things changed, and if this also applied to the Royal Navy?

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  Posted by Herewordless (U14549396) on Sunday, 16th January 2011

  Interesting question, AN.
  
  I don't know the answer, but hope this helps;-
  
  

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  Posted by CASSEROLEON (U11049737) on Sunday, 16th January 2011

  Shades of the Medical Profession in which, I believe, a doctor is a doctor, but a surgeon is a "Mr".
  
  Cass

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  Posted by Anglo-Norman (U1965016) on Sunday, 16th January 2011

  Thanks, Man Alive - interesting.
  
  Cass, I understand that a Doctor is a Doctor whereas a Surgeon is a Mr because originally one was trained at university, the other was not.
  
  In the Middle Ages, Physicians obtained a doctorate at university using a system that was heavy on theory (balancing the humours and so on). Surgeons, by contrast, were practical craftsmen and learned their trade through the guild system. An apprentice surgeon, once he had completed his training, would become a 'Master' Surgeon, abbreviated to 'Mr'.

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  Posted by CASSEROLEON (U11049737) on Sunday, 16th January 2011

  Anglo-Norman
  
  Thanks. I think that you are right.
  
  Actually this whole thread struck me because of my own initial difficulty in finding myself addressed as "Sir" when I started work.
  
  Arriving at school there was usually at least one of the caretaking staff on duty and he would say "Good Morning, Sir".. I tried to protest about this apparent servility. But then I realised that with over 120 teaching staff, with a high turnover each year meaning perhaps 30-40 new teachers annually, it was much easier for them to just address all teachers or visotors as "Sir". And with 2,200 boys in the school, perforce a teacher on duty was often obliged to point and say "Come here, boy!"
  
  What I find interesting these days is that grown up Afro-Caribbean males, whom I casually chat to, often call me "Boss".
  
  Cass

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  Posted by LongWeekend (U3023428) on Sunday, 16th January 2011

  AN
  
  I believe that the military practice simply followed general social practice - the correspondence of Marlborough and others would seem to indicate this. I suspect that Other Ranks referred to their officers as "Sir" or "M'lord" as appropriate.
  
  "Sir" did not denote an inferior - that was "sirrah", as usage in Shakespeare shows.
  
  The use of "Mister" denoted an individual deserving of respect, the warrant officers and junior commissioned officers (second lieutenants and lieutenants) but who did not have a substantive commission i.e. Captain or above. (Dating from the time when individuals were granted a commission as Captain to raise a company).
  
  This persisted at least until recently (it still applied in the '80s and '90s when I was had the honour to hold the Queen's Commission) but the historical rationale was rarely cited.
  
  It was said that you could tell when you had been accepted by the troops, because they started to call you "boss" instead of "sir".
  
  LW
  
  
  

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