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Hurricane/Spitfire factories
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Message 1.Â
Posted by lyle88 (U8932905) on Monday, 29th November 2010
Just been reading the Daily Mail Battle of Britain book where there are several photos of Hurrican, Spitfire, and Beaufort factories. Can anyone tell me whether these factories were targeted for bombing during the war ?? cant find any evidence that they were.
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Message 2
Posted by CASSEROLEON (U11049737) on Tuesday, 30th November 2010
lyle88
I can not answer your question.. But surely the crucial and heroic moments of the Hurricane and Spitfire were during the Battle of Britain, which was all to do with Hitler's hurried invasion plans- and the battle for air supremacy over the English Channel, without which the Royal Navy would continue to "Rule the waves".
It was after the failure of the Luftwaffe to win control of the air that Germany turned to the policy of bombing Britain into surrender.. and then crucial areas like the docks were probably much more important targets.. As was featured yesterday on TV because of the anniversary of the huge raid upon the docks in Liverpool, so important for the convoys coming across the Atlantic.
There has been various speculations about the way that my home town of Oxford came off pretty lightly, though there was already the industrial quarter of Cowley. But the Morris works there were part of the new light industries that were part of the new industrial revolution of the Twenties, and the new electric grid.. that allowed such places to be scattered around.. It is possible that Hurrican and Spitfire factories were similarly placed.. And in strategic planning surely the Germans would have gone for heavy industries and even light industries clustered in great industrial centres like Coventry.
Just some thoughts.
Cass -
Message 3
Posted by rooster (U14062359) on Tuesday, 30th November 2010
Hi Lyle. Hi Cass.
The Germans indeed targetted our fighter producing facilities at the Spitfire and Hurricane producing factories of Castle Bromwich, a suburb of Birmingham, and also the Boulton Paul aircraft factory in Wolverhampton.
They did actually cause extensive damage at these sights, but it wasn't long before we were up and running again.
Rooster -
Message 4
Posted by CASSEROLEON (U11049737) on Tuesday, 30th November 2010
SleepyRooster
Thanks for that.. After I finished my previous post I thought of a recent reading of a biography of Group Captain Leonard Cheshire and his battle for low level precision bombing, having been able to expose the inability of high level bombing to actually "take out" key targets.
Most of the film of German bombing one sees seems to be high level- but perhaps they would be for filming purposes; But one gets the impression that much of the German bombing was not as targetted as the almost crazy Cheshire managed to achieve.
Cass -
Message 5
Posted by rooster (U14062359) on Tuesday, 30th November 2010
Cass
To try and find the Castle Bromwich Spitfire factory, the germans had to use low-level bombers. We must have had the place well camouflaged however, because many bombers overshot Birmingham altogether and dropped their payloads anywhere they saw fit before turning for home.
I used to live in Dudley in the west mids and there is a beautiful old church at the top of the town with a tall steeple that is visible for miles around. Out of sheer frustration, the german pilots would straffe this church and even today one can still see numerous bullet holes in the old limestone blocks. One pilot even tried to offload his bombs onto the church, but only managed to completely destroy a cinema close by.
As an aside to this, I heard an account by Alex Henshaw MBE (deceased) who was chief test pilot of the Spitfire at Castle Bromwich.
In an interview, this tough old bird chuckled as he remembered testing one upgraded plane at low level over Birmingham city centre. He said he rolled the plane about 50 feet above Broad St, in the city centre, scattering pedestrians every which way...A remarkable, but typical Englishman of his time!
They made Lancaster bombers by the way at Castle Bromwich too.
Rooster -
Message 6
Posted by giraffe47 (U4048491) on Tuesday, 30th November 2010
At that stage of the war, the British bombing was just as inaccurate as the German, and probably worse. They had trouble hitting the right country at times.
Mind you, the Germans bombed Dublin by mistake, as well!
It was not till 1944-ish that the pathfinders really got going, and Cheshire and the Dambuster squardon started 'dropping bombs into pickle barrels', as the Americans sometimes claimed (wrongly) that they could do with B17s in daylight. -
Message 7
Posted by CASSEROLEON (U11049737) on Tuesday, 30th November 2010
Rooster
Thanks for that.. Your comment about "typical" Brits of that time, reinforced the lessons of that Cheshire book... i.e the way that people after the war forgot just how much was due to exceptional individuals who insisted on being true to a tradition of "freeborn Englishmen" who always believed "don't let the xx grind you down."
Cass -
Message 8
Posted by MB (U177470) on Tuesday, 30th November 2010
Shadow factories were built all over the country to disperse production, some were underground though mainly (or all?) for components and engines. Some production was in unlikely places like sections of Lancaster bomber fuselages made in Llanberis, North Wales.
MB -
Message 9
Posted by Mutatis_Mutandis (U8620894) on Wednesday, 1st December 2010
Most of the factories were targeted at some time, but damage tended to be limited: The Luftwaffe did not have the bomber force required to make the repeated attacks that were needed to put a factory out of production and keep it out of production, nor good enough reconnaissance forces to do an effective damage assessment. (Nor, of course, did the RAF have these in 1940-1941.)
Something of an exception were the Supermarine plants in Southampton, at Woolston and Itchen. A raid on 26 September 1940 wrecked the buildings on these sites. These factories were in a very vulnerable location, well within German bomber range and easy to find: The Woolston factory was on the eastern bank of the Solent, with a slipway into the water -- because it had originally been built for the construction of seaplanes -- and pictures show that it really stood out as a target. Beaverbrook ordered the buildings to be abandoned. The machine tools (which had mostly survived the attack) were dispersed to other sites. Quite a few garages were quickly converted for airplane manufacture.
The day before an attack on the Bristol factories at Filton had also done serious damage, and the day before that an attack on Woolston had killed nearly 100 people of the Supermarine staff. So at the end of September, the threat to British aircraft manufacturing was serious. However, for the Luftwaffe it was too little, too late, as the Battle of Britain was already running towards its end. -
Message 10
Posted by Pete- Weatherman (U14670985) on Thursday, 2nd December 2010
I live not far from where the first Spits were built (and flew from) The factory was offten hit, but so was a large part of Southampton, like a lot of factorys air craft production was high prioraty target so as stated above, lots were hit.but owing to poor bomb sights, flak and darkness it was more offten down to luck than jugment.
If you whant to see were the first Spits were built go to Googel maps put in Southamton, look for the Itchen bridge ,It is to the East of the city on the river mouth to the right. were the bridge rejoins the land on the east bank is the exact spot were the factory once stood, there is a plaque undder the bridge to commemerate it. To the north (about 2 mile/3kilo) is Southampton airport (Then Eastliegh airport) the site of there first test flight. And even today I can see dozens take off and land all year (AHHH bliss) as there are still several based there.
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Message 11
Posted by bandick (U14360315) on Tuesday, 7th December 2010
Pete… hi.
I spent a long time tied up alongside a tank cleaners at Woolston as part of the crew of a small tanker… the only place the owners could get where we, i.e. the crew were perhaps allowed to do a lot of the work ourselves. The ship had previously been loaded with latex, discharged at Terneuzen and then loaded with gas oil. The two didn’t mix and the residue after discharging the gas oil was something resembling Evostick… inches thick and as slippery as ice. It took weeks, months, long enough for me to witness a large part of the Woolston Bridge being constructed, including the central spans… very interesting.
I recall coming off the ferry and walking to the ship past the workshops you mention, at the time I’m sure they were being used as a college for apprentice boat builders… something like that, hard to imagine that from such small humble beginnings the mighty spit spat forth.
I tried to find the place a few years ago… it’s all gone… the pub on the corner, the Yacht? is still there… but the tank cleaners… Burwells? all gone without a trace, and I didn’t recognise anything… but then Thornycrofts going has left a massive hole on the water front.
Regards bandick
I too often see a few spits flying over me in the forest... a wonderful sight. -
Message 12
Posted by Sambista (U4068266) on Tuesday, 7th December 2010
If you can find a copy, Henshaw's book "Sigh for a Merlin" has a fair bit about Castle Bromwich etc in it, and is worth a read.
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Message 13
Posted by rooster (U14062359) on Wednesday, 8th December 2010
Urnungal
Thanks for that.
I will scoure the charity shops for the book. It will be out of print by now and my local library has never stocked it.
It is truly remarkable how some of these 'old stagers' such as Henshaw viewed life, I suppose the uncertainty of their times helped cause that.
My own father was a fighter pilot during ww2, and was killed in May '44 when his Mosquito was downed over the North Sea.
I was still in the womb, and it is infuriating not to be able to retrieve details of his mission etc. because of the stupid 'need to know' law, as I call it.
Anyway, moan over, thanks again.
Rooster -
Message 14
Posted by Pete- Weatherman (U14670985) on Wednesday, 8th December 2010
The wife had a relly ( A G/Uncle) that flew Mossies, He was in 9 Sqd Pathfinders transferd to 2 Sqd and died on the Shell house raid.
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Message 15
Posted by MB (U177470) on Wednesday, 8th December 2010
What "need to know" law is restricting access?
I thought many squadron diaries / operations record book were available for viewing. A WWII serviceman's personal record will only be available to his family so you should be able to get that.
I would try asking in this forum as many people there with a lot of knowledge about the RAF, someone might be able to give you more information on the operation.
MB -
Message 16
Posted by rooster (U14062359) on Wednesday, 8th December 2010
MB
Thanks a lot for the info.
I sent for, and received a copy of my father's service record ( £30 for two photocopied sheets of paper ) but I cannot get them to give me details of the operations he took part in, or indeed what op he was on when he died.
I am more than hopeful of getting somewhere with the site you have directed me to now, and for which I thank you.
Regards, Rooster -
Message 17
Posted by MB (U177470) on Wednesday, 8th December 2010
I think the service record is just that, a record of service i.e. where served, when promoted etc.
I think The National Archive have file about what records are available.
They mention having Combat Reports.
I think there are also Operations Record Books
I would see if there are any organisations (or websites) for either the squadron or airfield where he was serving.
You might get some clues from searching for other deaths on the date, might show some others in the same squadron.
If he is buried overseas and you have not seen the grave then there might be a photograph on the TWGPP website
MB -
Message 18
Posted by Sambista (U4068266) on Wednesday, 8th December 2010
Thanks for that.
I will scoure the charity shops for the book. It will be out of print by now and my local library has never stocked it.Â
Copies are available from sellers on Abebooks - about £3 including p&p. Always worth a look there if you are after a "hen's teeth" book. -
Message 19
Posted by rooster (U14062359) on Thursday, 9th December 2010
Message for MB
Thanks a lot for pointing me toward the 'RAF Commands Forum' website.
You were right, there are some very knowledgeable people on there, and they managed to tell me everything I needed to know.
God only knows how they get their information, but after trying on-and-off for more years than I care to remember, I always drew a blank. They replied to my query within minutes!!
Thanks again, Rooster. -
Message 20
Posted by MB (U177470) on Thursday, 9th December 2010
Good to hear that!
MB -
Message 21
Posted by MB (U177470) on Thursday, 9th December 2010
Just looked on the site and it was a VERY quick reply.
If you do a search on the aircraft number and type on Google then there are other references to it including this
There is also one for the same number crashing in 1940 which is odd because I thought an aircraft number would be unique.
MB
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