Wars and Conflicts permalink
Poppy or what
This discussion has been closed.
-
Message 1.Â
Posted by Pete- Weatherman (U14670985) on Thursday, 4th November 2010
For over 50 years I have religously brought a POPPY but this year i have gone one better . I got a Wrist band (and a Poppy). As Ex- Army poppy day means a lot to me as it dose to 1000s of others. Let us once again Remember thous who gave so much........To every one who gave there all....Thank You......To every one Who gave there Life.... I WILL NOT FORGET.
-
Message 2
Posted by MB (U177470) on Thursday, 4th November 2010
I see in the papers that the Royal British Legion brought out a limited edition of gold plated poppies only to see them being resold on eBay for much higher prices which of course does not go to the charity.
-
Message 3
Posted by crusader2 (U14330993) on Thursday, 4th November 2010
It is inevitable, lots of things sold in charity shops end up at auction raising even more than the charity shop was selling the item for.
You cannot stop the resell of anything. I would like to think that some of the poppy pin sellers will make a further contribution to the poppy appeal, but they cannot be forced to do that.
At least the initial sale of the items did raise awareness and funds for the charity. -
Message 4
Posted by Tudor Rose (U14629618) on Thursday, 4th November 2010
Fair play to you Pete
As Vice Chairman of Cippenham RBL we do our best to promote the Legion's work all year round, but really value the support shown at this time of year both by ex forces personnel and ordinary members of the public ( especially in the times of the credit crunch )
Thanks -
Message 5
Posted by Amphion (U3338999) on Thursday, 4th November 2010
I could never understand why the period of sale of the poppy seems so short. Probably two weeks since the poppy went on sale in my area., or should I say when I first noticed them being sold. Maybe its longer than I realise, but as the collection is donation based, and compared to the period when Fireworks are on sale which seems to be from at least the beginning of September....
I got mine in a pub because I saw the display box/collectors tin, behind the bar. If I go in the various shops I don't see the display.
I would normally buy them from the various distinguished looking gentlemen who stand at the entrance to the shopping malls (in all weathers)
At least the appeal of the poppy has remained dignified. -
Message 6
Posted by 2295wynberglad (U7761102) on Thursday, 4th November 2010
As a caseworker for the RBL, can I add my 2p worth. The 2 weeks period is of course rememberance of 11/11. However the poppy has become the national symbol for all who gave their lives for our freedom in any conflict, and in my view it should be worn at any time when it is for a service person who has made the ultimate sacrifice. When I went to Wotton Bassett I worn one. Not one person questioned my reason for my display. I also placed a poppy wreath at the war memorial.
The RBL is offten ridiculed by some as old and out of touch, this is not the case in my home town.
2295wynberglad -
Message 7
Posted by dmatt47 (U13073434) on Thursday, 4th November 2010
I would like to say that the Royal British Legion also tried to help ex-servicemen to get a job after the big demobiisation in the early 1920s, my grandfather was one.
-
Message 8
Posted by Sambista (U4068266) on Thursday, 4th November 2010
I have somewhat mixed feelings about the poopy, largely because of my great-grandfather. In 1914, he was working as a farm bailiff, but still liable to reserve service. Within a week of the outbreak of the Great War, he was recalled to his regiment, on his way to Mons, and the farmer evicted his wife and daughters from the tied cottage they lived in as it was needed for a new bailiff.
He would wax almost incandescent over the Festival of Remembrance, When the let the poppies fall, he was heard to remark "They think more of those b------- poppies than they did of our lives". -
Message 9
Posted by MB (U177470) on Thursday, 4th November 2010
I suspect that the period of sale of poppies is so short so they can concentrate the publicity into a shorter time but also it might be to reduce the impact on other charities. I think there is a general rule that only the poppy collectors are out on the last Saturday with no other charity collections allowed but other charities must suffer a drop in donations whilst there are poppy collection tins in every shop and other public place. But I am guessing.
-
Message 10
Posted by 2295wynberglad (U7761102) on Friday, 5th November 2010
While I agree with what you say, however the RBL did not kick off fully until 1921, since then the RBL has worked to improve all that is done for service men and women. I have been involved with both the elderly and the young. 6 wet rooms fitted 3 for the older and 3 for the young servicemen. Re housing at least 8 to date one of these a young widow with 2 small children, help in civvy street well the list goes on all the time.
Oh yes there are those who feel hurt at the loss of relatives. And I am the first to share their hurt, after all said and done thats what we are there for.
What I hate to see is firme selling poppy broches and only sending 10% to the RBL,in my view that theft from a charity.
2295wynberglad -
Message 11
Posted by AlexanderLiberty (U14397753) on Friday, 5th November 2010
Hi everyone,
I honor all who served the cause of freedom in UK forces and in the British civil society.
But the freedom that they fought for, and the country grand they wrought for, Is their monument to-day, and for aye.
Bye -
Message 12
Posted by Pete- Weatherman (U14670985) on Monday, 8th November 2010
All my relatives that fought or were involved in WW2 came back, I am one of the lucky one in that respect. So with Resepect to all thous that were not so luck I ware my Poppy for you and yours.
-
Message 13
Posted by MB (U177470) on Monday, 8th November 2010
Whilst researching my family history I found one branch who lost three brothers in WWI, the eldest brother had emigrated and a younger one was too young to join up fortunately.
-
Message 14
Posted by Dai Digital (U13628545) on Wednesday, 10th November 2010
The poppy has long been ruthlessly and cynically hijacked by the forces of war and nationalism. The latest shiny new front-men of military-chic, the glorifiers of military service who believe the lie of Heroism in the name of the mother-country are morally no better than Haig himself. All guaranteed to nauseate every soldier who was in the trenches of Flanders or on the Normandy beaches, who know the lie of dulce et decorum est pro patria mori.
The poppy is now a symbol of war, not a remembrance in respect of the dead. -
Message 15
Posted by Pete- Weatherman (U14670985) on Wednesday, 10th November 2010
Dai Did some one steal your teddy as a baby. Go out there and find out what life is realy like befor you make Crass comments. Shelf oppionated bigots who have had no or little experance of life like you make me sick
-
Message 16
Posted by Dai Digital (U13628545) on Wednesday, 10th November 2010
In reply to Pete:Â Standard knee-jerk response to an unpleasant truth. When you have assembled some sort of argument, let us know.
This kind of blank horror is typical of those infected with the current wave of jingoistic war-mongering Hero-Worship.
The wars of the C20th were total wars between rival economic trading blocks, and the sacrifices were universal. A genuine remembrance would acknowledge all victims of war AND the victims of the economic process which causes war, such as those who died in the mines factories and forges of the global industrial powerhouse. And it would be a declaration of peace, not a glorification of it. -
Message 17
Posted by Dai Digital (U13628545) on Wednesday, 10th November 2010
'war' for 'it'
! -
Message 18
Posted by TimTrack (U1730472) on Wednesday, 10th November 2010
The wars of the C20th were total wars between rival economic trading blocksÂ
Some wars may indeed be about trade.
But such blanket statements of the period that covers WW2 show a crass ignorance of what was going on. -
Message 19
Posted by Pete- Weatherman (U14670985) on Wednesday, 10th November 2010
What are you on about. When I and others like me bye a Poppy we are doing it out or respect of thouse who paid the made the ultimate sacrefic and to help thouse who where scared by war.
There is NOTHING in war that suggests Glory. but there are thous who refer to it in a poetic why. I had relatives in both wars as did most people, thay did so becuse Thay beleved in what thay were doing, not becuse a goverment told them.
I to joind the army becuse I whanted to, not becuse I was made to and that was when you ended up going to Irland. I whent beleveing I was helping the majoraty and what thay whanted. Or are you going to tell me I was wrong and I am some goverment lacky.
I agree WW1 was a stupid war but not WW2 the way the Nazis walked all over countrys and there holacalistic vews toward Jews ment some thing had to be done. Remember if it was not for thous brave men you would be talking German today.
And as for remembering all of wars fallen I DO no matter what side thay were on
The truth dose not hurt but lies do. And the only reson my reply was a standerd Knee-jerk reaction is becuse like most people we find its only People like YOU that beleve the CR*P you come out with. -
Message 20
Posted by Thomas_B (U1667093) on Wednesday, 10th November 2010
The poppy is now a symbol of war, not a remembrance in respect of the dead.Â
I don´t see it that way, because there are several poppy fields on the former battle fields / trenches. Therefore, to my thinking they are indeed a symbol of remembrance, at least for the fallen of WWI, not so sure about those of WWII, but for the fact that this is a British tradition, I pay my respect to it.
Is it really necessary to bother an old veteran with such remarks as you did? I can´t understand your intentions.
To track both world wars on a simple economic rivality for its cause is missing the ideology at least in WWII and without WWI, there wouldn´t had been a WWII. -
Message 21
Posted by Dai Digital (U13628545) on Wednesday, 10th November 2010
In reply to TimTrack:
"The wars of the C20th were total wars between rival economic trading blocks"
Some wars may indeed be about trade.
But such blanket statements of the period that covers WW2 show a crass ignorance of what was going on.Â
Why? You believe that it was a war to defeat the sudden, unexplained emergence from nowhere of an evil ideology?
You've been reading to much Tolkein, and even the war of the ring had causes. WW2 was about rival approaches to modern industrial power, and the raw materials it demanded. 'Lebensraum' was in fact code for 'Central Asian Oil' unlimited grain and slave labour.
The same deal with Japan and its 'Co-Prosperity Sphere' - or Empire, as we called it.
And all now endorsed by the poppy and its modern cult of Hero-Worship. -
Message 22
Posted by Thomas_B (U1667093) on Wednesday, 10th November 2010
In reply to Dai Digital:
WW2 was about rival approaches to modern industrial power, and the raw materials it demanded. 'Lebensraum' was in fact code for 'Central Asian Oil' unlimited grain and slave labour.Â
That´s correct, but it does include the "war to defeat the sudden, unexplained emergence from nowhere of an evil ideology". Otherwise, you´d have just understood one part of the term "Lebensraum". -
Message 23
Posted by Dai Digital (U13628545) on Wednesday, 10th November 2010
In reply to Thomas_B:
"In reply to Dai Digital:
That´s correct, but it does include the "war to defeat the sudden, unexplained emergence from nowhere of an evil ideology". Â
Only if you accept that it emerged 'from nowhere'.
It didn't of course. It was a direct, even predictable, result of tangible economic and political forces. And worse of all, it was entirely preventable.
It was not the work of the Devil. -
Message 24
Posted by Big Nose Kate (U2898677) on Wednesday, 10th November 2010
As a Veteran of the Cold War and Operation Granby I always buy a poppy or three and will be on parade tomorrow and on Sunday. Pus I will be on parade at the Cenotaph a week on Sunday for Cambrai Day.
The Flanders Poppy is the national symbol of remembrance not a symbol of war as one ill informed poster has suggested who I doubt has served or has the guts to serve. I find it disgusting that a thread about remembrance has been hijacked or attacked by someone who obviously doesn't know what it means to the ex-service community of the UK and the world. The idea of the Poppy Appeal is to raise funds to help those ex-service men and women and their dependants when times are hard either financially or mentally.
I am proud to have served this country and i wear my poppy, medal and my old headdress with pride. -
Message 25
Posted by colonelblimp (U1705702) on Wednesday, 10th November 2010
I suggest you read Message 8.
And I agree with Pete. Armed Forces Day is another example of the same thing: a political propaganda exercise intended to allow the government to claim that, because people turn out for parades and the like, the public obviously supports the war in Afghanistan or any other pointless military operation in which the USA requires our participation. At one time, I always used to buy a poppy but I haven't for years.
In answer to your question, as you say, you chose to join the Army as a career. Nothing wrong in that but a career soldier certainly can't assume that everything he's ordered to do is what most people in the country want, or that he's entitled to universal respect for doing the job he signed up for voluntarily. My problem with the poppy is that it started as a tribute to men and women who had no choice but to serve, and who were defending this country against enemies who really did threaten its existence, but that it's now been hijacked and is interpreted as a token of support for policies which I don't support. And of public respect for people who I don't judge to be deserving of any more (or less) respect than those in a lot of other jobs. -
Message 26
Posted by Dai Digital (U13628545) on Wednesday, 10th November 2010
In reply to Farodealer:
The Flanders Poppy is the national symbol of remembrance not a symbol of war as one ill informed poster has suggestedÂ
It only commemorates the military dead. It therefore glorifies war.
A meaningful remembrance would include all the dead, all servicemen and women of both sides, and all civilians sacrificed to war, and all who died or suffered to make the war possible, which would be a truly universal declaration of peace, and a sincere assertion of human values.
But that is not the stated purpose of the poppy, or the way it is spun by the media, which refers to every soldier as a 'Hero', tempting more hapless and jobless teenagers into risking their lives in the name of oil company profits..
I love the insistence that only ex-soldiers have a right to an opinion about the morality of war. It's like the argument that only Bishops can pronounce on the existence of god. It is the ultimate example of a crude attempt at intellectual bullying, but without the intellect. Proving that being a soldier only requires the ability to do and believe what you're told. Like a machine. -
Message 27
Posted by 2295wynberglad (U7761102) on Wednesday, 10th November 2010
ruthless & cynically hijacked? rubbish out of all the folk that I know of who buy a poppy from me or any of the collectors, none would agree with you.
Please do not twist the truth, the first war was one of complete horror, people who could not know how to break out of a bad situation. It was the first time in history that aircraft Tanks & some of the largest guns ever made were used.
Led by Generals who had been taught in the old methods of war.
The second conflict has a much deeper problem, the fact that one man could lead a nation,thinking that they were better than any other, thus giving them the god given wright to wipe out any who they saw as unfit to live.
FOR THEM I WEAR MY POPPY.
DAI think again.
Wynberglad -
Message 28
Posted by Dai Digital (U13628545) on Wednesday, 10th November 2010
The second conflict has a much deeper problem, the fact that one man could lead a nation,thinking that they were better than any other, thus giving them the god given wright to wipe out any who they saw as unfit to live.
FOR THEM I WEAR MY POPPY.Â
I've done quite enough thinking about this. But you don't seem to have done any.
Some inaccurate potted history doesn't make an argument.
Cherry-picking which victims to remember, as you do, is not very respectful to the rest. And betrays a total misinterpretation of history. -
Message 29
Posted by Big Nose Kate (U2898677) on Wednesday, 10th November 2010
Dia, it commemorates ALL the dead military or civilian. If it was only for the military, then why does the civilian services like the Merchant Navy, the ambulance service, police, Bevan Boys and RNLI march past the Cenotaph? The poppy does not by any way glorify war. There is nothing glorious about war. I speak from personal experience. if you think that the sights, sounds and smells i experienced in 1991 are glorious then you are sadly mistaken.
Being a soldier is not just doing what you are told and being a machine. It is about thinking for yourself in very stressful situations and being part of a team. There are some situations where a service man or woman has to think for themselves because there is no one in higher authority present or their is no time to seek help from higher up the chain of command. Also the Poppy is not used as a recruiting tool by the forces.
It stands out a mile that you have never served this country and you seem to hold the men and women of our Armed Forces in contempt. That in itself is beneath contempt as those men and women and those who have served in the past served for you and everyone in this country so that we can live our lives as safely and as freely as possible.
When I lay tributes at memorials I am not only paying tribute to Commonwealth and Allied war dead but also the dead of the enemy forces. What is wrong in giving a little bit of money every year to the Poppy Appeal in aid of ex-servicemen and women and 2 minutes of silence in remberance? is that to much for you? if it is then you are a sad individual.
Lest We Forget -
Message 30
Posted by Dai Digital (U13628545) on Wednesday, 10th November 2010
Posted by Farodealer (U2898677) ** on Wednesday, 10th November 2010 (3 Minutes Ago)
Dia, it commemorates ALL the dead military or civilian. If it was only for the military, then why does the civilian services like the Merchant Navy, the ambulance service, police, Bevan Boys and RNLI march past the Cenotaph? For the same reason that there is a race to be the first to wear a poppy on TV, around mid october and getting earlier each year.
The presence of those services on the day in no way remembers the masses of civilians who died in needless and obscene conflicts, nor those who died at work in the various war economies.
In fact, the Cenotaph text from the Binyon poem refers specifically to the 'dead across the sea'.
"With proud thanksgiving, a mother for her children,
England mourns for her dead across the sea.
Flesh of her flesh they were, spirit of her spirit,
Fallen in the cause of the free. "
All very misleading, and no better than a hymn to dead soldiers who fell in the cause of big business, mainly, and still do.
. -
Message 31
Posted by Big Nose Kate (U2898677) on Wednesday, 10th November 2010
Would you say that WW2 was needless or the Falklands or Op Granby? I wouldn't.
People like you would be happy if we disbanded our Armed Forces and left this country defenceless -
Message 32
Posted by Dai Digital (U13628545) on Thursday, 11th November 2010
In reply to Farodealer:
Would you say that WW2 was needless.Â
Ultimately yes. It wasn't inevitable. Most historians are agreed about that. It had real political and economic causes which were the result of actions taken in the name of money. A humane political resolution of the First World war, and a reconstruction package involving international co-operation would have nipped it in the bud. But there were markets to feed and profits to be made. And socialism to crush, as well.
As late as 1936 there was a chance to crush fascim on its rehearsal in Spain. But instead capitalism saw it as an opportunity to destroy a democratically elected progressive society, in case it should provide a bad example to its workforce.
By 1939, war was a very necessary evil, but it needn't have happened at all, especially if the will of the people had not been systematically and ruthlessly crushed wherever it made itself felt. And trhen there would not have been a great depression requiring the mass production (and destruction) of arms to kick-start economies all over the world. -
Message 33
Posted by VF (U5759986) on Friday, 12th November 2010
"In reply to Farodealer:
Would you say that WW2 was needless."
Ultimately yes. It wasn't inevitable. Most historians are agreed about that. It had real political and economic causes which were the result of actions taken in the name of money. A humane political resolution of the First World war, and a reconstruction package involving international co-operation would have nipped it in the bud. But there were markets to feed and profits to be made. And socialism to crush, as well.
As late as 1936 there was a chance to crush fascim on its rehearsal in Spain. But instead capitalism saw it as an opportunity to destroy a democratically elected progressive society, in case it should provide a bad example to its workforce.
By 1939, war was a very necessary evil, but it needn't have happened at all, especially if the will of the people had not been systematically and ruthlessly crushed wherever it made itself felt. And trhen there would not have been a great depression requiring the mass production (and destruction) of arms to kick-start economies all over the world.Â
Its easy with the benefit of hindsight to say that this that or the other could have been avoided.What Government or people in its right mind would want a repeat of a 1914 - 1918 conflict?The British Government was well aware that it could not afford to fight a war on that scale again.Unfortunately they then realised that they couldn't afford not to,hence the rather rushed rearmament programme.Do I blame those alive at the time for trying to avoid war at all costs? No,not at all, go onto any one of the message boards on the Â鶹ԼÅÄ that discuss present day conflicts and world issues and that is the big message its better to talk first.
As for "kick starting" economies,the USA may have had an economic boom but Britain was a shattered bankrupt by the end of WW2 (just as had been feared by the British Government) and Western Europe was in ruins.Hardly a kickstart,more repeated kicks to the head.
As for the poppy issue,its a personal choice.I respect (though don't agree with ) your viewpoint,I think that its only fair that you respect that others may not agree with yours. -
Message 34
Posted by Dai Digital (U13628545) on Friday, 12th November 2010
In reply to VF:
Its easy with the benefit of hindsight...Â
Except that egalitarians of all stripes as far back as the Levellers and beyond has been offering the same solution to war as that available in 1918.
Naturally, the emotional reality of the time was against anti-fascist intervention. But there was no need at all for objectively aiding fascism, as happened in Spain. And various British companies made money selling war-goods and materials to germany during its re-militarisation, when war with them was obvious.
And the depth of public feeling against Germany probably did make any less punitive settlement unlikely. But it was not impossible. Surely this was a role for the church if ever there was one. In fact, had the clergy put their noses to that grindstone of Christian reconciliation, people might actually believe in god today. -
Message 35
Posted by VF (U5759986) on Friday, 12th November 2010
Dai,I seem to remember a cartoon (cant think of the right description for it ) where the "Big 3" Lloyd George,Clemanceau and Wilson leave Versailles and hear a child crying.They ask "whats that noise?" and in the corner is a naked child crying with the caption "the 30's generation" above it.
It was very prophetic.Personally I think any chance of stifling Nazism ended when Hitler was allowed to re-militarise the Rhine. -
Message 36
Posted by Dai Digital (U13628545) on Friday, 12th November 2010
When Sassoon renamed Owen's poem 'Anthem for DOOMED Youth', he was being a prophet, too.
About this Board
The History message boards are now closed. They remain visible as a matter of record but the opportunity to add new comments or open new threads is no longer available. Thank you all for your valued contributions over many years.
or  to take part in a discussion.
The message board is currently closed for posting.
The message board is closed for posting.
This messageboard is .
Find out more about this board's
Search this Board
Â鶹ԼÅÄ iD
Â鶹ԼÅÄ navigation
Â鶹ԼÅÄ links
Â鶹ԼÅÄ Â© 2014 The Â鶹ԼÅÄ is not responsible for the content of external sites. Read more.
This page is best viewed in an up-to-date web browser with style sheets (CSS) enabled. While you will be able to view the content of this page in your current browser, you will not be able to get the full visual experience. Please consider upgrading your browser software or enabling style sheets (CSS) if you are able to do so.