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warsaw uprising - result of patriotism or miscalculation ?

• Message 1. 

  Posted by slawek-poland (U1820041) on Monday, 8th August 2005

  Most of Poles say that without Uprising , we would be occupied by Soviets as their republic .
  On the other hand , with hindsight , we know how little we gained and how much we lost .
  More and more people say , that the whole action should be consulted with Soviets so that Stalin would continue his attacs and wouldn`t stop his offesive on the eastern bank of Vistula river ( allowing Germans to destroy the city and it`s citizens ).
  I wonder what do You think about the decission of launching the uprising by by Polish underground commandment - without sufficient preparation but with hope of freedom .
  Slawek .

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• Message 2

  , in reply to message 1.

  Posted by arnaldalmaric (U1756653) on Monday, 8th August 2005

  Jozef, it's your turn.
  Cheers AA.
  

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• Message 3

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  Posted by Jozef (U1330965) on Monday, 8th August 2005

  Slawek,
  
  Bor Komorowski and the other AK commanders in Warsaw were in a no win situation, so you can’t really call it a miscalculation. Poland’s Western Allies were actually telling the Polish Government-in-Exile that an uprising would be a good thing; though it has to be stressed that the Poles in London left it to Warsaw to make the ultimate decision. Then again Soviet Army radio was positively appealing for Warsaw to rise and sneakily complaining to Western allies that the Poles were cowards. The AK commanders knew that they were desperately under armed, but considering the proximity of Red Army troops they could expect that sections of their underground army would rise regardless of whether or not the order was given. So they decided, IMO rightly, that the most responsible way out was to give the go ahead, as at least then it would be done in a coordinated fashion.
  
  Yes, I know Gen Anders said it was a catastrophic blunder, but he was a fine one to talk: he could have refused to send his soldiers up to Monte Cassino. It was a catastrophe, but I wouldn’t blame the AK commanders. If anyone made serious mistakes in this hopeless situation, it was Roosevelt and Churchill. With their weak stance, Stalin was having a field day.
  
  On the other hand, I think it’s a gross exaggeration to say that without the Warsaw Rising, Poland would have become another Soviet republic. The Rising did make a difference, but in a more subtle way. Poland wouldn’t be the one you know. It’d be more like Czechoslovakia or Bulgaria, i.e. you wouldn’t have Solidarity, Cardinal Wyszynski or even JPII, because communist Poland would simply have been much more under the Soviet thumb. People say that the only thing gained from the Warsaw Rising was honour, but in the long run honour also has its value.
  
  Cheers, Jozef
  

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• Message 4

  , in reply to message 1.

  Posted by dolphin_cloudy (U1815090) on Tuesday, 9th August 2005

  From a military point of view, the Warsaw uprising was unsuccessful without Soviet Army's support. Because even if Nazi's Army was weakened by fierce battles at that time, it had enough forces - tanks and guns - to defeat a rebel army whose equipment was imperfect.
  Russian troops were nearby Warsaw then. So if they had cooperated with the Polish, they would have released the city.
  But Stalin was not kindhearted to make over the land that he had released by himself to the Polish government which was connected with the Allies. He was anxious to make Poland a shield of his country. And actually he did.
  By the way, their official view about the reason for having deserted the rebellion is that Soviet soldiers were very tired.
  This is the reason why I think the Warsaw uprising was a failure. However, I guess, it became the historic event to suggest the liberation from Communism to Polish people after WWII.

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• Message 5

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  Posted by slawek-poland (U1820041) on Tuesday, 9th August 2005

  Thanks for your remarks.
  Certainly Stalin didn`t want to support the uprising , because he didn`t want to help his enemies ( it was obvious that AK was strongly against communism ) .
  On one hand, by leaving rebel soldiers in German hands , he let them to do this " dirty job " with their hands and get rid of Polish underground.
  On the other hand , if Russians would continue their progrss towards West , their losts would be smaller , because German forces ( though powerful ) were enganged with fight with citizens of Warsaw .
  As I remember , their explanations of stopping the offensive was the fact , that "they are awaiting their supplies from East and it has to take time ".
  From our point of view , it`s rather painful and bitter especially if we compare - simmilar circumstance - with uprising in Paris , where American forces changed their original plans of offensive , in order to support French underground .
  Kind regards Jozef and Dolphin.
  Slawek
  

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• Message 6

  , in reply to message 5.

  Posted by Jozef (U1330965) on Wednesday, 10th August 2005

  Slawek,
  it was obvious that AK was strongly against communism   I’d just like to add that the AK was not necessarily against the communists. The underground Â鶹ԼÅÄ Army comprised members of all political hues; many were too young to have well formulated political opinions at all. The only goal that united them was the will to have a free and independent Poland. And in Stalin’s eyes this made them his enemies.
  
  Just weeks before the Warsaw Rising began AK partisans helped Red Army troops liberate Wilno (Vilnius), the Red Army duly thanked them and the partisans even took part in the victory parade. Then a couple of days later NKVD forces surrounded them, disarmed them and separated the officers from the men. Henceforth they were treated as enemy POWs. A similar thing happened at the end of July in Lwow (Lviv). The fact of the matter is that anyone who had not been under Soviet command all the time was regarded to be an enemy. This also concerned soviet soldiers unfortunate enough to have been captured by the Germans. As POWs they suffered unspeakable hardship and many put up heroic resistance, but to Stalin they were even worse than enemies: they were ‘traitors’. Pity the British and American authorities were unable or perhaps unwilling to understand this.
  
  Cheers, Jozef
  
  

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• Message 7

  , in reply to message 6.

  Posted by Dirk Marinus (U1648073) on Wednesday, 10th August 2005

  Hiya there Jozef,
  
  Jozef , in your reply above you said
  
  <<<<<<<<< This also concerned soviet soldiers unfortunate enough to have been captured by the Germans. As POWs they suffered unspeakable hardship and many put up heroic resistance, but to Stalin they were even worse than enemies: they were ‘traitors’. Pity the British and American authorities were unable or perhaps unwilling to understand this.>>>>>>>
  
  
  I have been given to understand that the Allied had a good idea what would happen to the Russian POWs , but there were Allied prisoners of war who had been liberated from POW camps by the Russian Army in Russian held terrority.
  
  The big problem facing the Allies at that time was that Russia might not be willing to hand over the Allied POWs if the Allies did not hand over all those in Allied hands who could be considered Russian nationals.
  
  THence also the trouble in Austria when some 240.000 Cossacks were returned into Russian custody at Klagenfurt.
  
  
  B.t.w I left a message for you regarding an website address.
  

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• Message 8

  , in reply to message 7.

  Posted by Jozef (U1330965) on Wednesday, 10th August 2005

  Hi Dirk,
  
  Yes, I remember our very first exchange concerned the Klagenfurt story. The Allies had made an official agreement with Stalin to return all soviet citizens to the Soviet Union and Stalin undertook to return all Allied POWs found in territories overrun by Soviet troops. The thing is they didn’t have to be so damn scrupulous about it. Stalin certainly wasn’t: perhaps as many as 20,000 American POWs were never returned. On the other side, as you know, Allies even used brute force to repatriate former soviet citizens. And they certainly didn’t have too. Denis Hills (later of Uganda fame) clearly demonstrated that you could save thousands of lives by just slightly bending the rules (e.g. he classified Waffen SS Ukrainian POWs as former Polish citizens). Unfortunately others, an ambitious young Harold Macmillan included, took a radically different stance and bent over backwards to please Stalin. IMHO opinion the forced repatriations were yet another war crime that can fall under the general heading of Western Appeasement.
  
  Cheers, Jozef
  

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