Wars and Conflicts permalink
Parliamentarians in war
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Message 1.Â
Posted by Caro (U1691443) on Tuesday, 20th July 2010
I was a little surprised the other day reading of soldiers from my area killed in the second world war. As an aside somewhere it mentioned several MPs killed in the conflict. I see quite a number of our politicians served during the war - some without resigning their seats. And several of them were killed.
Is it usual for MPs to serve in war? Just as ordinary soldiers? To come from Parliament to war, rather than vice versa? Were there many British parliamentarians killed?
Cheers, Caro. -
Message 2
Posted by Allan D (U1791739) on Friday, 23rd July 2010
22 sitting UK MPs died whilst on active service or as a result of enemy action as follows:
"MPs who died during the Great War
Captain the Hon Thomas Charles Agar-Robartes
Born 22 May 1880
MP for the St Austell Division of Cornwall,
Coldstream Guards
Wounded Loos on 28 September and died on 30 September 1915
buried Lapugnoy Military Cemetery, near Bethune
Lieutenant-Colonel Guy Victor Baring
Born 26 February 1873
MP for Winchester
Coldstream Guards
kia 15 September 1916 on the Somme
buried in The Citadel New Military Cemetery, near Fricourt
Major Francis Bennett-Goldney
Born 1865
MP for Canterbury
Royal Army Service Corps
died 27 July 1918 from injuries sustained in a motor-car accident
buried at St Germain-en-Laye, near Paris
Lieutenant-Colonel Duncan Frederick Campbell, DSO
Born 24 April 1876 in Toronto
MP for North Ayrshire
Duke of Wellington’s (West Riding) Regiment
wounded at Ypres in November 1914, he died at Southwold, Suffolk on 4 September 1916
buried in Kilmarnock Cemetery, Ayrshire
Captain Harold Thomas Cawley
Born 12 June 1878
MP for Heywood Division of South East Lancashire
6th Battalion The Manchester Regiment TF
kia 24 September 1915 at Gallipoli
buried in Lancashire Landing Cemetery, Helles, Gallipoli
Captain the Hon Oswald Cawley
Born 7 October 1882
MP for Prestwich Division of Lancashire
Shropshire Yeomanry and 10th (Shropshire and Cheshire Yeomanry) Battalion The King’s (Shropshi8re Light Infantry) TF
kia 22 August 1918 near Merville
buried in Nery Communal Cemetery
Lieutenant-Colonel Percy Archer Clive
Born 1873
MP for South Herefordshire
Grenadier Guards
Kia 5 April 1918 at Bucquoy
Commemorated on the Arras Memorial
Lieutenant-Colonel Lord Ninian Edward Crichton-Stuart
Born 15 May 1883
MP for the United Boroughs of Cardiff, Cowbridge and Llantrisant
6th Battalion, Welch Regiment TF
kia 2 October 1915 at the Hohenzollern Redoubt, Loos
buried in Bethune Town Cemetery
Captain John Joseph Esmonde
Born 27 January 1862
Nationalist member for North Tipperary
Royal Army Medical Corps
Died on 17 April 1917 from “pneumonia and heart failure consequent on the strain of overworkâ€
Buried in Terryglass RC Churchyard, co Tipperary
Major Valentine Fleming, DSO
Born 17 February 1882
MP for Henley Division of Oxfordshire
Queen’s Own Oxfordshire Hussar
Kia 20 May 1917 at Guillemont Farm, near Epehy
Buried in Ste Emilie British Cemetery, Villers-Faucon
Lieutenant William Glynne Charles Gladstone
Born 14 July 1885
MP for the Kilmarnock Burghs
Royal Welch Fusiliers
Kia 13 April 1915 in trenches near Laventie
His body was brought home and buried in Hawarden Churchyard, Flintshire
Major Philip Kirkland Glazebrook, DSO
Born 24 December 1880
MP for Manchester South
King’s Shropshire Light Infantry
Kia 7 March 1918 at Bireh, near Jerusalem
Buried in the Jerusalem War Cemetery
Lieutenant Thomas Michael Kettle
Born 9 February 1880
Member for East Tyrone
Royal Dublin Fusiliers
Kia 9 September 1916 at Ginchy
Commemorated on the Thiepval Memorial
Major the Hon Charles Henry Lyell
Born 1875
MP for South Edinburgh
Royal Garrison Artillery
Died on 18 October 1918 of heart failure following influenza while serving as Assistant Military Attache
Buried at Arlington National Cemetery, Fort Myer, Virginia, USA
Lieutenant the Hon Francis Walter Stafford McLaren
Born 6 June 1886
MP for the Spalding Division of Lincolnshire
Royal Flying Corps
Died on 30 August 1917 following a flying accident during training at Montrose
Buried in Busbridge Churchyard, Surrey
Lieutenant the Hon Charles Thomas Mills
Born 13 March 1887
MP for the Uxbridge Division of Middlesex
2nd Battalion Scots Guards
kia 6 October 1915 at Hulluch
Commemorated on Loos Memorial
Captain the Hon Arthur Edward Bruce O’Neill
Born 19 September 1876
Member for Mid-Antrim
2nd Life Guards
kia 6 November 1914 at Klein Zillebeke ridge
Commemorated on the Menin Gate Memorial, Ypres
The first MP to be killed in the war
Captain the Rt Hon Neil James Archibald, PC, MP
Born 14 December 1882
MP for the Wisbech Division of Cambridgeshire
Royal Bucks Hussars
Died on 18 November 1917 from wounds received at the third Battle of Gaza
Buried in Ramleh War Cemetery, Palestine
Lieutenant and Adjutant The Viscount Quenington (Michael Hugh Hicks-Beach)
Born 19 January 1877
MP for the Tewkesbury Division of Gloucestershire
Royal Gloucestershire Hussars Yeomanry
Wounded in action at Katia, Egypt on 23 April 1916 and died before reaching hospital
Buried in Cairo New British Protestant Cemetery
Major William Hoey Kearney Redmond, Legion of Honour
Born 13 April 1861
MP for East Clare from 1892
Royal Irish Regiment
Wounded in action at Wytschaete Ridge in the Battle of Messines on 7 June 1917 and died later that day
Buried in the garden of Locre Hospice
Lieutenant-Colonel Lord Alexander George Boteville Thynne, DSO & Croix de Guerre
Born 17 February 1873
MP for Bath
Royal Wiltshire Yeomanry
Twice woundede in the Battle of the Somme in 1916, Kia 14 September 1918
Buried in Bethune Town Cemetery
Lieutenant the Hon William Lionel Charles Walrond
Born 22 May 1876
MP for the Tiverton Division of Devon
Royal Army Service Corps
Died on 3 November 1915 “from consumption of the throat contracted in France as the result of exposureâ€
Buried in Bradfield Churchyard, Uffculme, Devon."
Taken from this site:
(from a list in the House of Commons Book of Remembrance)
In addition H.H.Asquith, Prime Minister from 1908-16, and Andrew Bonar Law, Leader of the Conservative Party 1911-21 and Deputy Prime Minister from 1916-21, both lost sons in the war. -
Message 3
Posted by Amphion (U3338999) on Friday, 23rd July 2010
Interesting footnote to your post Allan.
In 1918, when the Germans began their push, or, I should say, towards the end of 1917, as a result of the Russian revolution and withdrew from the war, the Allid Armies realised that the Germans on the Eastern front would soon be heading west, two thoughts entered the minds of the Military, A)The armies in France would need many more men to fill its depleted ranks. B)When would the american army enter the fray.
Parliament decreed the Review of Exemptions Act, or that more men would be required for service abroad and increased the age limit of men.
There was also the suggestion that some of the silver badge men, (Men who had fought and been discharged after being wounded ad gassed in the war already) should be returned to the colours. This caused great friction, especially for 'our' local MP, (or 'member for this division) Liet-Col W. Ashley.
First off- There was the accusation that Lieut-Col W. Ashley had voted in the house in favour of the return of silver-badge men to the colours. although Ashley himself regarded the vituperation and misrepresentation to which he had been subject was grossly unfair as it was incomprehensible.
Secondly, Lieut-Col. W. Ashley had associated himself with the fledgling movement which called itself the Comrades of the Great War. His stand was said to be non-political, that he wanted to see that the fighting men on their return to these shores would get the best help they could, and that having somebody in parliament was the best way to achieve this aim. However, the National Federation of Discharged and Domobilised Soldiers and Sailors felt that a) there own movement was adequate to deal with the question of the needs of the soldiers/sailors etc., when they came home. b) their movement was non-political, and c) they felt that any movement with the interests of the fighting forces at heart should be run by delegates chosen from amongst the returning soldiers. The NFDDSS also had the opinion that their organisation should be run basically for the good of the rankers. They did not wish to include commissioned officers who they felt would simply take control of the whole organisation and run it to their own satisfaction. The Comrades did allow Commissioned officers although the suggestion was that their organisation was quite democratic as to who could be a member of the organising committee.
I think that it is clear, that despite what Lieut-Col Ashley may say is his motives for involvment with the Comrades movement, that there is a marked realisation amongst the various M.P.s that soon the men would return from the front, and their attitude to politics and politicians would never be the same as it once was, or was perceived to be. There is a line in the film 'Regeneration' that best describes the feeling of the time in regards to the fighting men..."This is the club to end all clubs." -
Message 4
Posted by LongWeekend (U3023428) on Friday, 23rd July 2010
Caro
It is only relatively recently that serving Regular officers have been excluded from also sitting as Memebers of Parliament. Until the end of the C19th, it was relatively common.
A couple of examples; one of James II's many acts that alienated his Army was his habit of depriving officers of their commissions if, as Memebers of Parliament, they voted against his policies. At the end of the C19th, Admiral Lord Beresford, who sat in the Conservative interest, took his professional rivalry with Fisher into the House.
Actions like Beresford's (and he had genuine grievances) had raised the question of the wisdom of allowing such obvious conflict of interest even before 1914. During the Great War, some MPs who served opted not to take part in the Commons (Archie Sinclair, Churchill's Adjudant and future Liberal leader was one), while others, most notoriously Churchill, tried to influence military events through their access to the floor of the Commons.
I am not sure when the regulation preventing Regular officers sitting as MPs was introduced, but it was some time in the early C20th.
In WWII, MPs could serve, but did refrained from speaking or voting. (Fitzroy MacLean used this to get out out the Foregign Office; denied leave to join up, he stood unopposed for a vacant Conservative seat, which the FO could not oppose, and then promptly volunteered for the Army).
Regular officers remain unable to be MPs, but MPs can have a Reserve or TA liability. A relatively large (mostly conservative, I believe) have served as reservists in recent years in Iraq and Afghanistan, but on the understanding they would not draw on their military service in political debate, and thus avoid the conflict of interest problem.
LW -
Message 5
Posted by Vizzer aka U_numbers (U2011621) on Friday, 23rd July 2010
In WWII, MPs could serve, but did refrained from speaking or voting. (Fitzroy MacLean used this to get out out the Foregign Office; denied leave to join up, he stood unopposed for a vacant Conservative seat, which the FO could not oppose, and then promptly volunteered for the Army).Â
Yes - in his memoirs 'Eastern Approaches' Fitzroy MacLean almost casually states that he noticed that the Lancaster seat was up for by-election in 1941 and so decided to throw his hat into the ring (as one does) and win the contest (of course) and then promptly joined the SAS (doesn't everyone) and immediatley saw action in North Africa and Yugoslavia (naturally).
A true cavalier adventurer of the old school. -
Message 6
Posted by Allan D (U1791739) on Friday, 23rd July 2010
Randolph Churchill served with the 4th Queen's Own Hussars, his father's regiment, in North Africa as well as in the SAS alongside Maclean in Yugoslavia after being elected (unopposed) for Preston in 1940. Other MPs to serve in WWII were Quintin Hogg (later Lord Hailsham) who had been elected for Oxford in 1938 and John Profumo who was elected for Kettering in 1940.
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Message 7
Posted by Caro (U1691443) on Saturday, 24th July 2010
Thank you all for that - it is most interesting. Of course none of them (British or NZ) did serve as 'ordinary soldiers' (privates) and indeed one of ours was a brigadier. Brigadier James Hargest had a school named after him in the town where I was at secondary school. James Hargest College. I didn't go there, but my boyfriend when we were in Year 13 did.
Out of the nine men who went in WWII overseas from NZ, five of them were killed. That seems a very high percentage.
Cheers, Caro. -
Message 8
Posted by LongWeekend (U3023428) on Monday, 26th July 2010
Caro
I don't think it is too much of surprise that MPs (yours, ours, Aussies, whatever) served as officers rather than private soldiers - if you have the presence to get selected as a candidate and then persuade several thousand people to vote for you rather than the other fellows, you're probably officer material!
And in British Commonwealth forces in WWII, an officer was twice as likely to become a casualty than an OR, so it was an uncomfortable honour.
New Zealand's high casualty rate was due in part to the valour of her soldiers (recognised by both sides) and to the depressing statistic that most casualties happen to frontline soldiers - those in the fighting divisions. New Zealand only had divisional level troops - none of the safer higher formation troops and hardly any Lines of Communication elements - so her contribution was where it was most dangerous.
Incidentally, Hargest had a headstart to Brigadier, he started the war as a Lieutenant Colonel (having commanded a battalion in the Great War). I have heard good things about Hargest, I believe he was spoken of a possible future Prime Minister or Governor General, but was killed in Normandy.
I think that it was easier for Canadian, Australian and NZ politicians to reach high rank in the two World Wars, given the Militia system. Britain, with its relative large Regular Army needed fewer "amateur" commanders at high-level.
However, I know of at least one British MP who also became a Brigadier during the war - John Profumo, who was elected in 1940. Ironically, he wasn't promoted Brigadier until after he lost his seat in the 1945 General election.
In the 1950s, the Conservative Government had four Ministers who had been Brigadiers. Apart from Profumo, they were Enoch Powell (elected 1950 - in 1945 he voted Labour!), Selwyn Lloyd (elected 1945) and Anthony Head (also 1945), and ex-Regular officer. They had all been staff officers, although Head and Profumo had served at regimental level earlier in the war.
The National Liberals persuaded AVM Don Bennett to stand as their candidate in a May 1945 by-election, much to Portal's disgust (he thought it was disloyal when the war wasn't over), but he lost the seat in the General Election and never won another.
Labour, remarkably, fielded the highest-ranking candidate at that general Election. Lt Gen Sir Noel Mason-MacFarlane (Mason-Mac), who had been Gort's Director of Military Intelligence, Head of the Military Mission to Moscow, Governor of Gibralter and Head of the Military Government in Italy stood against Brendan Bracken and beat him. He had to retire through ill-health the following year, though.
Cheers
LW -
Message 9
Posted by Allan D (U1791739) on Tuesday, 27th July 2010
they were Enoch Powell (elected 1950 - in 1945 he voted Labour!)Â
I was rather dubious about this and so looked up the revelant period in Simon Heffer's monumentual biography of Powell "Like the Roman" published in 1998. Powell was serving in India at the time and did not vote in person but appointed his father to cast a proxy vote. In December 1944 he had instructed him to cast his vote
against the candidate who undertakes to support Churchill. A coalition may be needed for winning the war; it is a hindrance in winning the peace. On their prewar record the Conservatives are every bit as nasty traitors as the Labour Party and they will have the additional disadvantage of tending to be bound by some of their pronouncements during the warÂ
(Heffer, "Like the Roman", p.99)
Presumably this instruction stayed in place despite the fact that the Coalition broke up before the election. Heffer goes on to add that Powell thought that his fellow countrymen (an women) had made the correct decision in electing Attlee. Yet at the same time he also stated
I was born a Tory...a Tory is a person who regards authority as immanent in institutionsÂ
although presumably not in the institution of the Coalition Government!
When he returned to the UK in February 1946 he got a job with the Parliamentary Secretariat of Conservative Central Office (later the Conservative Research Department) by the simple expedient of ringing up Central Office and asking to speak to the Chairman (who was unavailable - he spoke to the Deputy Chairman instead). Almost exactly a year later he stood as the Conservative candidate in the hopeless seat of Normanton (represented later by, among others, Ed Balls) where he was crushed by the weight of Labour votes (79.8%-17.8% respective share of the vote) although he did manage to achieve a modest 3.3% swing in the Conservatives' favour on the basis of the 1945 result. He was elected for Wolverhampton South-West three years later (again in February) with a slender majority of 691.
Powell more famously voted Labour, this time by postal vote, almost 29 years after the first occasion in the February 1974 general election when he dismissed the then Prime Minister's, Edward Heath, calling of a snap election as 'fraudulent'. In accordance with his wishes he was buried in his Royal Warwickshire brigadier's uniform in Warwick Parish Church on 18 February 1998. -
Message 10
Posted by LongWeekend (U3023428) on Thursday, 29th July 2010
Allan D
Umm. So I was right, his vote did go to Labour in July 1945, even if he didn't mean it?
LW -
Message 11
Posted by LongWeekend (U3023428) on Thursday, 29th July 2010
Vizzer
It is a nice story, but Fitzroy MacLean was being a little coy.
He didn't just happen on a vacancy. He had links to the Conservative Party and Central Office knew exactly who they were letting have the seat. Similarly, Churchill knew exactly what he was getting (an experienced diplomat with form on the southern border of the USSR) when he picked him for the Tito mission.
Layforce, and as a result the original SAS, did rather well for parlimentarians. Apart from Randolph Churchill and Fitroy MacLean, there was also Phillip Dunne who had been an MP until 1937, and George Jellicoe, who had become a member of the House of Lords just before the war.
John Verney, in his wonderful "Going to the War" meges the SAS MPs into the single character Bomfrey (and controversially christens the SAS in the book "Bomfrey's Boys"). Bomfrey's more preposterous outbursts would seem to based on young Churchill.
LW -
Message 12
Posted by Allan D (U1791739) on Thursday, 29th July 2010
LW
Heffer doesn't say so explicitly but Powell's parents lived in Birmingham and probably voted in the Yardley constituency where, although there was a three-cornered fight, the Liberal lost his deposit and the incumbent Conservative candidate was evicted by a massive swing as Labour won by a margin of 2-1. If Powell's father respected his son's wishes he would have cast his proxy vote for Labour, whether he did so regarding his own vote is a different matter.
What is interesting is Powell's view of Churchill in 1944 as "erratic". This view was undoubtedly reciprocated when Churchill read Powell's paper produced in the Research Department a few years later on how to reconquer India after it had been granted independence.
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