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Pick a favourite leader for each home nation

• Message 1.Μύ

  Posted by ThaneofCarrick (U1810516) on Saturday, 6th August 2005

  Hello all,
  
  Just wondering if we could all agree on a leader/commander/general who best represented the spirit of each of the home nations.
  
  Lets say one Englishman, Scotsman, Welshman and Irishman form any period in time, with one good reason why they represent the best of that nation.
  
  Looking forward to your answers!

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• Message 2

  , in reply to message 1.

  Posted by Huscarl (U1753368) on Saturday, 6th August 2005

  Good post, Thane! Do I know you under a different name?
  
  I suppose it depends upon how deeply we research, whether we take a nationalistic viewpoint, or whether we're going on the 'touristy' stereotypes of national identity? But here goes;-
  
  England;- Winston Churchill? Duke of Wellington(despite being Irish born)? Adm.Nelson. Outstanding war leaders, enough said really. (Or J.Lennon? Shakespeare?)
  
  Ireland;- Michael Collins- Easter rising 1916, etc. Inspired his people to at least attempt to overthrow British rule in Ireland, leading to the eventual recognition of the Irish Republic. (Or recently- Richard Harris? Peter O'Toole?)
  
  Wales;- Owen Glendower c.1400. He led large scale and serious armed invasions into England during the reign of, and against, King Henry IV. (Or LLlewelyn the Great the 'first Prince of Wales' in the late 1100's. Richard Burton? Anthony Hopkins?)
  
  Scotland;- William Wallace c.1297. He was at one time the 'sole guardian of Scotland' after raising the south Scots to rebel against Ed I's hammer-like rule(Andrew Moray's efforts to the north faltered due to his early death in those struggles). (Or Robert Burns? Billy Connolly? Sean Connery? Tony Blair???????)

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• Message 3

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  Posted by steveP (U1775134) on Monday, 8th August 2005

  For England, other military/politcal leaders might be Alfred, Harold II, Edward I & III, Elizabeth, Oliver Cromwell, either Pitt, quite a number of names. In other fields possibly Wilberforce, Brunel (although half-French and educated in France he seems to have definately identified himself as English), Beverage, to name a few.
  
  A more awkward situation might be for people who might be considered great Britons. For instance Lloyd George, definately Welsh but his main impact was on the wider field of British society.
  
  Would Arthur, if such a figure existed, be a potential Welsh?
  
  Steve

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• Message 4

  , in reply to message 1.

  Posted by arnaldalmaric (U1756653) on Monday, 8th August 2005

  Okay, here goes,
  
  England: Cromwell (Oliver), he was Englands most interesting leader, still manages to excite admiration and hatred in almost equal amounts.
  
  Scotland: James the 6th for me. (Yes I am English, but a tip of the hat to the Stuarts). United the two warring nations.
  
  Wales: Offa, he built the dyke to keep the Welsh from escaping. (If David Morgan reads this I'm in big trouble )
  
  Ireland: Brian Boru (sp?).
  
  Cheers AA.

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• Message 5

  , in reply to message 1.

  Posted by Tim of Acleah (U1736633) on Tuesday, 9th August 2005

  For England Alfred the Great, Aethelflaed Lady of the Mercians, Athelstan, Edmund Ironside, Oliver Cromwell, Blake, Duke of Marlborough, Bill Slim.
  
  I will leave the other nations to their own respective kindreds.
  
  Best overall Englishman Alfred and best overall English woman his duaghter Aethelflaed.
  

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• Message 6

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  Posted by JimdalftheTorquoise (U1823373) on Tuesday, 9th August 2005

  England: Horatio Nelson
  
  Scotland: Yer man Wallace
  
  Wales: Wales has a history now, does it??? I have been asleep too long
  
  Ireland: I hesitate to call it a home nation, as it is where I live and I am slightly republican, but for Northen Irealand (Unacceptably a home nation) I must say... drumroll please... Field Marshall Montgomery, the greatest Commander of WW2!!!

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• Message 7

  , in reply to message 6.

  Posted by JimdalftheTorquoise (U1823373) on Tuesday, 9th August 2005

  I'm Sorry, but there is no edit button so... what I meant to type was... Northern Ireland (Undeniably a ΒιΆΉΤΌΕΔ Nation)

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• Message 8

  , in reply to message 6.

  Posted by bobbykennedy (U1760013) on Tuesday, 9th August 2005

  England: I suppose it has to be Churchill, for both his qualities and weaknesses. His dogged determination for resistance and pride in his country combined with his blinkered view of things such as Empire and awful political opinions very much exemplify the English spirit.
  
  Scotland:Robert Burns. His poems wonderfully celebrated the Scottish nation and Scottish people, without getting too caught up in Nationalism.
  
  Wales:I don't know any Welshman who were much involved in Wales. But for the brilliant things he did for British Society as a whole I'd have to go with Aneurin Bevan.
  
  Ireland: For the whole Ireland I'd have gone with Connolly, but it now seems we're talking about Northern Ireland. Probably John Hume. Because at least he respected the other side and didn't anyone. He probably wouldn't be very good at representing Unionists but there we are.

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• Message 9

  , in reply to message 8.

  Posted by DaveMBA (U1360771) on Tuesday, 9th August 2005

  Scotland has to be Bruce - an effective General, monarch and strategist. Wallace finished up having is guts dragged out.

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• Message 10

  , in reply to message 6.

  Posted by Tim of Acleah (U1736633) on Wednesday, 17th August 2005

  I would put Uncle Bill Slim ahead of Montgomery, even the Americans rate him!
  

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• Message 11

  , in reply to message 1.

  Posted by Tim of Acleah (U1736633) on Wednesday, 17th August 2005

  Thane
  
  I never actually put the reason for chosing Alfred and that is firstly his refusal to give up. He could have sloped off to Rome to live in confortable retirement in 878 AD but he did not. And secondly for his organisational skills. After Eddington the way he put Wessex on a war footing rasing a standing army of 25,000 (not exceeded until Cromwell) with his fortified towns, watchtoweras, signalling togther with reorganising the taxation system, the church, education, translating books into English ... truelly amazing.
  

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• Message 12

  , in reply to message 11.

  Posted by TonyG (U1830405) on Thursday, 18th August 2005

  Great topic.
  
  England - either Alfred, for the reasons Tim has mentioned, or Wellington (he counted himself as English)who was the greatest general Britain ever produced.
  
  Scotland - has to be Wallace (William, not Jim). Even though he was ultimately unsuccessful, he always stuck to his principles and Bruce would have got nowhere without Wallace layin gthe groundwork.
  
  Wales - Owen Glyndower (sp?)
  
  Ireland - Brian Boru. Didn't he unite Ireland (briefly)?

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• Message 13

  , in reply to message 1.

  Posted by legion_dwarf (U1981200) on Monday, 5th September 2005

  Monty, William Wallace,don't know any welsh or irish can some1 tell me some irish coz i hate not knowing the best of country

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• Message 14

  , in reply to message 13.

  Posted by Ozymandias (U1727865) on Monday, 5th September 2005

  Legion_dwarf asked: "...Monty, William Wallace, don't know any welsh or irish [leader/commander/general] can some1 tell me some irish coz i hate not knowing the best of country..."
  
  Aside from the Duke of Wellington I can't think of any!
  
  Ireland is not reknowned for kicking other nation's asses. As a small island with a small population (about one fifteenth that of the island of Britain) we were never going to conquer the world and, of course, had no aspirations to do so. No, our military heroes are either freedom fighters/rebels or else 'wild geese' who fought in other nations armies and navies and other nations wars.
  
  I suppose I could mention Brian Boru, Hugh O'Neill, Donal O'Sullivan Bere, Patrick Sarsfield,.......
  
  Best Wishes, Oz.

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• Message 15

  , in reply to message 2.

  Posted by gooserss (U1983611) on Tuesday, 6th September 2005

  hey- what about blair mayne ?

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• Message 16

  , in reply to message 15.

  Posted by Ozymandias (U1727865) on Tuesday, 6th September 2005

  hey- what about blair mayne ?Μύ
  
  gooser,
  
  Relax - don't be so sensitive! If you want to include Blair Mayne as a leader/ commander/general then go ahead.
  
  I know he rose to the rank of Colonel and is reputedly the most decorate soldier of World War Two, but does he qualify under A_J_A's original criteria? Which nation do you think Colonel 'Paddy' Mayne should be representing?
  
  Best Wishes, Oz.

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• Message 17

  , in reply to message 16.

  Posted by gooserss (U1983611) on Tuesday, 6th September 2005

  hey oz.
  mayne would represent n.ireland as one of the greatest wartime leaders. the most decorated british officer in ww2, would have won the vc but for his at times mad behaviour. only didnt rise higher as the sas were a new unit thoroughly frowned upon by members of the regular army.
  i agree about slim, much better leader then montgomery, who losses a loty of points due to his arrogance and a poor showing in the mormandy campaign.

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• Message 18

  , in reply to message 1.

  Posted by Our Man in Mexico (U1661159) on Wednesday, 7th September 2005

  England: - King Alfred, King Edmund II and King Harold II
  
  Wales: - Gruffyd ap Llewelyn and Owain Glyndwr
  
  Cheers
  
  Craig

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• Message 19

  , in reply to message 18.

  Posted by Stoggler (U1647829) on Wednesday, 7th September 2005

  Agree with you on Owain Glyndwr there Craig for Wales. Also the two prince Llywelyns in the 13th century (Llywelyn ab Iorwerth a.k.a. Llywelyn Fawr, and Llywelyn ap Gruffydd a.k.a. Llywelyn ein Llyw Olaf). From a more recent viewpoint, how about Saunders Lewis...?
  
  As for Scotland, I'd plump for Robert the Bruce - king of Scotland at Bannockburn which confirmed Scotland's independence for a few hundred years.
  
  Stu

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• Message 20

  , in reply to message 18.

  Posted by Tim of Acleah (U1736633) on Thursday, 8th September 2005

  Craig
  
  How about Athelstan for a leader?

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• Message 21

  , in reply to message 20.

  Posted by Our Man in Mexico (U1661159) on Friday, 9th September 2005

  Tim,
  
  I am in total agreement with you also about King Aethelstan and how about King Henry II? I was tempted to include King Edwin of Northumbria and King Offa of Mecia.
  
  Cheers
  
  Craig

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• Message 22

  , in reply to message 21.

  Posted by Tim of Acleah (U1736633) on Saturday, 10th September 2005

  Craig
  
  would agree with you about Edwin and Offa, to the extent that we know enough about them. It is interesting that Edwin appears to have had control of Anglesey and that the next Englsih king to do the same was Edward Longshanks.
  
  I am not so certain about Henry II though.
  
  By the way I am surprised that you arew not joining in the debate I am having with Nick and Hes about those Nasty Normans.
  

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• Message 23

  , in reply to message 22.

  Posted by Binge-Drinker (U1655287) on Sunday, 11th September 2005

  Craig
  
  
  By the way I am surprised that you arew not joining in the debate I am having with Nick and Hes about those Nasty Normans.
  Μύ
  
  What is the source of your statement !
  
  William the Conqueror
  
  A great King who was mightier and wiser than any of his forerunners; a pious man that built many ministers and loved God's servants. He was just and created a peace which is often forgotten, his might enabled to hold Normandy and Britain, won England and Maine, made Scotland and Wales bow to him, and had he lived longer would have would Ireland by his mere renown.
  
  Cheers Nick - Anglo-Norman

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• Message 24

  , in reply to message 9.

  Posted by expat32 (U2025313) on Sunday, 11th September 2005

  Scotland has to be Bruce - an effective General, monarch and strategist. Wallace finished up having is guts dragged out. Μύ
  Thats quite correct Dave. I mean given the fact that Ole Bobby was the last Scots leader born with a pair of balls.

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• Message 25

  , in reply to message 23.

  Posted by Tim of Acleah (U1736633) on Sunday, 11th September 2005

  Nick
  
  "Truly in his time men and much oppression and many injuries
  
  He had castles made and oppressed poor men
  the king was very hard
  and took of his underlings many marks of gold,
  and many more hundreds of silver,
  that he took by weight, unjustly,
  from his people for little need,.
  Into averice was he fallen
  and greediness he loved overall."
  ASC
  
  β€œThe devistation … which he [William] now ordered was inspired by a more cold blooded design.”
  
  β€œSo terrible was the visitation that its results were still apparent 20 years later.”
  
  β€œAn 11th C campaign was inevitably brutal, but the methods here displayed were widely seen as exceptional and beyond excuse, even by those otherwise fervent admirer of the Norman king.”
  
  β€œA writer from the north of England supplies more precise details of the horrible incidents of the destruction”
  
  An annalist from Evesham tells how refugees in the last state of destituion poured into the little town”
  
  β€œthe Doomsday book shows the persisting effects of the terrible visitation, and there is evidence that these endured until the reign of Stephen”
  
  The devistation, though to a lesser extent, spread as far west as Merseyside, and as far south as Derby” All the above quotes taken from β€˜William the Conqueror’ by David Douglas
  
  Ordericus Vitals writing of William β€œone who was guilty of such wholesale massacre … I assert moreover that such barbarous homicide should not pass unpunished.”
  
  β€œI have persecuted the natives of England beyond all reason. I have cruelly oppressed them; many I unjustly disinherited; inumerable multitudes perished through me by fire and the sword and so became the BARBEROUS murderer of many thousands” William the Conqueror.
  
  regards
  
  Tim

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• Message 26

  , in reply to message 22.

  Posted by Our Man in Mexico (U1661159) on Monday, 12th September 2005

  Hi Tim,
  
  I haven't got access to the intenet at home at the minute as my PC is broken so thats why I have rarely posted on the boards since they reopened. I read the discussions at university but I havent got time to post. My PC at home should be fixed hopefully by the end of the week and then I'll be able to post and join in the debate.
  
  Cheers
  
  Craig

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• Message 27

  , in reply to message 25.

  Posted by Binge-Drinker (U1655287) on Monday, 12th September 2005

  Nick
  
  "Truly in his time men and much oppression and many injuries
  
  regards
  
  TimΜύ
  
  But he was not nasty ! as you stated Tim, please stick to facts.
  
  I am still at odds with your view of someone you think as a Barbarian beat Harold II in battle by outwitting him. I actually think Harold II was in some ways a worthy although dishonest opponent.
  
  Or is it just your love for Saxon propaganda, I tend to take Germanic gossip with a pinch of Norman salt.
  
  Cheers Anglo-Norman

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• Message 28

  , in reply to message 27.

  Posted by Tim of Acleah (U1736633) on Tuesday, 13th September 2005

  Nick
  
  "Truly in his time men and much oppression and many injuries"
  
  is a quote from the ASC so I am sticking to facts.
  
  "I am still at odds with your view of someone you think as a Barbarian beat Harold II in battle by outwitting him. I actually think Harold II was in some ways a worthy although dishonest opponent"
  
  Barbarians have beaton civilised generals on more than one occasion.
  
  Actually the term I think was barbaric and was from quotes from OV and from William himself. Plus quotes from various historians, considerably more reliable than Wace or Geoffrey of Monmouth too.
  
  regards
  
  Tim
  
  
  

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• Message 29

  , in reply to message 28.

  Posted by Binge-Drinker (U1655287) on Tuesday, 13th September 2005

  Dear Roast Beef
  Can you name a historian of that time more reliable on Norman history than Wace can you ?
  
  So William kicked some Saxon butts, what a pity he is not around today, he might get some moving of the dole queue.
  
  Cheers Nick
  
  

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• Message 30

  , in reply to message 29.

  Posted by Binge-Drinker (U1655287) on Tuesday, 13th September 2005

  Dear Tim I quote the following on Wace by Eugene Mason
  
  "Wace, moreover, was Norman born and Norman
  bred, and he inherited the possessions of his race--a love of fact,
  the power of clear thought, the appreciation of simplicity, the
  command of elegance in form. Such a spirit indeed was his as in a
  finer type had already expressed itself in Caen in the two noble
  abbeys, under whose shadow he passed the greater part of his life,
  the dignified and sternly simple Abbaye-aux-Hommes of William the
  Conqueror and the graceful, richly ornamented Abbaye-aux-Dames of
  Queen Matilda. Sincerity and truth Wace ever aims at, but he
  embellishes his narrative with countless imaginative details."

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• Message 31

  , in reply to message 29.

  Posted by Tim of Acleah (U1736633) on Wednesday, 14th September 2005

  Dear Frog
  
  None of the Norman historians are reliable but some are somewhat earlier.
  
  The dole queues in GB are considerably less than in the rest of Europe. GB after all has trhe forth highest GDP in Europe, or did last time I checked.
  
  regrds
  
  Tim
  

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• Message 32

  , in reply to message 30.

  Posted by Tim of Acleah (U1736633) on Wednesday, 14th September 2005

  Dear Nick
  
  who is Eugene Mason?
  
  By the way I look forward to hearing from you on the Channel Isles.
  
  I will give Wace some more thought when I have time.
  
  Somewhere I have a copy of a medievil picture of the Battle of Hastings that shows the English behind a palisade. I understand this is from Wace's account but I am not clear as to whether Wace was wrong or misunderstood.
  
  cheers
  
  Tim
  
  
  

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• Message 33

  , in reply to message 1.

  Posted by Stepney Boy (U1760040) on Wednesday, 14th September 2005

  This not ment as a cop-out but there is so many in Ireland, Wales, Scotland and Britain that are part of the history of our iselands that I for one do not know where to start.
  But then I'm proud to say I am biase.
  Regards
  Spike

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• Message 34

  , in reply to message 1.

  Posted by Stepney Boy (U1760040) on Wednesday, 14th September 2005

  This not ment as a cop-out but there is so many in Ireland, Wales, Scotland and Britain that are part of the history of our iselands that I for one do not know where to start.
  But then I'm proud to say I am biase.
  Regards
  Spike Hello all,
  
  Just wondering if we could all agree on a leader/commander/general who best represented the spirit of each of the home nations.
  
  Lets say one Englishman, Scotsman, Welshman and Irishman form any period in time, with one good reason why they represent the best of that nation.
  
  Looking forward to your answers!Μύ

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• Message 35

  , in reply to message 32.

  Posted by Binge-Drinker (U1655287) on Wednesday, 14th September 2005

  
  
  Dear Nick
  
  who is Eugene Mason?
  
  By the way I look forward to hearing from you on the Channel Isles.
  
  I will give Wace some more thought when I have time.
  
  Somewhere I have a copy of a medievil picture of the Battle of Hastings that shows the English behind a palisade. I understand this is from Wace's account but I am not clear as to whether Wace was wrong or misunderstood.
  
  cheers
  
  Tim
  
  
  Μύ
  
  Dear Roast Beef
  
  Eugene Mason was a historian and translator of French works into English.
  
  When you visit the Channel Islands you must let me show you some good Norman hospitality !
  
  You have again made an error by calling me a frog to be more precise I am a crapaud
  
  
  
  Wace is also a good source of information on Norman warfare so perhaps you might like to read his "Roman de Rou"
  available from Boydell Press for 19.99
  
  
  Cheers Mon vi

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  Report message35

• Message 36

  , in reply to message 35.

  Posted by Tim of Acleah (U1736633) on Thursday, 15th September 2005

  Nick
  
  "You have again made an error by calling me a frog to be more precise I am a crapaud"
  
  
  I have no idea what a crapaud is so I will settle on semi-frog. Actually I knew you were not technically a frog so it was a deliberate error, but my only one.
  
  I am genuily disapointed that you have not given your opinions on either Normany or the Channel Isles.
  
  Will reply later on Wace and also on 'Norman poisoners'.
  
  regards
  
  Tim
  

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• Message 37

  , in reply to message 35.

  Posted by Tim of Acleah (U1736633) on Sunday, 18th September 2005

  Nick
  
  I have now posted on Wace as promised and also on the possible use of poison in 11th C Notrmandy but I have put them under my posting on Normandy and the Channel Isles which seemed more appropriate than this one.
  
  regards
  
  Tim
  

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• Message 38

  , in reply to message 20.

  Posted by Alaric the Goth (U1826823) on Friday, 23rd September 2005

  I would agree with those who have chosen Alfred for the English. I think King Oswald of Bernicia deserves an honourable nemntion though, as he defeated a larger force led by Cadwallon of Gwynedd at the Battle of Hefenfeld in (IIRC) 633AD. He ascribed the victory to God, and afterwards therefore called for Scottish monks from Iona to bring Christianity to his Northumbrian people (who had it brought to them before, it must be said, when Edwin of Deira was king, but had lapsed somewhat...). This led on to the conversion of other Anglo-Saxon kingdoms.
  
  For Ireland I would suggest Niall of the Nine Hostages.
  
  Wales: Owain Glyndwr or Llewelyn Mawr. Or Arthur, if you think he's historical AND Welsh!
  
  Scotland: what about Macbeth : the real one was an effective 11th century king?

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